Thoughts On This Scenario

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Michael1511

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In the past, I have posed this scenario to different people within my church, including the Priest, and have gotten different answers. I was just wondering what everyone here may think about it. As I understand it, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, if you die with mortal sin on your soul, you are condemned to spend eternity in hell. So, suppose there is a man who has lived very piously and has tried to follow sacramental life as much as possible. He attends Mass as much as possible, and even confesses his venial sins every week, as he rarely commits a mortal sin. One evening after leaving confession, he tells a lie that amounts to a mortal sin. He gets in his car, and is killed at the next intersection without having confessed this mortal sin and without having time to make an act of perfect contrition. Is this man condemned to hell with Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy and the like? According the teachings of the church, as I understand it, yes he is. I, however, cannot believe that everything we have ever been taught about a just and merciful God would allow this to happen. What do you think?
 
Well, the thief on the cross never even apologized before his
death. Jesus promised him paradise. We don’t know what went on between that man and God before the crash. It’s up to God what He does, He doesn’t have to follow anybody’s rules. This
is similar to the question that has been bothering me: Is there
love in hell? Your question seems to be: Is there faith in hell?We have to try to get our minds off these questions, and look toward the finish line. These 2 questions will distract us, and waste valuable time. We know what we have to do.
 
For the OP: I think your hypothetical question is a non-starter. I can think of no faithful Catholic, such as you describe, who would commit a deliberate mortal sin in the fashion you have laid out.

All this odd little story can really do is create doubt and fear in the hearts of faithful Catholics. How is this helpful? Also, your scenario tells us that God is an unjust judge who cares nothing for those for whom he died on the cross to save. Hardly likely.

If I was you, I’d ask myself why I have to invent unlikely situations like this which do no earthly or heavenly good.

A warning to us all: anyone who gets some sort of glee out of posing “gotcha” questions (not saying that you do) ought to get himself to a confessor as fast as his feet will carry him to beg for help and forgiveness.
 
Why is it that I cannot get an answer for this simple question? Is that the correct teaching of the Catholic Church or not? My Priest explains it differently than Fahter Serpa, please see here, Della:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=141754&highlight=scenario

I am not trying to scare anyone. If the sceanrio is too unrealistic, then supppose I die with a few mortal sins on my souls: lying, not going to Mass, thoughts of lust…am I or am I not going to spend eternity in hell? Stop being so defensive…what is the correct teaching?
 
To start with, only God knows whether people like Hitler and Ted Bundy are for sure in hell. The Church has the general teaching that un-repented mortal sin will land ones fanny in hell, but when it comes to particular individuals no one including the Church knows where they ended up. Further more the Church has never stated that a particular individual is in hell. The thing is that the Church is responsible enough to teach us that the risk of ending in hell is not one to be taken lightly. No one really knows what the individual and God might decide in the split second between life and death. No one has come back from the grave to tell us. There is no simple answer there is just the wise answer. Don’t risk losing heaven.
 
If you die with urepented mortal sin, the Church teaches that you will go to Hell.

However, we can not tell whether any individual person has committed mortal sin, or whether they have repented.

Presumably, a good Catholic who has committed Mortal sins, would repent immediately, and intend confession.

Remember, if you repent, and intend to go to confession, you are not comdemned.

Therefore your example is a bit of a strawman.

God Bless
 
By no means is this man condemned to eternity in hell. He has received his first grace during his conversion, contrition, penance and satisfaction. Assuming he was baptized he would simply be purged of that sin in purgatory while awaiting his entrace into heaven BECAUSE of his first grace received. At least thats what I understand it to be.
 
Michael1511 said:
In the past, I have posed this scenario to different people within my church, including the Priest, and have gotten different answers. I was just wondering what everyone here may think about it. As I understand it, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, if you die with mortal sin on your soul, you are condemned to spend eternity in hell. So, suppose there is a man who has lived very piously and has tried to follow sacramental life as much as possible. He attends Mass as much as possible, and even confesses his venial sins every week, as he rarely commits a mortal sin. One evening after leaving confession, he tells a lie that amounts to a mortal sin. He gets in his car, and is killed at the next intersection without having confessed this mortal sin and without having time to make an act of perfect contrition. Is this man condemned to hell with Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy and the like? According the teachings of the church, as I understand it, yes he is. I, however, cannot believe that everything we have ever been taught about a just and merciful God would allow this to happen. What do you think?
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It’s easy to make up all sorts of scenarios – they don’t prove anything.

How likely is it that a person such as you describe would actually exist – a man who lives a saintly life and suddenly decides to commit a mortal sin and has no qualms of conscience about it?

A person who dies unrepentant with a mortal sin on his soul, does indeed condemn himself, but your scenario so unlikely as to be nonexistant in reality.
 
I feel as if you brush by this man’s mortal sin as if it is a minor detail in his life. Keep in mind, no one commits a mortal sin by accident. A person committing a mortal sin whole-heartedly chooses to make a separation from God’s love. I’ve been taught that you are judged on the condition of your soul at the moment of your death. But the condition of your soul is your choice, not something that happens by chance. Only God knows this man’s intentions and level of repetence with this lie; no man could ever judge it. That’s why we’re only put in charge of ourselves - judge not. II’ve also been taught that anyone in hell has chosen hell, an eternal separation from God. Someone who has chosen God doesn’t have to worry about the possibility of hell.
 
When you cooperate with grace in the past that helps to guarantee extra grace in the future. Thus a life of continued cooperation with God’s grace would make it virtually impossible for one to lose his soul at the end, since he will have access to far more grace than your average soul.
 
Michael1511 said:
Why is it that I cannot get an answer for this simple question? Is that the correct teaching of the Catholic Church or not? My Priest explains it differently than Fahter Serpa, please see here, Della:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=141754&highlight=scenario

I am not trying to scare anyone. If the sceanrio is too unrealistic, then supppose I die with a few mortal sins on my souls: lying, not going to Mass, thoughts of lust…am I or am I not going to spend eternity in hell? Stop being so defensive…what is the correct teaching?
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I’m am hardly being defensive, I am explaining a truth to you and letting you know that such hypothetical scenarios are pointless. Why are they pointless? Because the artificial set up of the situation (by the one presenting the hypothetical question) is not realistic. Period.

As to anyone going to hell with mortal sin on his soul, yes, that is possible. Are you going to hell, is another question which only God knows. But, one does not need a priest in an emergency situation to be forgiven of mortal sin. What one needs to do is make a perfect act of contrition. This means being truly sorrowful for committing mortal sin.

I would also say that anyone with a cavalier attitude towards mortal sin or who is trying to find a way around having to confess mortal sin, isn’t very likely to be truly sorrowful for his sins. And that kind of attitude is something we all need to guard against.
 
Della said:
I’m am hardly being defensive, I am explaining a truth to you and letting you know that such hypothetical scenarios are pointless. .
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Hypothetical scenarios are actually useful learning tools. I believe that’s why Fr. Serpa answered the question. I ask this question a month ago and non-answers eventually wore me down to the point I quit responding.

The question remains. If I may put words in Michael’s mouth, what happens when an otherwise holy man commits a mortal sin and dies immediately, without contrition? Should he expect to spend eternity in hell?

The question is really very simple. I suspect the answer isn’t.
 
Ramalama said:
Hypothetical scenarios are actually useful learning tools. I believe that’s why Fr. Serpa answered the question. I ask this question a month ago and non-answers eventually wore me down to the point I quit responding.
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As a person who made a very good living constructing and computerizing scenarios, let me say that hypothetical scenarios are** not **useful learning tools. A scenario’s usefulness is directly related to its ability to reflect reality. That’s why in almost all computer-controlled simulations, you use real incidents and environments and only tolerate scenario changes at the margin.
 
vern_humphrey said:
That’s why in almost all computer-controlled simulations, you use real incidents and environments and only tolerate scenario changes at the margin.
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Do you mean we should only discuss this if I can find a real, holy human being that died without contrition during commission of a mortal sin?

I’ll start looking for this guy. It’s really going to be tough to see if he was contrite at the moment of death though. Sure wish we could use a hypothetical situation.

I somehow think this question makes the people here really uncomfortable. The responses insist on addressing the margins of the problem rather than the heart of it.

At least Fr. Serpa had the (insert your own body part(s) here) to address the problem.
 
Ramalama said:
Hypothetical scenarios are actually useful learning tools. I believe that’s why Fr. Serpa answered the question. I ask this question a month ago and non-answers eventually wore me down to the point I quit responding.

The question remains. If I may put words in Michael’s mouth, what happens when an otherwise holy man commits a mortal sin and dies immediately, without contrition? Should he expect to spend eternity in hell?

The question is really very simple. I suspect the answer isn’t.
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What would happen if an otherwise healthy man decided to have an overdose of cocaine and died?

Its no use saying “well he was healthy all his life before the overdose” therefore he can’t be dead.

Mortal sin kills the soul and is a rejection of God. The answer is simple: anyone dying in a state of unrepentant mortal sin would go to hell.

Peace and God Bless!
 
Michael1511 said:
In the past, I have posed this scenario to different people within my church, including the Priest, and have gotten different answers. I was just wondering what everyone here may think about it. As I understand it, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, if you die with mortal sin on your soul, you are condemned to spend eternity in hell. So, suppose there is a man who has lived very piously and has tried to follow sacramental life as much as possible. He attends Mass as much as possible, and even confesses his venial sins every week, as he rarely commits a mortal sin. One evening after leaving confession, he tells a lie that amounts to a mortal sin. He gets in his car, and is killed at the next intersection without having confessed this mortal sin and without having time to make an act of perfect contrition. Is this man condemned to hell with Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy and the like? According the teachings of the church, as I understand it, yes he is. I, however, cannot believe that everything we have ever been taught about a just and merciful God would allow this to happen. What do you think?
Click to expand...

Without repentance, there is no salvation. It is not clear that someone who has been unrepentant for fifty years is essentially different from the person who is unrepentant for fifty seconds - if they die unrepentant, that’s it. The whole thing is ultimately mysterious. I think it’s better to examine oneself, & to pray for others.​

Would God allow precisely that to happen ? I don’t know.
 
According to the Catechism, those who purposely turn away from God and continue this behavior “til the end” don’t have a chance for redemption after death.

To me this indicates a denouncing of God and a refusal to do His will, not the sudden weakness of a person who otherwise loves God and tries his best day by day.

In my opinion, which means nothing, I cannot see God condemning the hypothetical man in your story.

Let’s change it a little. What if the man doesn’t lie, for example, but succumbs to a weakness of the flesh, then suddenly dies. I really think God would forgive him for his weakness, and let him atone for his mistake in purgatory.

It used to be said that those who commit suicide go to hell. I don’t believe this. And I’ve heard two different priests address this. One, at the Catholic funeral of a parishoner who committed suicide. The priest said he believes God is kind and merciful, and pardons all our iniquities–just as the psalm says.

The other priest said to me personally, of a woman who attempted suicide but was unsuccessful, that she might not even need confession for her attempt, since she was probably not in her right mind at the time of the attempt.

We have to do our best, each day. When we fail, we fail. Then we go to confession and start over again. That’s obviously why we have confession. But I highly doubt that God is so rigid that he would punish someone eternally for a mistake made in the person’s last hours.

Remember, Jesus forgave Peter for actually DENYING him.

Peace,
Meeshy
 
P.S. There’s a big difference between committing a sin and feeling no remorse, and committing a sin and feeling bad immediately. The latter is called repentance, and God knows if we are repentant in our hearts, regardless of whether we make it to confession or not before we die.

Peace,
Meeshy
 
It seems there are two extremes concerning mortal sins.

One is a very mechanistic, leaglistic, moralistic and negativistic approach which alsmost makes God into One who plays “gotcha!”

The difficulty in addressing the question as asked is that at it’s heart, it seems to not make much sense.

Someone who has lead a moral life seems extremely unlikely to be the person who is going to turn completely from God in an instant of choice, and then not be repentant between the time of the act and death. That is not how they have lived their life, and there enters then the bvery real issue of intent; one cannot necessarily assume that full intent is indicated simply by the fact that the act occured.

The other extreme heads very closely to presuming that the full and free intent to commit a mortal sin cannot be achieved by the normal individual who has lead a moral life. It does not square with the Gospels in which it seems to be repeated often that the road to heaven is narrow and many will not achieve it.

I tend to agree that such an example is at best difficult to answer, because there are sinmply too many variables at play with people; someone who has always strived to live the moral life (and I do not limit moral life to simply tryi8ng to avoid sin) has too great a realtionship with God to simply on a whim walk from it.

The very bottom of moral life is not avoidance of sin; it is relationship with God. I often compare it to a marriage, and the relationship of one spouse with another. Someone who has had a long and good solid marriage simply isn’t going to go out and suddenly on a whim commit adultery. Adultery is something that occurs either where there was never a good solid marriage to begin with, or one that has seriously broken down over time. That is not to say that it can’t; only to say that I have yet to come across a situation where it did. Every one I have come across fits in either fo the two scenarios; no relationship to begin with, or one that has broken down long enough that the barriers aren’t there to stop such a thing.

I am sure someone will chime in with some aneccdotal evidence to the contrary; and my answer is that I sould surmise they didn’t ask too many in-depth questions.
 
Michael1511 said:
Why is it that I cannot get an answer for this simple question? Is that the correct teaching of the Catholic Church or not?

I am not trying to scare anyone. If the sceanrio is too unrealistic, then supppose I die with a few mortal sins on my** souls**: lying, not going to Mass, thoughts of lust…am I or am I not going to spend eternity in hell? Stop being so defensive…what is the correct teaching?
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If you have more than one soul, then you may be demon infested, and there is no help for you? 😉

The teaching is that people that want to be with God for eternity will demonstrate that desire while they are still here on earth. A person who lies, avoids Jesus present in the sacrament, and has thoughts full of lust clearly is not a person who wants to spend an eternity with a Holy God, where those things are not tolerated. God will honor your choice.The Catholic Church teaches that you have free will, and that if you choose not to have fellowship with God, then you do not have to have it.

19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a man;… " Matt 15:19-20

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.” John 6:53-57

8 He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God commits sin; for God’s nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God. 10 By this it may be seen who are the children of God,…" 1 John 3:8-10
 
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