Threading the needle on LGBT issues

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Edward_H said:
If sex is for marriage. (N=1)

If marriage is for life. (N=1)

How can anyone have sex in person or in their imagination/masturbation with both genders (N = 2).
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The flaw in this reasoning is that it implies choice. While we certainly have choice over how we entertain our inclinations, it is not as though there is a choice to have them. Married people think about intimacy with people outside the marriage bond.

The best proof that these inclinations occur outside of the will is the dream state. People are not morally responsible for the content of their dreams.
 
There’s no flaw.

There can’t be a SECOND choice; and that’s the inescapable conclusion. So there can be no dabbling with the not-first-chosen option.
 
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Edward_H said:
There’s no flaw.

There can’t be a SECOND choice; and that’s the inescapable conclusion. So there can be no dabbling with the not-first-chosen option.
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The flaw in the reasoning is not a flaw in the choice. A married heterosexual chooses not to entertain inclinations outside the marriage bond.

A person with same sex attraction does the same. The flaw is equating inclinations with actions.
 
The question I addressed was about BI-sexuality. And my point stands.
 
I don’t see how this is different than asking “how can a man find blondes attractive when his wife is a brunette” or “how can a woman find a Hispanic actor attractive if her husband is white?”

Bisexual people can have attraction to people besides their spouse, just like heterosexuals. Doesn’t mean they act on those attractions.
 
The question is about bi-sexuality.

One can’t be truly and fully bi-sexual given my points that
  • sexual expression morally needs to take place in a marriage.
  • marriage is exclusive and permanent.
The first sex one has is the last so to speak.
 
What about a heterosexual man who has sex with a girlfriend, they break up, and then years later he marries a different woman?

I’m sorry, I’m just not following your train of thought here.
 
You are not making sense. That or you’re phrasing your question (?) in such an odd manner.

First of all, you’re assuming that our attractions are perfectly aligned with God’s original plan, and are not affected by Original Sin.
 
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Yeah, the premises (to be moral, sex should take place in the context of a valid marriage) just don’t support the conclusion (therefore, bisexuals don’t exist).

If you were arguing that you can’t licitly have sex with someone of the same gender because it’s impossible for that sex to take place within a marriage, you’d have a point. But saying that therefore bisexuals aren’t real is just a non-sequitir. We’re not talking about the moral nature of same sex acts. We’re talking about whether people can feel attraction to both genders. Two very different questions.
 
In the context of the Church’s teaching - which is based on natural law and divine positive law (Scripture, Magesterium)…there can’t be any bisexual activity at all.

And you’ve said nothing to undercut the point.

No double dipping within/across the two sexes.
 
I didn’t say there aren’t practicing bi-sexuals.

I am saying they can’t be doing this morally given that marriage is exclusive and that sex is exclusive within marriage.

No double dipping across the sexes and/or within the two sexes. No N=2 sampling!
 
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Our attractions are trainable. There can be no serious argument about this.

They sharpen, they shift, they can be reinforced.

BF Skinner’s exacting experimental life’s work showed us this.

Listen to the sad story of porn addicts…begins with Sports Illustrated swim suit issue and decays from that point.

Same with other attractions, gambling, thrill seekers, food, drink. etc.
 
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You’re responding to an argument no one is making. No one is saying that same sex sexual activity is licit.
 
I am not responding to you; my first post was to the OP, jtavington, who mentioned bisexual in the first part of their post.
 
Yes. I am bisexual. A chaste bisexual, who does their best to honor Church teaching in this matter. I do not cease to be bisexual, just as a priest does not cease to be heterosexual because he is refraining from sex.
 
Well it depends…in what sense do you know that you’re bisexual?

Is there no nursing of attractions? Was there ever? No lingering looks? Was there ever? No dwelling on other’s physicality? and so on.

If there is none of this, then you might be chaste.

Chastity isn’t continence.

Chastity is using one’s sexuality (and one’s related and supportive faculties of sense, imagination, memory, etc.) in accord with one’s state in life. Married, single, religious.

So I guess it boils down to fine grain questions about how do you know you’re bisexual and whether there is (or was there ever) any nursing of attractions interiorly. Such self nursing is a form of “reinforcement” a la BF Skinner’s work. And even more consequential would be masturbation, which can be highly reinforcing, addicting.

Nursing of attractions going against one’s state in life or one’s nature as man or woman is a sin.
 
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But nothing in her post is inconsistent with your argument. She’s saying she experiences same sex attraction. Not that she believes she could morally act on that attraction.
 
And my point above just now to her lays out my specific questions to her.

What become attractions often begin with our nursing of upstream attractions.

There’s no debate on this.

Reinforcement is a reality. Shaping is a reality. These phenomena occur across our various sense organs. They often follow predictable curves, given various reinforcement schedules. Some of the curves across sense organs parallel each other, as one might predict given that we’re an integral organism.

Examine other attractions…alcohol, food, thrill seeking, and the way porn habits shape/shift/grow stronger.

Some people foolishly think attractions just happen…what we’re attracted to have no history, etc.

Foolishness.

It ignores about 75 years of well done experimental work by BF Skinner and his students/followers.
 
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I completely agree, people can begin to form their attractions with virtue, by practicing virtues.
 
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