Thousands attack Christian homes, shops in Egyptian village [CWN]

[Bev17243]

Spain, Egypt, Syria, Palestine…these were Christian countries.

Spain was plundered for 700 years. In fabulous Cordoba…all non-Muslims were still dhimmi in their cultural golden years wearing a badge with green clothes, their witness meaning little, not allowed to carry a Christian or Jewish prayer book, not allowed to share their faith with others…

After Spain took back its country…and considering how all the rest went…I am now having a new respect for Spain…Muslims and Jews were feigning conversion and receiving the Eucharist without faith…a sacrilege.

Look at what happened when people in advertently burn a Quran or look or call up the wrong number…so many people killed…fanatics’ behavior in the streets…many hurt…

There was no picture but a made up story like the worst do to hurt Christians.

The House of War in Islam is at war with the West. Millions of Muslims are immigrating to Spain now to take it back, just as those who have immigrated to Israel to take Spain back. This taking back is fully conscious in Muslims who want totalitarian control of the world.

I believe some day a war will come and finally settle the problem…But I believe Christ will be the One Who is victorious, not hate and land lust.

Kathleen, noone has to burn Quran for them to get riled up and start to riot-all it takes for someone to say "I heard that these Christians are "insert whatever reason anything from “raping Muslim women” to calling their dog Mohammed"and its ON
Seriously, though, its a messed up world when the followers of Islam decide that Christians “offend” them by our mere existence. All you have to look at is what’s happening in the Middle East-christians are either fleeing or being murdered in record numbers. Its a disgrace

 

[Kouyate42]

Kathleen, noone has to burn Quran for them to get riled up and start to riot-all it takes for someone to say "I heard that these Christians are "insert whatever reason anything from “raping Muslim women” to calling their dog Mohammed"and its ON

Burning the holiest book in Islam (or even damaging or speaking badly of it) or insulting the Prophet (saw) in any way is worthy of Muslims all over the world to stand up and protest. I can guarantee that such a future incident of such behavior and I would be the first on the streets to protest.

Seriously, though, its a messed up world when the followers of Islam decide that Christians “offend” them by our mere existence. All you have to look at is what’s happening in the Middle East-christians are either fleeing or being murdered in record numbers. Its a disgrace

Sources/actual cases of this happening please, or this is hearsay.

 

[mgoforth]

Sources/actual cases of this happening please, or this is hearsay.

Does the Quran count as a source?

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme - 8:39

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. - 9:73

That’s just a sampling…I could go on. Of course, the Bible contains HISTORICAL accounts where Israel was ordered to conquer other peoples. But those commands were given one battle at a time…it wasn’t a license to slaughter for eternity.

 

[Bev17243]

Burning the holiest book in Islam (or even damaging or speaking badly of it) or insulting the Prophet (saw) in any way is worthy of Muslims all over the world to stand up and protest. I can guarantee that such a future incident of such behavior and I would be the first on the streets to protest.

Sources/actual cases of this happening please, or this is hearsay.

hmm, so if someone insults your prophet, you will be “protesting” . Thanks for confirmation
Sources? gee, lets see-how about news? I guess that’s not “proof” enough for you
P.S. maybe you can answer what was the last time Christians “protested” in the same manner when someone insulted Jesus?

 

[Bev17243]

Does the Quran count as a source?

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme - 8:39

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. - 9:73

That’s just a sampling…I could go on. Of course, the Bible contains HISTORICAL accounts where Israel was ordered to conquer other peoples. But those commands were given one battle at a time…it wasn’t a license to slaughter for eternity.

we all know these passages(well, at least people who actually read the Quran). The problem is getting Muslims to acknowledge that they actually exist, not denying it and stop prosecuting people of other faiths. “Koyuate” appears to be in a major state of denial

 

[Armyvet007]

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” CCC 841

Some of you need to review how Catholic you really are.

 

[Kouyate42]

hmm, so if someone insults your prophet, you will be “protesting” . Thanks for confirmation
Sources? gee, lets see-how about news? I guess that’s not “proof” enough for you
P.S. maybe you can answer what was the last time Christians “protested” in the same manner when someone insulted Jesus?

When I say protesting, I talk of peaceful protest, and not the disgrace that was the riots over the Danish cartoons.

 

[jakasaki]

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” CCC 841

Some of you need to review how Catholic you really are.

You can quote CCC841 all you want - it’s getting old here.

Very few Catholics agree with VII - CCC841 and the majority do not.

Do a search on it and read the threads/posts.

Posting CCC841 and ****not ****posting all of the way to the end of CCC870 is meaningless to the message.

 

[mgoforth]

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” CCC 841

Some of you need to review how Catholic you really are.

I don’t see your logic…just because we both worship the same God doesn’t mean we both do so in the correct manner. 841 doesn’t mean that everything Islam teaches is right or that they have an equal knowledge of the Truth. There’s a difference between living in peace with other religions and ignoring the Truth to be politically correct.

Also I would just point out that Muslims don’t share the view expressed in 841…in the sense that they don’t believe we’re going to heaven.

 

[Daralharb]

You can quote CCC841 all you want - it’s getting old here.

Very few Catholics agree with VII - CCC841 and the majority do not.

Do a search on it and read the threads/posts.

Posting CCC841 and ****not ****posting all of the way to the end of CCC870 is meaningless to the message.

I thought about hobby-knifing it out of the catechism I have and mailing it to the Vatican with a note that says, “fixed this for you, kthnxbye” but I wondered what was on the other side of the page. Lo and behold, CCC#846. The hilarious thing is the most important phrase to understand 841 would be cut out too. The same phrase which would be an unfortunate victim is the same phrase which the cheerleaders of 841 forget:

It is then that I thought, “well, this is quite the conundrum”. And then it hit me, not unlike a bolt of lighting mixed with bricks- ISLAM IS A FALSE RELIGION and any Muslim saved would of course be saved via Christ and not a single aspect of Islam.

So, I haven’t cut it out and mailed it in yet. I do however remain fully Catholic, despite Armyvet’s ridiculous statement otherwise, because I realize that the legal framework of the RCC doesn’t save me, but Christ. I do, however, have a better chance of being saved in the RCC through Christ, for the Bishop of Rome and his successors are the ones who hold the keys to Heaven.

Thank God that we have the RCC.

Otherwise, we’d just be undefined-Protestants who are converting to Islam at a rate exponentially higher than Catholics.

I can imagine no fate worse than being surrounded by Islam, except maybe its little cousin of Catholics who engage in Islamic Apology.

 

[jakasaki]

snip

Also I would just point out that Muslims don’t share the view expressed in 841…in the sense that they don’t believe we’re going to heaven.

You are correct.

The biggest sin under islam is to associate partners with allah - their allah, which is their god, cannot and did not have a “son”.

All of that is considered the biggest sin and will lead you straight to hell… which they call shirk in their Arabic language

 

[Armyvet007]

You can quote CCC841 all you want - it’s getting old here.

Very few Catholics agree with VII - CCC841 and the majority do not.

Do a search on it and read the threads/posts.

Posting CCC841 and ****not ****posting all of the way to the end of CCC870 is meaningless to the message.

“Getting old” or not, it is the teaching of the Church; and the majority does not, last I checked, determine the Truth of what the Church teaches. God does. If you disagree with the Church’s teachings, you are disagreeing with God. The CCC is not “pick what you want;” its “all or nothing.”

And, 842-870 do not change/void/invalidate what 841 states.

 

[faithalone1]

Female honour is a sensitive issue in our Arabic/Islamic culture…

Even a phone call can cause a killing not just a picture or dating…

Does that sound right to you?

 

[jakasaki]

“Getting old” or not, it is the teaching of the Church; and the majority does not, last I checked, determine the Truth of what the Church teaches. God does. If you disagree with the Church’s teachings, you are disagreeing with God. The CCC is not “pick what you want;” its “all or nothing.”

And, 842-870 do not change/void/invalidate what 841 states.

I understand you and I know you have not been here that long.

CCC841 has caused a great deal of conflict between Catholics and Catholics on here.

 

[Bev17243]

I understand you and I know you have not been here that long.

CCC841 has caused a great deal of conflict between Catholics and Catholics on here.

this is interesting because if it says that Muslims are allowed place in Heaven, it appears to contradict the teachings of the church, no? Have mercy on me here since I’m still learning about Catholic faith

 

[mgoforth]

I understand you and I know you have not been here that long.

CCC841 has caused a great deal of conflict between Catholics and Catholics on here.

I’m not really familiar myself with the problem Catholics have with 841. Could you explain the objection? It seems simple the way I read it. Muslims are on the right path in the sense that they at least acknowledge there’s only one God. They have some of the Truth. Protestants, in general, have more of the Truth because they proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God and they recognize the Holy Spirit as the third person. But both of them are missing the fullness of the Truth. Doesn’t mean they’re excluded from Heaven just because they’re not Catholic. The rest of the chapter says that everyone has a chance to get into Heaven, regardless of faith, as long as they don’t explicitly reject the degree of Truth that they’ve been exposed to.

I don’t see the problem with that.

 

[Armyvet007]

I don’t see your logic…just because we both worship the same God doesn’t mean we both do so in the correct manner. 841 doesn’t mean that everything Islam teaches is right or that they have an equal knowledge of the Truth. There’s a difference between living in peace with other religions and ignoring the Truth to be politically correct.

Also I would just point out that Muslims don’t share the view expressed in 841…in the sense that they don’t believe we’re going to heaven.

And where do I indicate that everything Islam teaches is right or that they have an equal knowledge of the Truth? Since I’m Catholic and quoting from the CCC as the foundation for my statement, one should automatically assume I do not hold that view. If this thread concerned Judism and had similar comments by Catholics which contradicted the Church’s teachings I would quote 839-840.

As for Muslims not sharing the view expressed in 841, so? Should we ignore the Truth simply because others do not/refuse to see it?

 

[Armyvet007]

this is interesting because if it says that Muslims are allowed place in Heaven, it appears to contradict the teachings of the church, no? Have mercy on me here since I’m still learning about Catholic faith

How does this contradict the teachings of the Church?

 

[SaintPatrick333]

@armyvet I think the point others are making is a valid one. I don’t discredit anything found inside the Catechism and personally hold it all true (admittedly without having read much of it) because I try to have total obedience to Christ and His Church. I’m with the others however in regards to what has been said. Do I believe muslims can be saved? Of course. But not because they worship the same God (because they don’t). God is a triune God as you are well aware of. They deny the divinity of Christ. While they may have great respect for Him and even for Mary (more than protestants shockingly) they still give scandal and succumb to heresies. You can’t expect to be saved by serving only God the Father and completely discounting God the Son and the Holy Spirit. Besides, salvation can ONLY be attained through Christ. Invincible ignorance won’t extend to those who know about Christ and reject Him because they follow “allah” which as I said in my previous post is just a fabrication spun by Lucifer appearing as the angel Gabriel, when this whole antichrist of a faith came to be.

Apologies to anyone who takes offense and sees my posts as being uncharitable because I know they are. My intent is not to offend anyone but I will stand up for Christ no matter how many toes I have to step on. It doesn’t do members like myself who are in RCIA any good to see Catholics divided on something like this when the answer is so simple. It’s not a matter of passing judgement. Muslims deny the divinity of Christ. They reject Christ. Salvation comes from Christ alone. Only if they abandon their false religion and seek out Christ can they be saved. That is not “my” will but God’s.

 

[iohanne]

It is uncharitable - and sinful, in my opinion - to willingly believe the worst of a situation when one does not have all the facts and evidence.

To willingly believe that the angel Jibril with whom Muhammad spoke was actually Lucifer is uncharitable - especially considering that much of what Muhammad spoke was indeed true, good, excellent and beautiful. To cherry-pick the quotes in the Qur’an that portray it as a savage religion is to forget many similar passages in our own Bible.

To focus on Muslim extremism today is to forget much of history and geography where Muslims and Christians inhabited the same lands peacefully for centuries - if you could interview Mozarabic Catholics, Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox and Assyrian Christians in heaven, they can tell you that for centuries they spoke their own language, were prosperous under the many beneficent caliphs and even built and in Syria, they even shared places of worship together with the Muslims. The anti-Christian violence is a recent phenomena of the last few centuries or so. Read any history book on the Middle East.

To focus on Muslim extremism today is to completely forget the dark periods of our own history when much of western Europe behaved just as barbarically and was in the same position as much of the Middle East today with respect to socio-economic realities and most of all, education. (And how did these Muslim countries get in that really $h!tty position? Oh, that’s right, Western European “Christian” colonialism.)

To focus only on Shia and Sunni violence is to forget that Catholic-Protestant violence continued in Ireland up until the 20th century and there are still outbreaks that occur today. To focus only on Shia-Sunni violence is to forget Crusaders and their sack of Constantinople. It means forgetting how years before that, Roman Catholic Venetians were massacred in Constantinople.

We’re so intent on seeing the splinter in their eye when we have a log in ours. Sectarian and religious violence is not an Islamic problem. It’s a universal human problem. It’s called fallen humanity - or are you just not Catholic enough to feel that reality in your bones?

I’m sick and tired of Christian Islamophobia. Yes, I believe in Christ. Yes, I’m a devout, orthodox and traditionalist Catholic. And yes, I believe Islam is wrong about the Trinity, about Jesus and about many things. But that doesn’t give me a reason to feel hatred in my heart and to feel superior to them and to willingly believe the worst about the origins of their religion when I have no evidence at all. And it most certainly does not give me the right to blame every ill that happens in their society on their religion, nor is every sin that a Muslim commits directly related to Islam. That’s like when people accuse our priests of being pedophiles. Honestly, American Catholic conservatism is so messed up. Seriously - the rest of the universal Church slaps their foreheads when American Catholic conservatives open their mouths.