Thread for Courageous/same sex attracted males

[Catherine_Grant]

The moderators apparently need to go through all these replies

I would like to remind everyone here of my previous post. If there is a problem, please write me through one of the many avenues available.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Moderator
Catherine Grant:

Since so many of the posters on this thread are new to Catholic Answers, I want to take the opportunity to welcome you all.

This thread is in the Spirituality forum because it is intended for support on your walk with Christ. Should any post not meet that aim, I ask you to please not respond to the post and to instead fill out a Bad Post Report form by clicking the red triangle in the top right of the post. I will then handle it as necessary.

If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to write me privately. Welcome!

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Moderator

 

[ben182]

I would like to remind everyone here of my previous post. If there is a problem, please write me through one of the many avenues available.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Moderator

Okay Catherine. Thanks and will do.

 

[Struggling]

Yeah, I’ve often found that online discussions are deficient in that they lack the face-to-face dynamic where one can see the others’ expression and tone of voice, so confusion can result. Smilies and lol’s can only go so far.

I really wasn’t intending to criticize you, just to probe your attitudes a little. You said that you thought of starting this thread because of your experience with this man, so it seemed rather important. I thought the issue of people with SSA and the struggle for chastity and the attitudes involved might be a good topic to dig deeper into. Sorry if you misunderstood.

But this isn’t Courage. It’s not a special therapeutic environment, it’s an open discussion forum where you will definitely find crosstalk and criticism, though I didn’t particularly intend that. There is a time for non-judgmental feelings-sharing and unconditional positive regard. But men with SSA need more than just a shoulder to cry on. Too much emotional indulgence of us can only exacerbate the problem. There is a time for therapists and peers to challenge, refute, and try to change unhealthy thought processes, rebuff unrealistic emotions, and criticize behavior not conducive to transformation.

One thing I’ve learned about getting healthy is that I have to be willing to risk a little criticism, make myself vulnerable in conversations and activities with guys. We shouldn’t react so defensively, though defensive reactions and oversensitivity to criticism real or imagined are often a major part of the SSA pathology.

But usually, I’ve found, any percieved criticism is not personal at all. It’s either just trying to help me or else merely reflects a difference in opinion, not personal antagonism towards me.

But I certainly didn’t mean to kill this thread. Lot’s of people responded, we got some good trains of thought going. I think we should pursue these further.

 

[Jovianlight]

Yeah, I’ve often found that online discussions are deficient in that they lack the face-to-face dynamic where one can see the others’ expression and tone of voice, so confusion can result. Smilies and lol’s can only go so far.

I really wasn’t intending to criticize you, just to probe your attitudes a little. You said that you thought of starting this thread because of your experience with this man, so it seemed rather important. I thought the issue of people with SSA and the struggle for chastity and the attitudes involved might be a good topic to dig deeper into. Sorry if you misunderstood.

But this isn’t Courage. It’s not a special therapeutic environment, it’s an open discussion forum where you will definitely find crosstalk and criticism, though I didn’t particularly intend that. There is a time for non-judgmental feelings-sharing and unconditional positive regard. But men with SSA need more than just a shoulder to cry on. Too much emotional indulgence of us can only exacerbate the problem. There is a time for therapists and peers to challenge, refute, and try to change unhealthy thought processes, rebuff unrealistic emotions, and criticize behavior not conducive to transformation.

One thing I’ve learned about getting healthy is that I have to be willing to risk a little criticism, make myself vulnerable in conversations and activities with guys. We shouldn’t react so defensively, though defensive reactions and oversensitivity to criticism real or imagined are often a major part of the SSA pathology.

But usually, I’ve found, any percieved criticism is not personal at all. It’s either just trying to help me or else merely reflects a difference in opinion, not personal antagonism towards me.

But I certainly didn’t mean to kill this thread. Lot’s of people responded, we got some good trains of thought going. I think we should pursue these further.

It’s very important to avoid criticism. As someone who has spent time in Al-anon, I learned a long time ago that cross-talk, criticism, and the like do not really help people who are struggling with “stinking thinking” or dysfunctional behavior. The best thing I can do for my brother or sister is share from my “strength, hope and experience.”

I wish I could understand “why” I have had to endure SSA or ACOA difficulities in my life. I have tried for 45 years and I still can’t figure it out. Maybe the Lord has intended it for something far beyond my ability to know or reason. Today all I know is that I can struggle to remain in my life as it is now and try to trust more in where the Jesus is leading me.

I have had to put up with and endure the attempts of “religious folk” who–though they meant well–tried to help me by beating me over the head with their own interpretation of scripture. I know in my own heart after being away from the Church for close to 10 years that the Catholic Church teaches truth. It came to me as a personal revelation after I went back to confession this past August. How I was able to accept that in my heart had nothing to do with what friends tried to tell me before. Truth illumined my heart because the Lord Loved me long before I sinned and long before I came back. I can be thankful for that.

 

[ben182]

It’s very important to avoid criticism. As someone who has spent time in Al-anon, I learned a long time ago that cross-talk, criticism, and the like do not really help people who are struggling with “stinking thinking” or dysfunctional behavior. The best thing I can do for my brother or sister is share from my “strength, hope and experience.”… How I was able to accept that in my heart had nothing to do with what friends tried to tell me before. Truth illumined my heart because the Lord Loved me long before I sinned and long before I came back. I can be thankful for that.

Thanks Jovianlight. In addition to that, we also have to respect not just our own but others boundaries as well. When someone says no, it means just that. NO. When someone says that something is too personal, what else does it mean? Unsolicited advice is, exactly, “unsolicited.”

I find personally find some fruit in asking for help online from COL or CA, but I take it with a grain of salt and try to be gracious in offering answers as well. Because, if I needed someone to help me challenge myself and stretch me, I certainly would not have it imposed upon me by a stranger on the internet. I WOULD rather
go to a spiritual director or a counsellor. Unless I ask for it specifically from a forum…then in that case I am willing to take some risks…with a BIG grain of salt. It’s a choice only oneself can make. No one else should take or assume the responsibility for that.

Besides,how many of us would easily give our opinions but, when receiving others, think that they’ve been misunderstood? Better to first focus on our own issues first before trying solve someone else’s particularly whom you havent known yet.

And thank you for putting the following to words Jovianlight:

" The best thing I can do for my brother or sister is share from my “strength, hope and experience.”… How I was able to accept that in my heart had nothing to do with what friends tried to tell me before. Truth illumined my heart because the Lord Loved me long before I sinned and long before I came back. I can be thankful for that."

Ditto.

 

[archangel63]

Hi all,

I am a gay man of 43 years-old who has been celibate for almost 6 years (it hasn’t killed me). Recently I have become chaste too (a couple months). I came out when I was 23 (lost my virginity to a guy). Was in a live-in relationship with a guy for 8 years. I loved him with all my heart but he cheated on me and that ended that. I was never promiscuous (I can count the men I’ve had sex with on one hand). I do miss sex (heck, it feels great), but after 15 years of active, “out”, gay life I discovered that homosexuality is a big lie, a deception. It’s simply not meant to be (the acting out part). It doesn’t work. I couldn’t find my happiness with another man, because after awhile it occured to me that the focus of the gay world and gay society is “sex”, not love…more specifically, fulfilling your lustful fantasies at the expense of others. I don’t hang out with gay men anymore (too much temptation). I’m against gay marriage (what’s the point when 95% of gay men are totally promiscuous and uncommitted). Plus, a big turnoff for me was the anti-Jesus stance of the gay community at large. And I also found morals to be lacking in the vast amount of gay men I’ve known. Seems when most gay men “come out”, they throw the morals their parents taught them out the door.

I’ve always believed in Jesus and always felt close to God. I didn’t read what the Bible said regarding homosexuality til some point during my 8 year relationship…I was very saddened to say the least (God, how can you condemn me?). We all go through that (at least the ones who wake up and rub the sleep out of their eyes). Life is better now that I left men behind. I wish I could show more gay men that this way of life is best, but unfortunately gay men love their sin and most are not willing to part with it.

 

[Beantown]

Hi,

I don’t know if anyone else has started a thread like this here. But I thought it would be a good idea. I’ve posted before in Courage online but posting takes such a long time and isn’t as interactive as this forum.

Naturally, this isn’t a thread for those who are liberal in thinking. But for those who want to connect with other guys who share similar experiences and problems to different degrees brought about( for one) by same sex attractions(ssa).

I thought of starting this thread because I was surprised recently to encounter one guy with ssa who strove for chastity…but didn’t seem to have ssa in “full force.” I didn’t realize that one could have exclusive ssa but avoid a number of problems regarding chastity early on.

Anyway, hope to discuss things here in a charitable way that we usually are not able to on Courage online or maybe even in the Courage group.

Ben

Hi Ben you don’t know how happy I am to see some one start a Courage/SSA thread here on “The Catholic Answers Forum.” God bless you for your effort. I have been a member of Courage for some years now and belong to the Boston Chapter. But now I am retired and living in Fort Myers, FL, where I was attempting to form a Chapter here in Fort Myers. I no longer belong to the Fort Myers Chapter of Courage, I quit after a non-Catholic friend, who was invited to our meetings by the priest who leads the Fort Myers chapter along with his “side kick” annnounced that Courage was a CATHOLIC organization, this caused my friend to feel uncomfortable after the first time this was announced at a Courage meeting my friend refused to have anything to do with Courage. I still kept going to meetings the the same statement was made again, I hit the boiling point took umbrage at this remark and let them know so in no uncertain terms what I thought about them and their un-Christian behavior.
So, you can imagine how happy I was today when I saw your posting.
I also use COL but the more outlets we have to help our brothers and sisters with SSA the better. With the help of Courage I am happy to say I am living and ENJOYING a chaste life, Thank God!

 

[ben182]

Hi all,

I am a gay man of 43 years-old who has been celibate for almost 6 years (it hasn’t killed me). Recently I have become chaste too (a couple months). I came out when I was 23 (lost my virginity to a guy). Was in a live-in relationship with a guy for 8 years. I loved him with all my heart but he cheated on me and that ended that. I was never promiscuous (I can count the men I’ve had sex with on one hand). I do miss sex (heck, it feels great), but after 15 years of active, “out”, gay life I discovered that homosexuality is a big lie, a deception. It’s simply not meant to be (the acting out part). It doesn’t work. I couldn’t find my happiness with another man, because after awhile it occured to me that the focus of the gay world and gay society is “sex”, not love…more specifically, fulfilling your lustful fantasies at the expense of others. I don’t hang out with gay men anymore (too much temptation). I’m against gay marriage (what’s the point when 95% of gay men are totally promiscuous and uncommitted). Plus, a big turnoff for me was the anti-Jesus stance of the gay community at large. And I also found morals to be lacking in the vast amount of gay men I’ve known. Seems when most gay men “come out”, they throw the morals their parents taught them out the door.

I’ve always believed in Jesus and always felt close to God. I didn’t read what the Bible said regarding homosexuality til some point during my 8 year relationship…I was very saddened to say the least (God, how can you condemn me?). We all go through that (at least the ones who wake up and rub the sleep out of their eyes). Life is better now that I left men behind. I wish I could show more gay men that this way of life is best, but unfortunately gay men love their sin and most are not willing to part with it.

Thanks for sharing this archangel. It helps to read your testimony. For me, it helps to learn from you that,

" it occured to me that the focus of the gay world and gay society is “sex”, not love…more specifically, fulfilling your lustful fantasies at the expense of others…95% of gay men are totally promiscuous and uncommitted)…a big turnoff for me was the anti-Jesus stance of the gay community at large… I also found morals to be lacking in the vast amount of gay men I’ve known… Seems when most gay men “come out”, they throw the morals their parents taught them out the door… I could show more gay men that this way of life is best, but unfortunately gay men love their sin…"

I’ve never been a relationship. But it has been at times tempting…especially since my move to this new area I live in where free gay publications are on the street and even the library to say the least. So it helps to read a more gut level testimony as yours from someone who has been there and done that. I know to some extent that I don’t want to give up the good that I have for a gay life, but there’s always that vicious “curiousity” to want to learn thing for yourself. And that has more often than not lead me to trouble.

 

[ben182]

Hi Ben you don’t know how happy I am to see some one start a Courage/SSA thread here on “The Catholic Answers Forum.” God bless you for your effort. I have been a member of Courage for some years now and belong to the Boston Chapter. But now I am retired and living in Fort Myers, FL, where I was attempting to form a Chapter here in Fort Myers. I no longer belong to the Fort Myers Chapter of Courage, I quit after a non-Catholic friend, who was invited to our meetings by the priest who leads the Fort Myers chapter along with his “side kick” annnounced that Courage was a CATHOLIC organization, this caused my friend to feel uncomfortable after the first time this was announced at a Courage meeting my friend refused to have anything to do with Courage. I still kept going to meetings the the same statement was made again, I hit the boiling point took umbrage at this remark and let them know so in no uncertain terms what I thought about them and their un-Christian behavior.
So, you can imagine how happy I was today when I saw your posting.
I also use COL but the more outlets we have to help our brothers and sisters with SSA the better. With the help of Courage I am happy to say I am living and ENJOYING a chaste life, Thank God!

 

[ben182]

Hi Ben you don’t know how happy I am to see some one start a Courage/SSA thread here on “The Catholic Answers Forum.” God bless you for your effort. I have been a member of Courage for some years now and belong to the Boston Chapter. But now I am retired and living in Fort Myers, FL, where I was attempting to form a Chapter here in Fort Myers. I no longer belong to the Fort Myers Chapter of Courage, I quit after a non-Catholic friend, who was invited to our meetings by the priest who leads the Fort Myers chapter along with his “side kick” annnounced that Courage was a CATHOLIC organization, this caused my friend to feel uncomfortable after the first time this was announced at a Courage meeting my friend refused to have anything to do with Courage. I still kept going to meetings the the same statement was made again, I hit the boiling point took umbrage at this remark and let them know so in no uncertain terms what I thought about them and their un-Christian behavior.
So, you can imagine how happy I was today when I saw your posting.
I also use COL but the more outlets we have to help our brothers and sisters with SSA the better. With the help of Courage I am happy to say I am living and ENJOYING a chaste life, Thank God!

Hi Beantown,

Hope the thread benefits you somehow. It’s been relatively quiet recently for one reason or another but things will hopefully be moving along soon with less friction. I’ll write more a but later but have to run for now.

I understand how helpful it could be to have online fellowship. When I was in Manila, there were times when I found it more helpful to take a break from Courage face to face meetings. COL was helpful at that point. A number of guys find taking breaks helpful at times. Now, I’m at a point where I have to watch it and need to attend the meetings. But I try to balance it by attendgin non-ssa Catholic fellowships as well.

Okay, gotta run. Later.

 

[archangel63]

I’ve never been a relationship. But it has been at times tempting…especially since my move to this new area I live in where free gay publications are on the street and even the library to say the least. So it helps to read a more gut level testimony as yours from someone who has been there and done that. I know to some extent that I don’t want to give up the good that I have for a gay life, but there’s always that vicious “curiousity” to want to learn thing for yourself. And that has more often than not lead me to trouble.

You’ve never been in a relationship? Or you’ve never been with a man? Wasn’t sure how to read this?
The “curiousity” is viscious, but I’m telling you it’s not worth it. The fantasy in your head is better left as just that, a fantasy. Don’t bring it to life, because the reality is nothing like the fantasy. Save yourself the trouble. If I could go back and retain my virginity I would. My experience with gay men was that gay men “use” eachother. If you don’t like being used than avoid the gay lifestyle, because treating eachother as objects of desire is what it’s all about. In the gay community sex if God, and God is not cool.

Why learn from your own mistakes knowingly???
You are better off not making them.
Just remember gay relationships DO NOT work.
Why? I think it’s God’s doing. He doesn’t accept it, so it only follows that he doesn’t allow it to work…at all. So don’t waste your time. Too many diseases.

• My first lover gave me “molluscum contagium”.
• My second lover (who had herpes which I never caught) gave me venereal warts on my rectum and eventually infected me with Hepatitis B (which I never came down with and luckily cleared out of my liver and blood, after an IV and many injections).
• My third lover gave me oral thrush (I didn’t know he was HIV+ but was lucky enough not to contract HIV from him)
• My 4th friend (who I never considered a lover) gave me a fungal infection on my penis.
• My 5th friend (who I never considered a lover) gave me candida which eventually gave me a male penile yeast infection (one of the most painful experiences of my life).

I have caught something from every guy I ever messed around with. Luckily at this point I don’t have herpes or HIV.

• My first lover died of AIDS in 1990. He knew I was a virgin, but used me and tossed me away after 6 months like an old rag. I put my life at risk to be with him. He crushed my soul and took my innocence.
• My second lover is HIV+ now (and an admitted sex addict) and won’t talk to me because “I’m into God now” (that’s what he told people - this tells me alot).
• My third lover is dying of AIDS as I write (for all I know he could be dead now too - we haven’t talked in many years).

I survived unscathed. Why? I attribute it to my love of God and His love of me. He gave me 3 strikes (partners headed for death by HIV). And with 3 strikes you’re out. So I no longer play the game anymore. I saw all the destruction it wreaked in my life. The losses, the sadness, the letdowns, disappointments, lies, betrayals, deception, deceit, incidiousness, lack of God.

In Baltimore City, Johns Hopkins did a study that found 50% of the active gay men in town between 25-50 were HIV+. That means that your odds of running into HIV are 1 in 2. Horrible odds, huh? Why would anyone in their right mind risk their life for an orgasm that only lasts a couple minutes? That is shear stupidity and foolishness.

Gay men think gay guys like me and you are “screwed up” because we can’t embrace our gayness anymore. We are not the screwed up ones. They are. They love their sin and have no intention of listening to the Holy Spirit. So, their fate’s are sealed as long as they embrace that life and refuse to understand the Truth and repent. This life is but a twinkle in time. Eternity is forever. I’m sure if you hold out God has a reward in heaven for you that is a million times better than any earthly orgasm or sexual experience.

Just remember, not having sex, is not gonna hurt you.
Do not follow the flesh, follow the spirit!
The flesh will only drag you down…

 

[ben182]

You’ve never been in a relationship? Or you’ve never been with a man? Wasn’t sure how to read this?.. If I could go back and retain my virginity I would. My experience with gay men was that gay men “use” eachother. If you don’t like being used than avoid the gay lifestyle, because treating eachother as objects of desire is what it’s all about…In Baltimore City, Johns Hopkins did a study that found 50% of the active gay men in town between 25-50 were HIV+. That means that your odds of running into HIV are 1 in 2. Horrible odds, huh? Why would anyone in their right mind risk their life for an orgasm that only lasts a couple minutes? That is shear stupidity and foolishness… I’m sure if you hold out God has a reward in heaven for you that is a million times better than any earthly orgasm or sexual experience… remember, not having sex, is not gonna hurt you…

Thanks for the reply archangel. I too wish I had my virginity back. So I guess that answers the first question. But not just the virginity but the innocence that I could have saved for a better experience. Instead, a number of us including myself to a certain extent, have opened up avenues of addictively pleasure by acting out. And this just screws up our minds and wills.

You know what, I realize tha gay people tend to use each other. But even if my sexual experience is really very limited, you don’t have to have sex to see that tendency for people who are or have been actively gay to use each others…not just physically but also emotionally. And obviously it can hurt. Maybe it’s because we substitute each other for , as many say, what we should be seeking for in God. And also because we(and not just ssa people) seek more to be understood, consoled, relieved out of self-centeredness. Maybe.

Thanks for mentioning the Baltimore statistics. I live in the metro DC area. And I’m sure many will appreciate reading all those diseases you mentioned. You made a frank point without being graphic.

 

[Jovianlight]

Thanks for the reply archangel. I too wish I had my virginity back. So I guess that answers the first question. But not just the virginity but the innocence that I could have saved for a better experience. Instead, a number of us including myself to a certain extent, have opened up avenues of addictively pleasure by acting out. And this just screws up our minds and wills.

You know what, I realize tha gay people tend to use each other. But even if my sexual experience is really very limited, you don’t have to have sex to see that tendency for people who are or have been actively gay to use each others…not just physically but also emotionally. And obviously it can hurt. Maybe it’s because we substitute each other for , as many say, what we should be seeking for in God. And also because we(and not just ssa people) seek more to be understood, consoled, relieved out of self-centeredness. Maybe.

Thanks for mentioning the Baltimore statistics. I live in the metro DC area. And I’m sure many will appreciate reading all those diseases you mentioned. You made a frank point without being graphic.

I recently had the opportunity to share my heart with my best friend. One of the agonizing emotions I have to deal with (I’m sure you can relate), is the oppresiveness of feeling alone. As the years have gone by I have constantly wondered why I did not have an attraction to the opposite sex. Though I have continued to feel the SSA pull, I still don’t understand it.

So I told my friend that what I really want is a BF. I shared that so he would know my heart and what I struggle with. We talkd about it and as he shared about his experiences with the women he has dated and had sex with it is absolutely clear to me that no one–men or women–can claim to be free of the same kind of temptations. He finally told me that he thought that what I really was seeking in my life was someone I could feel comfortable with. For whatever reason, I grew up in a dysfunctional environment and that “imprinting” doesn’t seem to have taken place. I have often been left wondering why…I don’t know.

I do know that like so many I began going to adult movie theatres because of the excitement and relief it provided for the isolation and depression I was plagued with. After all these years I have come to see how much like a drug it was. I needed to go back more and more often, yet it didn’t take away the pain. There is only one answer that can fill that void. That is God. However, he has given me the free will to accept his grace (himself) or reject it. I have come to appreciate how much I choose either the heaven I will experience for eternity (here and now) or the hell I will suffer for an eternity (here and now). God is not going to punish us for our choices or the sex we have; we accept or reject God by turning our backs on the truth He has imparted through his church. I have no one to blame for that but me. So today, I make every effort to fill my soul with his presence and so find what will make my choosing an inferior product (so to speak) unnecessary.

 

[Cobalt]

God bless each of you most dearly. My hope is that you know that God creates all people heterosexual, and none as homosexual. Christ’s love to you always.

 

[Beantown]

God bless each of you most dearly. My hope is that you know that God creates all people heterosexual, and none as homosexual. Christ’s love to you always.

God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. Genesis 1:27

Cobalt on what do you base your statement ? Where does it say what orientation God created any of us?

God bless and be with you,
Beantown

 

[mlexum]

If indeed as you say God creates all people in His image and heterosexual. Then I do not understand children who are born with cancer, downs syndrome, spinabifeda, and other drastic problems and challenges. In the beginning God created them Male and Female , in the beginning before the fall of man, before original sin, back when man was perfect. Since then we are all born with our own challenges , personalities , family situations , environments , and a host of other things that effect us and or lives. We all must seek out Jesus and Our Lady and face each day in the power of the Holy Spirit whatever our individual problems maybe .

 

[goofyjim]

I remember in The Passion when Jesus embraced his cross. I do that with ssa. I don’t try to discard it anymore as though it is something evil. The evil is in homosexual acts not the orientation.

 

[Cobalt]

God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. Genesis 1:27

Cobalt on what do you base your statement ? Where does it say what orientation God created any of us?

God bless and be with you,
Beantown

Hi Beantown, I looked up synonyms for orientation, and they are: direction, bearing, course, inclination, tendency,

My statement that we are all created heterosexual is based on Jesus’ Word in Mark 10:6-8 where He says, : “At the beginning of creation God made them male and female; for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and the two shall become as one. They are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore let no man separate what God has joined.”

That shows clearly the God-given orientation, direction, bearing, course, inclination, tendency which He has given to each of us in our sexuality.

Any orientation, direction, bearing, course, inclination, tendency other than what God has given to us, is not of Him, but is out of our own flesh as St. Paul says - and/or is of the enemy.

I hope this is helpful. God bless you, Cobalt

 

[Cobalt]

If indeed as you say God creates all people in His image and heterosexual. Then I do not understand children who are born with cancer, downs syndrome, spinabifeda, and other drastic problems and challenges. In the beginning God created them Male and Female , in the beginning before the fall of man, before original sin, back when man was perfect. Since then we are all born with our own challenges , personalities , family situations , environments , and a host of other things that effect us and or lives. We all must seek out Jesus and Our Lady and face each day in the power of the Holy Spirit whatever our individual problems maybe .

All of things you listed are effects of Original Sin, mankind’s original rebellion against God - see Genesis. Cobalt

 

[littleone]

If indeed as you say God creates all people in His image and heterosexual. Then In the beginning God created them Male and Female , in the beginning before the fall of man, before original sin, back when man was perfect. We all must seek out Jesus and Our Lady and face each day in the power of the Holy Spirit whatever our individual problems maybe .

The God of Love ( who created the Bible) and who the Apostles speak of tells us that
In the beginning God created man and then found that he became lonely and so He created woman, do you agree? Ok he created sexuall contact so that mankind would know that the relationship would bring man and woman closer. Remember that God does NOT need sex to create children. Proof is that Mary became pregnant through the SPIRIT of God, not by any infiltration of man. God made mankind to His own likeness (in the spirit).

It is in the same way that Jesus latter tells us that it is through the SAME spirit of God that man is given the God given gift of “discernment”. A gift that shows us in the spirit right and wrong, the way that God expects us to live and the way satan (the world ) wants us to live. God’s way is a straight way where satans is loose bending to the fleshly way (homosexuality)and others. In a worldly sence it is called the "I want " factor, with it come such words that are covered not by the spirit of discernment but by the flesh such terms as “minimization”

You say Quote
I do not understand children who are born with cancer, downs syndrome, spinabifeda, and other drastic problems and challenges. Since then we are all born with our own challenges , personalities , family situations , environments , and a host of other things that effect us and or lives end of Quote
.
Brother surely it is in the fact that sin has covered a multitude of “I wants” in out life or to put it openly “our own desires”
where as God says in the bible that it is God’s grace and mercy that covers a multitude of sin. So it is through at least three different reasons that people are born into illness, One being because of the family sin going back four generations, reason why, in the old testement God told king Saul to get rid of every person in the battles he won. But he didn’t and the sin goes on, the same reason why this sin goes on today. Back to 4 generations.

Another reason is in the genes of a person take king David where he was unable to eat certain foods because it repelled against his abdomin. Jesus tells us also that for certain reasons there are those people who are born with problems and they are for the glory of God to be seen. Take the disciples who came and asked Jesus whose sin it was that the child was born deformed. You will remember the reply Jesus gave that it was none but for the glory of God to be seen.
All of this comes back to Paul telling us that " the spirit is strong" but the flesh is weak". It is the “I factor” that Paul speaks about in the flesh being weak.

The bible is "truth it sets free there is NO argument if we "Believe in God and allow the spirit of God to determan our lives we will be governed by the gift of descernment and as paul tells us “on these there is no judgment” NOTHING of this world cn touch the “truth” of God. The truth setts free all else are “desception” or an illusition.

God bless
littleone