Threads Regarding Muslims

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Andrew_11

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I would just like to say that I do not think we should pull individual verses from the Koran to try to attack the Muslim faith. Why? Because somone can just as easily pull out a verse from the OT about stoning people. We are resorting to the same tactic against Muslims that many new agers use against us.
 
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Andrew_11:
I would just like to say that I do not think we should pull individual verses from the Koran to try to attack the Muslim faith. Why? Because somone can just as easily pull out a verse from the OT about stoning people. We are resorting to the same tactic against Muslims that many new agers use against us.
You mean we still apply ‘stonning to death’ law into our lives as to these days? :mad: just like Muslims do up till now. What about a hadith saying Muhammad stoning she-monkey because commit adultery and also join stoning her… don’t you think this is ridiculous? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
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Andrew_11:
I We are resorting to the same tactic against Muslims that many new agers use against us.
I agree. Not only does it make us look petty, but it demonstrates a lack of charity as well. We are called to love our neighbors as ourselves. Searching for reasons to condemn is wrong.

I feel badly that we treat our Muslim guests in such a shameful manner.
 
Cyber Knight:
You mean we still apply ‘stonning to death’ law into our lives as to these days? :mad: just like Muslims do up till now. What about a hadith saying Muhammad stoning she-monkey because commit adultery and also join stoning her… don’t you think this is ridiculous? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I am not defending the actions of muslims or the muslim religion, I just believe that if we start picking verses out of the Koran that promote violence, they can just as easily do the same thing to us. Picking out verses reminds me of how the protestants attack our faith and defend their faith.
 
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Andrew_11:
I am not defending the actions of muslims or the muslim religion, I just believe that if we start picking verses out of the Koran that promote violence, they can just as easily do the same thing to us. Picking out verses reminds me of how the protestants attack our faith and defend their faith.
I’m with you on the proof texting. We’d be better off leaving that to the “experts”.
 
If we don’t quote the Quran (and other Islamic sources like the sira and hadiths) then what evidence do we bring to support our claims?

The truth is the truth. Hiding it does not make it go away.

To not quote the Quran for fear that Muslims will quote the OT is not valid for the simple reason that Muslims will not reciprocate your ‘charity’.

Besides, I thought Catholics don’t follow the OT as such which is Jewish scripture kept in the Bible as a historical reference of the Jewish antecedents to Christianity.
 
*Dear All,

This will be my last posting here, as DeExupery, or Boa Constrictor, or Lamp Lighter. As you may already realized, I am one (and it may sound a bit like trinity, but not). Being suspended (twice, my record in ANY FORUM that I’ve ever joined, Islam or Christian) while I am very eager to share my thoughts make me think that this forum cannot accept free ideas.
To Moderators, especially Rachel, who seem to eager banning everyone, I want to ask where do you want this forum is leading to? Talking about theological nonsense? While you see people are suffering there, repressed in many Islamic Countries? Talking is cheap. We need to open up to ideas and share what is in our hearts. We need to touch our moslem brothers, letting them know how we feel about the whole situation, and not being PCs. We have respected what our moslem brothers and sisters said about apostasy, about their faith, about their view of terrorism, about US invation, about anything. But too bad, ALL of you repress what your Christian brothers and sisters (and those who don’t belong to those two religions) have to say. You repress them in the name of LOVE. But LOVE doesn’t suffocate.It FREES you from fear. And one again, LOVE is not a show off. LOVE is from the heart. IT can be mean, soft, sensitive, truthful, hard, anything. You just want to show your beautiful and sainty faces. But what is in your heart? Is it really true love, not only a show off?
Actually, I join here is because one of my best friends online asks me to join. But I hope that best friend will understand if I have to leave this seemingly perfect forum, because I can’t breathe here.
There are many thread that I join, which are unfinished yet. And will never finish for I will not post anything anymore. And I don’t have a heart to continue. Regards to many people I meet here, which joyfully share thoughts with me: Rodrigo, Guratto, Cyber Knight, Catholic 29, Malleus, Barton, Faith, Booklover, George Water, Iosav, Rasheed, Edris, Cute, and all the people I cannot mention here. May God bless you all, whatever the conception of God you may have.

Ciao,

Fox/Boa/Lamp Lighter*
 
My oh my… so Catholics here advise us not quoting something violent from Quran because we will be kicked back by the Muslims by quoting the OT?.. Are your intelligence this shallow and not enough understand the OT? Where have you been, Catholics? I thought we know what is OT and NT… :confused:
 
We are stupid if we bury our heads in the sand. The New Testament tells us we must be “wise as serpents.” How can you be wise, if you do not understand what you’re dealing with?

Try reading their Koran in the chronological order of the revelations. That should open your eyes. It’s quite shocking to watch Mohammed move from warner to blood-thirsty murderer/dictator.

Remember they have this wonderful abrogation rule that says a later verse replaces an earlier verse. All of the play nice with your fellow human beings verses are long before all the kill them and slay them whereever you find them and Islam must rule the world verses. The Koran moves from a message of God is the judge of souls to Islam is the judge and all non-Muslims must be oppressed or killed. The message is intolerance and hate and that the only innocent life is a Muslim life. Then tune into the news and see its application in action. Try to take a Bible into Saudi Arabia. Pay attention to what is happening to Christians and others around the world at the hands of Islam.

I cringe whenever I hear someone say Islam is a religion of peace. That is true only if you ignore the last 30 or so revelations. It’s a lie when someone says it’s been highjacked by the extremists. No, actually, they’re just following Mohammed’s teachings more literally than the peaceful ones. There is a huge debate within Islam on how to move its barbaric teachings forward. The peaceful ones can’t even admit to themselves that the extremist ones ARE following the Koran. They try to rationalize the violence away by saying they’re “misinterpreting” Islam. No, the particular scholar they’ve chosen to listen to says it’s a misinterpretation. Since Islam has no leadership, there is no official interpretation. Each individual decides which Islam they’ll follow. Since they all believe the Koran is the literal word of God and Mohammed could do no wrong, it’s not a debate the peaceful ones can ever win. They can only continue to deceive themselves about what Mohammed really was. Meanwhile the rest of the world gets to suffer at the hands of Islamic violence and oppression.

Sure, there is some truth in the Koran, and we must emphasize those truths. However, to pretend that Mohammed wasn’t a deluded cold-blooded murderer in the end and ordered his followers to be the same is ridiculous.

Jesus tells us the truth will make us free and also tells us to pray for those who persecute us. We are to bring light to the world. So if we aren’t speaking the truth AND bringing light AND praying for them, are we really listening to Jesus?
 
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Andrew_11:
I would just like to say that I do not think we should pull individual verses from the Koran to try to attack the Muslim faith. Why? Because somone can just as easily pull out a verse from the OT about stoning people. We are resorting to the same tactic against Muslims that many new agers use against us.
Guar Fan:
I agree. Not only does it make us look petty, but it demonstrates a lack of charity as well. We are called to love our neighbors as ourselves. Searching for reasons to condemn is wrong.

I feel badly that we treat our Muslim guests in such a shameful manner.
I really admire you guys! Be nice and goody goody. I like to be like that, but I don’t know whether that’s wise for fruitful discussions.

I think a clear distinction has to be decided. Do you argue with malice or just want to have frank discussion. In the latter, it’s difficult not to throw in some emotion in this kind of dialogue. Subjects discussed can be sensitive, and there can be misundertanding in term of terminolgies being used. If we want to go into the depth of each other’ religion, frankness is a necessity sometimes.

How do you respond when you are challenged that the Bible is corrupted, that you worship Mary, that Jesus did not die on the cross and that Muhammad was the promised Holy Spirit of the Bible? What are we trying to project in our belief esp for readers who coming to this forum?

I don’t agree too if we have malicous intention. But to state the truth sometimes can be painful too.

I hope I can be like you guys, in time. Meanwhile, all the best.
 
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janG:
Jesus tells us the truth will make us free and also tells us to pray for those who persecute us. We are to bring light to the world. So if we aren’t speaking the truth AND bringing light AND praying for them, are we really listening to Jesus?
I agree that we should be doing all of those things. But the light we bring should not be a flaming sword. Remember that Lucifer means “light-bringer”.

Yes, “wise as serpents”, but not “venomous as serpents”. We should be reaching out in charity with a desire to educate. Occasionally we might be rebuffed, as Reuben J. suggests. But that is where we should offer our other cheek, and reach out to them again.

The purpose of this forum is to compare and contrast beliefs. I think we can do that, and actually learn from it. But not if we are torching bridges before they are built.

Islam may not have a definitive interpretation, but there is mainstream and there is fringe. Protestant Christianity is the same way. Pat Robertson a few months ago advocated assassinating the leader of a foreign country. Some Christian groups deny life-saving medical care to their children. None of those things are part of mainstream Christianity. And we would not want our religion (or ourselves) judged on the beliefs or actions of those fringe believers.

We should try to build bridges to those who embrace mainstream Islam.
 
And what exactly does “mainstream” mean? How is it defined and where does it exist? Is it truly the majority of Islam or is it just the ones who have managed somehow to adapt to living in and/or dealing with Western societies? What exactly does mainstream Islam believe?
 
Guar Fan:
We should try to build bridges to those who embrace mainstream Islam.
What we should do is to know their faith. What they have done. What they think about us. What they plan to us. Building a bridge while they are not interested but only killing people in the name of their allah is not a good option. Politically Correct is good. but Factually Correct is better.
 

**Guar Fan [/quote said:
***]I agree that we should be doing all of those things. But the light we bring should not be a flaming sword. Remember that Lucifer means “light-bringer”…

Points taken for a well-thought of response on the subject.

Here is another matter that maybe you want to address too. Christians living in non-Muslims majority countries may not understand the problems experienced by Christians living in Islamic or Muslims majority countries like those found in South East Asia, Pakistan, Iran, Arab Middle East and some African countries like Sudan.

This is a matter for debate, but to my mind there’s no doubt that some forms of persecutions and discriminations are meted out against the Christians by their Muslims counterparts there. This putting it mildly. In some cases, cruelty exacted on the Christians are downright infringing upon human rights and some even fatal.

Persecutions (direct and subtle) include the restriction on the building of churches and imposition of Islamic law on religious conversion, blasphemy and apostasy. I’m not sure whether the jizya (tax imposed on Christians by reason simply because they are not Muslims) does apply today, but if it is, the effect on the Christians can be devastating in term of being marginalized and humiliation.

Remember sometimes back, a Catholic Bishop in Pakistan committed suicide (not that he didn’t know suicide is wrong) in desperate attempt to protest against the country blasphemy law that convicted a Christian with the death penalty.

In some cases, direct hostilities against those Christians include desecration of their cemeteries (as in Indonesia), the burning of churches and even killing. Some of the killings are done on innocent villagers simply because they are Christians. The beheading of innocent Christian schoolgirls made headlines lately.

I’m not trying to fish hate here but to make the point that there are Christians participants in this forum who come from the countries mentioned. They may experience these persecutions first hand or may see them done to their people or even close relatives. What do we expect then, their perception on Islam as a religion, as many of these persecutions are made in the name of Islam and the Quran?

Being the minority, they cannot defend themselves and thus have to endure the suffering imposed upon them. They can’t argue out their cases otherwise blasphemous laws are applied to them.

In this forum, suddenly they can argue out their differences with Muslims. What do actually we expect the things they would argue out? Obviously, it’s the negativity of the religion of Islam, rightly or wrongly.

If their Muslim detractors in their respective countries based their action on the Quran, then the verses in the Quran, no matter how incriminating, are legitimate topics for discussion here (refer 1st post by the originator of this thread).

Christians need to talk out to the Muslims to exorcise out the evil of Islam in their (Christians) mind so that they can see our Muslim brethrens are just people like you and me, and not some monsters who are bent on burning our churches and smiting the necks of our women. And that it’s the fringes that create the cause of their misery. Hopefully it is the fringes.

We need to know and we need to learn about the finer aspect of Islam and its practices. We can’t blame Christians who feel that the utopian Islam is far from the reality, if they don’t see it being practiced by their own Muslims countrymen.

God bless.

Reuben.

P/S This post is written in the context of this thread. I would understand that Christians are also persecuted and restricted in their growth in non-Muslim countries, like China. Likewise, there would be Muslims who experienced unjust treatment by Christians in Christian majority countries.
 
I believe that as long as the quotations are based on evidence, it will be fair for all parties. If the quotations are misquoted, it will be a pleasure for Islam Followers to straighten it. I really do hope that the pesecution will end, for everyone, no matter what his/her religion is. My heart cries when I read about the cruel beheading of three women. And to think that it’s the fate that they are facing daily, isn’t it the time we share our love by giving our voices to our governments so they press the countries where persecution happen?
 
Reuben J:
This is a matter for debate, but to my mind there’s no doubt that some forms of persecutions and discriminations are meted out against the Christians by their Muslims counterparts there. This putting it mildly. In some cases, cruelty exacted on the Christians are downright infringing upon human rights and some even fatal.
Yes, you are right. I am posting from the comfort of the United States where I am not subjected to religious persecution. And truly, the suffering of non-Islamic persons in majority Muslim countries can be great.
In this forum, suddenly they can argue out their differences with Muslims. What do actually we expect the things they would argue out? Obviously, it’s the negativity of the religion of Islam, rightly or wrongly.
You are correct, and I can only listen respectfully, and with humility, to their experiences.
Christians need to talk out to the Muslims to exorcise out the evil of Islam in their (Christians) mind so that they can see our Muslim brethrens are just people like you and me, and not some monsters who are bent on burning our churches and smiting the necks of our women. And that it’s the fringes that create the cause of their misery. Hopefully it is the fringes.
Ah, but this is where it gets sticky. Who are likely to be the Muslims who come to this site? Surely they are not the monsters who commit the crimes that we hear about in the news. Wouldn’t they be most likely to be persons who seek mutual understanding? If we meet them with anger and judgmental attitudes, don’t we outrage them rather then encourage them?
We need to know and we need to learn about the finer aspect of Islam and its practices. We can’t blame Christians who feel that the utopian Islam is far from the reality, if they don’t see it being practiced by their own Muslims countrymen…
Again, you are right. The Muslims I know are good people, far removed from the indignities and the horrors which are committed in other parts of the world. The views I have expressed in this thread reflect my personal experience with Muslims. I worry that people in my country do fish for hate, using their own anger and judgemental attitudes as bait.

But those who live in Muslim countries have experiences very different from mine, and I have not allowed for their thoughts, emotions and experiences. This is a mistake on my part.
 
Hello GF. I agree with Reuben’s explanation. However I would like to comment on your post.
Guar Fan:
Ah, but this is where it gets sticky. Who are likely to be the Muslims who come to this site? Surely they are not the monsters who commit the crimes that we hear about in the news. Wouldn’t they be most likely to be persons who seek mutual understanding? If we meet them with anger and judgmental attitudes, don’t we outrage them rather then encourage them?
Being beast doesn’t mean you have to be beast every time you see your enemy. You have to use your tactic, make a trap, lying, and control your mind and your fear and your feel, you use everything to make it perfect so that they would think you are not their dangerous enemy. I may sound over reacted but this is what I see around me. Have a good day.
 
I see the sky is getting darker but there will be a big star coming from the west.
Mother nature knows everything, but she hides her knowledge in the secret smile of the crescent moon.
The star constellation and the position of planets suggest there will still be natural disasters coming by. Endurance and love are needed in this precious time. People will hate other people. I see the big beast of death is coming in the shape we never imagine. Beware oh brothers and sisters…beware…all is just the beginning
 
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Tanith:
I see the sky is getting darker but there will be a big star coming from the west.
Mother nature knows everything, but she hides her knowledge in the secret smile of the crescent moon.
The star constellation and the position of planets suggest there will still be natural disasters coming by. Endurance and love are needed in this precious time. People will hate other people. I see the big beast of death is coming in the shape we never imagine. Beware oh brothers and sisters…beware…all is just the beginning
Tanith… what are you talking about? Are you Hogwarts graduated? :confused: you sound like a witchcraft :eek:
 
Guar Fan:
I agree. Not only does it make us look petty, but it demonstrates a lack of charity as well. We are called to love our neighbors as ourselves. Searching for reasons to condemn is wrong.

I feel badly that we treat our Muslim guests in such a shameful manner.
You feel badly for the way we treat our Muslim guests (what is wrong with how we treat them?) yet you have no problem with the way Islam and Muslims treat non-Muslims? You have no problem with Islamic teachings (based on the Quran, Hadith and the example of Muhammad) that incite violence, death, humiliation and rape on non-Muslims? Command death for the apostate etc? You would rather us keep quiet on these teachings and/or forget about the millions of people who have suffered or been killed because them and continue to suffer and/or be killed because of these teachings? Something needs to be done for all the non-Muslims who have suffered or been killed, or at least continue to suffer and be killed, because of these teachings. That can’t be done if everyone keeps quiet about these Islamic teachings.

Also, who said condemning some Islamic teachings means we are not loving our neighbours as ourselves? We can love all Muslims (and we should love all people including Muslims), it doesn’t mean we have to say everything Muslims believe in is good or that their is nothing wrong with Islam. In fact, by showing these teachings of Islam, some Muslims may convert to Christianity and be saved. So if you love Muslims and hence want them to convert, talking about these teachings (in addition to talking about the teachings of Christianity) may very well be a good way to do it, at least for some people.
 
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