Thousands protest Wisconsin anti-union bill

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MADISON, Wis. — A bill eliminating most collective bargaining rights from nearly all Wisconsin public employees passed the Legislature’s budget-writing committee late Wednesday night despite two days of mass public protests. The bill went through with all Republicans backing it and no Democratic support. The vote clears the way for the Senate to take up the bill Thursday. Thousands of protesters packed the Capitol Rotunda to watch the hearing on television monitors, booing and screaming when supporters of the measure talked. Protesters packed the Capitol all day Tuesday during a 17-hour hearing, overnight and again all day Wednesday.

msnbc.msn.com/id/41624142/ns/politics-more_politics/
 
a_priori said:
Thousands of protesters packed the Capitol Rotunda to watch the hearing on television monitors, booing and screaming when supporters of the measure talked.
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Yep, that’s the level of behavior we have come to expect from union supporters.

Ender
 
Difficult times call for difficult choices. However,…
In addition to eliminating collective bargaining rights, the legislation would also make public workers pay half the costs of their pensions and at least 12.6 percent of their health care coverage — increases that Walker calls “modest” compared to those in the private sector.
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This is a problem? This is generous compared to what most get, and this is a cut???

I also am shocked to see a teacher sick-out forcing the cancelaltion of school. I guess there really are some that are in it just for the money.
 
Ender said:
Yep, that’s the level of behavior we have come to expect from union supporters.

Ender
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The right of workers to organize into unions is part of Catholic social doctrine. When the secular state aims to destroy a union, it acts counter to Church teaching. Such state action needs to be protested…vigorously.

Pope John Paul II, in his encyclical Centesimus annus stated…

“The theological dimension is needed both for interpreting and for solving
present day problems in human society”.

meaning that Church social doctrine is a matter of faith; Catholics are bound to believe that teaching.
 
gnjsdad said:
The right of workers to organize into unions is part of Catholic social doctrine. When the secular state aims to destroy a union, it acts counter to Church teaching. Such state action needs to be protested…vigorously.
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The only problem with that arguement is these people ARE PART OF THE SECULAR STATE.
 
gnjsdad said:
The right of workers to organize into unions is part of Catholic social doctrine. When the secular state aims to destroy a union, it acts counter to Church teaching. Such state action needs to be protested…vigorously.
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If the state was trying to “destroy” a union you might have an argument, but since she isn’t, you don’t. What is happening is that some states are finally reacting to the excesses and high costs associated with public service unions. Reigning them in is not the same as destroying them.

Ender
 
Ender said:
If the state was trying to “destroy” a union you might have an argument, but since she isn’t, you don’t. What is happening is that some states are finally reacting to the excesses and high costs associated with public service unions. Reigning them in is not the same as destroying them.

Ender
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The state of Wisconsin is acting to eliminate most collective bargaining rights…

That is more than reining in excesses and high costs, which has traditionally been done thru negotiation (i.e., collective bargaining). This is nothing other than attempt to emasculate the unions. Without collective bargaining, in what sense does a union still exist?
 
SamH said:
The only problem with that arguement is these people ARE PART OF THE SECULAR STATE.
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I disagree. The union, even the public employee union, is an organization acting as a buffer in between the individual member and the state. Such social organizations are totally natural and legitimate in the eyes of the Church…(see doctrine of subsidiarity).

Without such intermediary organizations, the individual would get trampled by the state.
 
gnjsdad said:
The state of Wisconsin is acting to eliminate most collective bargaining rights…

That is more than reining in excesses and high costs, which has traditionally been done thru negotiation (i.e., collective bargaining). This is nothing other than attempt to emasculate the unions. Without collective bargaining, in what sense does a union still exist?
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They don’t, which is one of the goals of the Republican party.
 
gnjsdad said:
The right of workers to organize into unions is part of Catholic social doctrine. When the secular state aims to destroy a union, it acts counter to Church teaching. Such state action needs to be protested…vigorously.
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Unless a corresponding component of that Church doctrine is the ability to compel the Angels to descend with bags of cash to pay the bills, I think a little further exegesis is in order.
 
gnjsdad said:
The state of Wisconsin is acting to eliminate most collective bargaining rights…

That is more than reining in excesses and high costs, which has traditionally been done thru negotiation (i.e., collective bargaining). This is nothing other than attempt to emasculate the unions. Without collective bargaining, in what sense does a union still exist?
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Collective bargaining may include a variety of issues that cover not only wages but hiring practices, layoffs, promotions, working conditions and hours, and benefit programs. Where in Church teaching is it proclaimed that some, most, or all of these items are included in the rights of man? Obviously if Wisconsin is trying to eliminate most collective bargaining rights it is by definition not trying to eliminate them all. Again, does the Church list which ones are obligatory? You may oppose these actions because you sympathize with the unions; that’s a valid position. What’s not valid is to suggest that Wisconsin’s actions are either immoral or against Church teaching.

Ender
 
gnjsdad said:
The right of workers to organize into unions is part of Catholic social doctrine. When the secular state aims to destroy a union, it acts counter to Church teaching. Such state action needs to be protested…vigorously.

Pope John Paul II, in his encyclical Centesimus annus stated…

“The theological dimension is needed both for interpreting and for solving
present day problems in human society”.

meaning that Church social doctrine is a matter of faith; Catholics are bound to believe that teaching.
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The Church also supports the right to marry, but not to a person of the same gender, to multiple spouses, to one’s sibling or to one’s pet.

Nor does the Church support the right to marry and beat one’s spouse because one can.

One should not think the Church supports every abuse of a basic human right. it doesn’t.

If, indeed, the teachers’ union is abusive of the public (which, after all, is the employer here) then the abuse needs to be corrected. That’s plain.
 
gnjsdad said:
The right of workers to organize into unions is part of Catholic social doctrine. When the secular state aims to destroy a union, it acts counter to Church teaching. Such state action needs to be protested…vigorously.

Pope John Paul II, in his encyclical Centesimus annus stated…

“The theological dimension is needed both for interpreting and for solving
present day problems in human society”.

meaning that Church social doctrine is a matter of faith; Catholics are bound to believe that teaching.
Click to expand...
But the right to join unions is not being removed, so the Governor is on safe theological ground.
 
gnjsdad said:
I disagree. The union, even the public employee union, is an organization acting as a buffer in between the individual member and the state. Such social organizations are totally natural and legitimate in the eyes of the Church…(see doctrine of subsidiarity).

Without such intermediary organizations, the individual would get trampled by the state.
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They are employees of the state enjoying pay and benefits that exceed those of the taxpayers supporting them. They are the ones trampling the individuals paying their salaries.
 
SamH said:
They are employees of the state enjoying pay and benefits that exceed those of the taxpayers supporting them. They are the ones trampling the individuals paying their salaries.
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So, every single public worker should be paid one cent below minimum wage and enjoy absolutely no benefits?
 
Brendan said:
But the right to join unions is not being removed, so the Governor is on safe theological ground.
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If the governor of Wisconsin has his way, joining the union will be like joining the Swiss Navy.

Taking away the right to collectively bargain for wages and benefits for all intents and purposes makes the resulting “union” absolutely toothless.

From a Catholic perspective, this is shaky theologically because people join unions, in part, to improve their material well being. The improvement of one’s material well being is a fundamental human right which derives from the doctrine of the universal destination of goods
 
gnjsdad said:
From a Catholic perspective, this is shaky theologically because people join unions, in part, to improve their material well being. The improvement of one’s material well being is a fundamental human right which derives from the doctrine of the universal destination of goods
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Where exactly is that in Church documents?

Is that only true for union members, or does the universal destination of goods impose upon Bill Gates a moral obligation to improve his material well being as well?
 
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