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Armyvet007
Guest
Thank you, sir, for posting what I have been attempting, poorly, to say.
Thousands attack Christian homes, shops in Egyptian village [CWN]
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Trebor135
Guest
Interesting. Do you have journalistic or scholarly sources to offer on this issue?
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iohanne
Guest
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.”
I Corinthios xiii. 1-3.
I Corinthios xiii. 1-3.
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rmills1
Guest
So the proper response to this is to burn homes and murder innocent Christian people?
Sharia law does not protect Christians and Jews, it represses them.
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Daralharb
Guest
churchandislam.com/Church_and_Islam/About_this_site.htmlInteresting. Do you have journalistic or scholarly sources to offer on this issue?
Anglican site, but that’s good enough in this case as it could be a Muslim site and the citation (Pew report) would stand. Roughly 67% of Christian converts to Islam have come from a Protestant background whereas only around 15% from the RCC.
My personal opinion is the conversions are because most Protestant churches are no longer teaching morality whereas Islam does in its own weird and twisted, dualistic way. Endemic hatred of the RCC keeps many away as they’re looking for a lifestyle and not really sound doctrine or verifiable texts. Islam is everything Chabad-Lubavitch wants to be. I’d surmise the Christian to Jewish converts, or even stupider, the Messianic adherents run along the same lines as the converts to Islam, but they can’t see this “Allah” character as anything but bad, whereas “Yahweh” and “Yeshua” have a friendly saturday-morning ring. They want to be held to a standard, but not by the Pope because they don’t understand scripture. If they did, they wouldn’t convert anyway.
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Daralharb
Guest
What you don’t understand is that none of us dissenting against this defense of Islam do it because it is about “us”. The focus is: “what is Islam, and what does it claim, and what are its fruits?”. The answer quickly becomes, in order: false, different Gospel, the destruction of Christendom and the promised overthrow and death of anyone who won’t submit to it.
Well, feed me crickets and I’ll burp you to sleep, that sounds like a forerunner of the Anti-Christ.
Funnily enough, St. John of Damascus thought the exact same thing. I guess he was a bigoted and uncharitable meanie too.
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iohanne
Guest
Individuals saints or Church fathers do not make up Church teaching. They can err. It is the consensus of the Fathers as a whole that is the authoritative interpreter of Tradition and Scripture. Many of the Fathers had erroneous opinions that were conditioned by time and culture. Now, I do agree with many of the central things that St. John of Damascus says but I think he goes overboard in his exposition. He lacks a certain finesse in his approach. Then again, he could simply be subjecting himself to the style of the apologiae which is polemical on purpose. We are free to critique the thought and intellectual life of the Fathers in this way. (We are not free to critique their sainthood or any kind of universal consensus among them.)
Secondly. Your very name, Dar al-Harb - and even your location - reeks of your personal gripe with Islam. How coincidental that you say,“it’s not about us” and yet you would attach to your own person, not some kind of virtue centered on Christ, but a very polemical and divisive title. That seems pretty personal to me. You can vent all you want about Islam being the destruction of Christendom, “false” and the “a different Gospel” - which, by the way, seems very much like Protestant language to me and not at all an intelligent and informed Catholic opinion - but it’s nothing but cultural imperialism. I’m not American and I’ll have none of it.
Every single Muslim that I have met has been highly educated, courteous and open to religious dialogue. It is only people who have not had real, person-to-person, intimate and loving friendships with Muslims who could ever imagine that Islam is some kind of perverting, pervasive, diabolical force in the lives of of all Muslims everywhere. My personal experience on the contrary has been that it has brought out the highest of of the human heart in many of my dear friends. It has inspired them to great acts of love and self-sacrifice. Your gripe is purely theoretical and fantastical and not at all grounded in human relationships and the empirical data of history. This is not to say that Islam is right by any means but I’m seeking to maintain a balance between Islam being wrong on many issues and Islam being a downright evil and diabolical force. There is a sane middle ground.
Anyways, you seem to have completely ignored my post above on the historical reality of centuries of peaceful Muslim-Christian co-habitation in the Middle East. If a Martian were to judge Christianity by its fruits at certain points in history, he’d probably think the same as you do of Islam. This betrays the fact that rather than opening up your mind to seriously engage a different point of view, you’re intent on continuing with your grand fantasies of a clash of two civilisations, in your mind the Dar al-Islaam and Dar-al Harb. I can discern nothing honorable or virtuous or excellent in any of this. Again, you can speak of all mysteries and have all knowledge but if you have not love, it will profit you nothing.
P.S. Putting the words “bigoted” and “meanie” in my mouth is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to portray me as a whiny, sentimental, unintelligent fool. Kindly refrain from doing so, please. I’d like to believe that the manner in which I have expressed my opinions is cogent, coherent and reasonable.
Secondly. Your very name, Dar al-Harb - and even your location - reeks of your personal gripe with Islam. How coincidental that you say,“it’s not about us” and yet you would attach to your own person, not some kind of virtue centered on Christ, but a very polemical and divisive title. That seems pretty personal to me. You can vent all you want about Islam being the destruction of Christendom, “false” and the “a different Gospel” - which, by the way, seems very much like Protestant language to me and not at all an intelligent and informed Catholic opinion - but it’s nothing but cultural imperialism. I’m not American and I’ll have none of it.
Every single Muslim that I have met has been highly educated, courteous and open to religious dialogue. It is only people who have not had real, person-to-person, intimate and loving friendships with Muslims who could ever imagine that Islam is some kind of perverting, pervasive, diabolical force in the lives of of all Muslims everywhere. My personal experience on the contrary has been that it has brought out the highest of of the human heart in many of my dear friends. It has inspired them to great acts of love and self-sacrifice. Your gripe is purely theoretical and fantastical and not at all grounded in human relationships and the empirical data of history. This is not to say that Islam is right by any means but I’m seeking to maintain a balance between Islam being wrong on many issues and Islam being a downright evil and diabolical force. There is a sane middle ground.
Anyways, you seem to have completely ignored my post above on the historical reality of centuries of peaceful Muslim-Christian co-habitation in the Middle East. If a Martian were to judge Christianity by its fruits at certain points in history, he’d probably think the same as you do of Islam. This betrays the fact that rather than opening up your mind to seriously engage a different point of view, you’re intent on continuing with your grand fantasies of a clash of two civilisations, in your mind the Dar al-Islaam and Dar-al Harb. I can discern nothing honorable or virtuous or excellent in any of this. Again, you can speak of all mysteries and have all knowledge but if you have not love, it will profit you nothing.
P.S. Putting the words “bigoted” and “meanie” in my mouth is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to portray me as a whiny, sentimental, unintelligent fool. Kindly refrain from doing so, please. I’d like to believe that the manner in which I have expressed my opinions is cogent, coherent and reasonable.
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Daralharb
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Daralharb
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iohanne
Guest
Nevermind. I don’t know why I even bother.
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Daralharb
Guest
Ditto.
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chosen_people
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Bev17243
Guest
“peaceful cohabitation” Christians and Muslims in the Middle East is a myth and always have been. Just like Islamic Spain and Christians and Muslims and Jews always living in peace and harmony. “peace and harmony” continued for as long as Christians and Jews accepted their status as “dhimmis” a second class citizen and paid appropriate fees and taxes and agreed not to preach Christianity and Judaism. Of course, many converted to Islam because it made things like easier for them. Still, the usual rioting and pogroms have commenced even when Christians tried their best to blend into woodwork, same as today. Muslim thought Christian said something uncomplementary about Islam, or they kept a dog, or they thought that Christian looked at them wrong, or gave them evil eye, whatever the reason was thether real or imagined, it gave them an excuse to give those Christians what they deserve.
I have no doubt that you have met Muslims who appear to be the upstanding citizens in every way and who treated you with respect. However if you take same people and you and put all concerned into Islamic country and all that “niceness” will dissappear.
I’ll give you a good example. Take Iraq for example-which used to have quite large Christian population and which has no dwindled to almost nothing since the fall of Sadam. Sadam kept everything in check with iron fist and as soon as he was deposed, the oppression of Christians have began. same with Egypt, every day you hear something about church burnings or murders of the Copts. Hmm, they must have done something to have Muslims act this way
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KathleenGee
Guest
Regarding history of Christians and Jews living under Sharia, they were still dhimmi and treated as dhimmi…and only a fool would say otherwise.
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Ontheway
Guest
To Johanne,
I have read your comments carefully and it is safe to say that a grain of truth can be found there. However, it is good to be a little less passionate. I have lived in what is considered a moderate muslim country, so I have some first hand experience.
Let’s begin with your statement:
*“Every single Muslim that I have met has been highly educated, courteous and open to religious dialogue.” *
The first part is a slight exaggeration, unless you know only a handful of university professors. The second part, about religious dialogue can be true only if your muslims are not very religious. A religious dialogue with a true believer is not possible at all. There is no room for discussion there.
On to another matter. Your next statement is more interesting as it speaks of personal loving relationships.
]“real, person-to-person, intimate and loving friendships with Muslims who could ever imagine that Islam is some kind of perverting, pervasive, diabolical force in the lives of all Muslims everywhere.”
Many people from the Middle East are warm, passionate, compassionate, generous, and full of life. This is a reflection of their culture, life styles, geography, and traditions. They respect family and value life. These very same people, however, are equally passionate when it comes to church burning and killing. What causes these people to commit these atrocities may not be their religion, but their religion, or their religious leaders inspire and encourage these attitudes. When the churches were being burned and Christians killed, many imams placed the blame for this on the Christians themselves. The prevailing attitude was that “If we are killing them, then they deserve this”. These voices were coming from the mosque. This was being broadcast on television. I was there and I heard it myself.
Whether these voices are “angelic” or “diabolical”, I will leave for you to decide.
Finally, you seem to be attributing the clash of civilizations to the wrong side:
“This betrays the fact that rather than opening up your mind to seriously engage a different point of view, you’re intent on continuing with your grand fantasies of a clash of two civilisations, in your mind the Dar al-Islaam and Dar-al Harb.”
It is not the Christian West that divided the world into Dar al-Islaam and Dar-al Harb. The terms come from Arabic. These attitudes are alive and well in all muslim societies today. If there is a muslim minority that does not subscribe to some of these ideas, they are oddly silent. Perhaps I am not sufficiently diligent in seeking out these voices.
If there is someone here who is now in the Middle East or has lived there recently, please add your comments. .
I have read your comments carefully and it is safe to say that a grain of truth can be found there. However, it is good to be a little less passionate. I have lived in what is considered a moderate muslim country, so I have some first hand experience.
Let’s begin with your statement:
*“Every single Muslim that I have met has been highly educated, courteous and open to religious dialogue.” *
The first part is a slight exaggeration, unless you know only a handful of university professors. The second part, about religious dialogue can be true only if your muslims are not very religious. A religious dialogue with a true believer is not possible at all. There is no room for discussion there.
On to another matter. Your next statement is more interesting as it speaks of personal loving relationships.
]“real, person-to-person, intimate and loving friendships with Muslims who could ever imagine that Islam is some kind of perverting, pervasive, diabolical force in the lives of all Muslims everywhere.”
Many people from the Middle East are warm, passionate, compassionate, generous, and full of life. This is a reflection of their culture, life styles, geography, and traditions. They respect family and value life. These very same people, however, are equally passionate when it comes to church burning and killing. What causes these people to commit these atrocities may not be their religion, but their religion, or their religious leaders inspire and encourage these attitudes. When the churches were being burned and Christians killed, many imams placed the blame for this on the Christians themselves. The prevailing attitude was that “If we are killing them, then they deserve this”. These voices were coming from the mosque. This was being broadcast on television. I was there and I heard it myself.
Whether these voices are “angelic” or “diabolical”, I will leave for you to decide.
Finally, you seem to be attributing the clash of civilizations to the wrong side:
“This betrays the fact that rather than opening up your mind to seriously engage a different point of view, you’re intent on continuing with your grand fantasies of a clash of two civilisations, in your mind the Dar al-Islaam and Dar-al Harb.”
It is not the Christian West that divided the world into Dar al-Islaam and Dar-al Harb. The terms come from Arabic. These attitudes are alive and well in all muslim societies today. If there is a muslim minority that does not subscribe to some of these ideas, they are oddly silent. Perhaps I am not sufficiently diligent in seeking out these voices.
If there is someone here who is now in the Middle East or has lived there recently, please add your comments. .
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CarloMagnus
Guest
Frightening. 
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GraceDK
Guest
A few Qurans are burned accidentally by American soldiers and people get killed by Moslems in “retaliation”… Obama goes out and apologizes…
The whole Political body of the Western world was shouting “STOP” when one man in Florida warned that he would burn that evil book… but they are all silent when Christian PEOPLE are tortured and killed and systematically persecuted in the Islamic world every day.
Theo van Gogh made a film about Islamic opression of women, and a Muslim man came and stapped him dead on the open street by day light. The last words of the film maker:
“Can’t we talk about it??!”
Makes you think, doesn’t it?
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Daralharb
Guest
The last words of many people here, should the situation arise, will be highly similar.
Common ground, charity, etc all have become misused to essentially make people become milquetoast martyrs in training. Not even really martyrs in the proper sense, just victims of their own stupidity.
Personally, I cannot see any discussion taking place that means anything or accomplishes a thing.
I keep getting told, ad nauseam, over and over, that Islam is peaceful, for women’s rights, friendly to non-Muslims, etc. Yet, everywhere Islam is advancing, I see nothing but persecution of Christians, increased violence, and human rights spiraling down the toilet like there was a vacuum on the other end.
In short, the paradigm sucks and the opposition are nothing but liars. Their cheerleaders on our sidelines need to be kicked out of the stadium or thrown onto the field which is the natural element of people such as myself.
Put me in the ring and I may indeed fall to the lions and tigers and bears (oh my!
), but I’ll be fighting with every last breath in me.“Are you not entertained?!”
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Bev17243
Guest
too many people have an attitude of an ostrich where they have their head stuck in the sand permanentlyThe last words of many people here, should the situation arise, will be highly similar.
Common ground, charity, etc all have become misused to essentially make people become milquetoast martyrs in training. Not even really martyrs in the proper sense, just victims of their own stupidity.
Personally, I cannot see any discussion taking place that means anything or accomplishes a thing.
I keep getting told, ad nauseam, over and over, that Islam is peaceful, for women’s rights, friendly to non-Muslims, etc. Yet, everywhere Islam is advancing, I see nothing but persecution of Christians, increased violence, and human rights spiraling down the toilet like there was a vacuum on the other end.
In short, the paradigm sucks and the opposition are nothing but liars. Their cheerleaders on our sidelines need to be kicked out of the stadium or thrown onto the field which is the natural element of people such as myself.
Put me in the ring and I may indeed fall to the lions and tigers and bears (oh my!
“Are you not entertained?!”
and can’t see what Islam is and what it teaches. I guess they just can’t believe that it can be possible. People like that will be our downfall
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GraceDK
Guest
Exactly. You hit it on the nail. People of good will will naturally think everyone is like them and that everyone thinks like them… eg. we take democracy for granted in the West and we think everyone is a democratic person but it is not so.
In Europe we have some secular Muslims who are politicians. You know what happens when they go to certain areas where there are many Moslems while doing their political campaigns? They meet these words from Muslim youths: “You know you cannot really work for this Western illegitimate system…”
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