Three degrees of heaven

[catholic-rcia]

The 3 degrees of heaven

As a Catholic I believe in one degree of heaven, that the thief on the Cross was also gifted this degree, to be with God forever. I see myself as being no different than this thief, just blessed with better timing perhaps.

Give us a good insight as to the three degrees of heaven that your faith teaches. Your Church is what is coined the restored Church. Meaning the 3 degrees of heaven were taught to the first Apostles but this teaching was lost. If the Apostles taught this, if Jesus taught it to them, where in Holy Scripture is it found? Like the teaching on Celibacy, I had no idea that Jesus spoke avbout this until I was guided to that certain Scripture.

God Bless

 

[Catholic_Guy]

catholic-rcia:

The 3 degrees of heaven

As a Catholic I believe in one degree of heaven, that the thief on the Cross was also gifted this degree, to be with God forever. I see myself as being no different than this thief, just blessed with better timing perhaps.

Give us a good insight as to the three degrees of heaven that your faith teaches. Your Church is what is coined the restored Church. Meaning the 3 degrees of heaven were taught to the first Apostles but this teaching was lost. If the Apostles taught this, if Jesus taught it to them, where in Holy Scripture is it found? Like the teaching on Celibacy, I had no idea that Jesus spoke avbout this until I was guided to that certain Scripture.

God Bless

Let me sum up the degrees, VARSITY, JUNIOR VARSITY, and FRESHMAN heaven.

In Christ,
Catholic Guy

 

[Zakuska]

1 Cor 15
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

There are 3 degrees of Glory in the ressurection that ressurected bodies reflect… This is also demonstrated in the Parable of the Talents. 30 60 and 100.

 

[LDSGuy]

That is the common piece of scripture that is referenced when we discuss the three degrees of glory. This belief was further defined through revelation to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon. They saw the three kingdoms of Heaven, Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial.

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. (1 Corinthians 15:40-42)

We also see in John 14:2 that the Father’s House has many mansions, and this also references our belief in different degrees of glory in the one “house” of Heaven. This is one of my personal favorite restored beliefs, and is also unique among Christian churches.

 

[amgid]

catholic-rcia:

As a Catholic I believe in one degree of heaven, that the thief on the Cross was also gifted this degree, to be with God forever. I see myself as being no different than this thief, just blessed with better timing perhaps.

Give us a good insight as to the three degrees of heaven that your faith teaches. Your Church is what is coined the restored Church. Meaning the 3 degrees of heaven were taught to the first Apostles but this teaching was lost. If the Apostles taught this, if Jesus taught it to them, where in Holy Scripture is it found? Like the teaching on Celibacy, I had no idea that Jesus spoke avbout this until I was guided to that certain Scripture.

There are two fundamental flaws in your reasoning. Firstly, if the teaching had once existed in God’s true church, and than it was lost, then by definition it no longer “exists” for us to be able to demonstrate that it once “existed”. There are indeed many truths that have been lost, without trace, that we are no longer able to trace their previous existence, but which have now been restored. A typical example is chapter one of the Book of Moses, of which I will only quote verse 23 below (you can read the complete chapter here).

Moses 1:

23 And now of this thing Moses bore record; but because of wickedness it is not had among the children of men.On the other hand, there are also many truths that have been lost, that have not disappeared without trace, so that we are able to trace their original existence, either in scripture, or in the writings and practices of the early church. The doctrine of deification, and indeed of the three degrees of glory, fall in the latter category.

The second flaw in your reasoning is that you are assuming that everything that God has revealed to us in this dispensation, He must have revealed in a previous church or dispensation. That is not correct. in each dispensation God has revealed new truths that had not been revealed in previous dispensations; and in this dispensation God has specifically stated that He has will reveal many great new truths that had never been revealed in previous dispensations.

D&C 124:

40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;

41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.

D&C 128:

18 … for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.amgid

 

[catholic-rcia]

That would be a serious distortion of 1 Cor 15:40-42. This is why it is good to read the Bible in the context that it was written. St. Paul is not teaching what you are claiming. Not even close. You need to read the rest, especially verses 43 and 44. Look at it close and really think about it. It may hit you. What this change does is set the table for advancement, heavenly marriage etc… So it detracts from our only true center to be found “Christ” Are we looking for rewards in heaven?

The parables need to be read over and over again. The only reward we should be focused on is being with God through Christ forever. Otherwise we will be fooled to go into another direction. It may look really good, but it is the wrong direction. I love my family, but I have come to love Jesus much more. I leave my family in His hands not mine. I have decided as a Christian that I will willingly give him the command of my families Titanic, the one I used to steer. This takes an abundance of prayer. He has done a very good job ever since I have handed it over. My wife and children have come to appreciate this fact. My wife loves it when I love Jesus more than her. Because she then gets a whole lot more love from Him through me.

 

[tkdnick]

amgid:

There are two fundamental flaws in your reasoning. Firstly, if the teaching had once existed in God’s true church, and than it was lost, then by definition it no longer “exists” for us to be able to demonstrate that it once “existed”. There are indeed many truths that have been lost, without trace, that we are no longer able to trace their previous existence, but which have now been restored.

No offense, but this is an awfully easy “copout” for any belief that there is no proof of other than current LDS beliefs. As far as this idea behind the Great Apostacy is concerned, the burden proof falses on the LDS to prove it occurred.

 

[Zakuska]

catholic-rcia:

That would be a serious distortion of 1 Cor 15:40-42
Ah no… Paul flat out says there are three levels of Glory in the ressurection. He makes reference to it here as well.

2 Cor. 3: 18
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The Parable of the Talents is dirrectly related to the rewards that Christ will met out at the second coming.

So it detracts from our only true center to be found “Christ” Are we looking for rewards in heaven?

Perhaps you should not be lecturing the Savior the Apostles and the early saints like that.

Why did they do what they did? Even Giving their lives willingy to the lions.

Heb. 11: 35
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Matt. 6: 20
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Matt. 13: 44
44 ¶ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Matt. 19: 21
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 12: 33
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

Luke 18: 22
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

2 Jn. 1: 8
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Matt. 10: 41
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.

Matt. 10: 42
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Luke 6: 23
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

1 Cor. 3: 14
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Consider the reward…

Matt. 5: 12
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matt. 6: 1
1 TAKE heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 6: 6
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matt. 6: 18
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Matt. 16: 27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Luke 6: 35
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

1 Cor. 3: 8
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1 Cor. 9: 17
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Col. 2: 18
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col. 3: 24
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Heb. 10: 35
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Heb. 11: 6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I don’t know about you but Im like the Apostle John… I want a full reward. I never liked a half full cup.

 

[Zakuska]

tkdnick:

No offense, but this is an awfully easy “copout” for any belief that there is no proof of other than current LDS beliefs. As far as this idea behind the Great Apostacy is concerned, the burden proof falses on the LDS to prove it occurred.

History proves it. Thats why it was called “the dark ages”.

 

[tkdnick]

Zakuska:

History proves it. Thats why it was called “the dark ages”.

Oh, of course, it all makes perfect sense now…

 

[catholic-rcia]

“Perhaps you should not be lecturing the Savior the Apostles and the early saints like that.

Why did they do what they did? Even Giving their lives willingly to the lions.”

“Do you study these Saints of the ApostolicChurch in your faith, thousands and thousand of them who gave their live up to Christ Jesus”

catholic.org/saints/doctors.php

catholic.org/saints/stindex.php

Here is the one who brought me to Christ

catholic-rcia.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

And here is a bit of my heart that goes out to them

catholic-rcia.com/pages/Catholic%20Saints.html

Many seek earthly rewards in Heaven, not one of the beautiful passages you shared speaks of seeking earthly rewards in heaven. My reward has always been the same for me, when I can be in the Grace of God here on earth, if even for a moment I have already received it. I received my reward from Christ’s death on the Cross for me. My reward comes through the personal relationship that I have with Jesus on a daily basis. Never is this reward made more apparent than receiving Him in the Eucharist at the Most Holy Mass. Although I live this reward dimly here on earth I look forward to being with my reward for ever and ever, to be with my Christ for all eternity, to be loved by the Father forever, jus as Christ has always been loved by Him. . I don’t look for any rewards other than Him who created me here on earth and I trust in Him that it will continue in Heaven. Christ is my reward, there is no other that I seek,… None.

Heb. 11: 35
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Matt. 6: 20
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

“Christ is our treasure in Heaven”

Matt. 13: 44
44 ¶ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

“I discovered this field six years ago in Christ and His Church, this is my favorite parable. Winning a million dollar lottery could not ever compare”

Matt. 19: 21
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

We have many in the Church that have done this, given up all earthly gain, status, money etc… to follow Him. Here just one out of thousands

ewtn.com/motherteresa/index.htm

Luke 12: 33
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not gold, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

“To be with God forever”

Continued–

 

[catholic-rcia]

Luke 18: 22

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

2 Jn. 1: 8

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

“This would be to receive Christ”

Matt. 10: 41
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.

Matt. 10: 42
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

“To do as Christ does, to allow Christ to work through you, not seeking the Glory as all glory is His”

Luke 6: 23
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

“To be with God forever, to walk in His Grace, because of the light of Christ”

1 Cor. 3: 14
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

“Our good works our Christ’s works, all Glory to Him”

Matt. 5: 12
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

“They were persecuted because they clothed themselves in Christ, Christ being their reward”

Matt. 6: 1
1 TAKE heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

“It is Gods Glory not yours or Mine, God is enough, do not look for rewards or esteem of any kind from others accept being only a good servant to the Good Shepard, give it all up to Him, Point always to Him”

Matt. 6: 6
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

“Jesus was perfect in this”

Continued----

 

[catholic-rcia]

Matt. 6: 18
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Looking for glory from others is always wrong, is not God enough, He knows our hearts, he is the only one that matters in such matters, unless one wants to be seen as good rather than just doing what has been asked by the Father. A son does not earn a place in heaven, rather a son is given a place by God. It is a gift.

Matt. 16: 27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

“Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”

Luke 6: 35
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

1 Cor. 3: 8
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Do we work for God in His Vineyard? Or do we work for our own vineyard? Two different ways to look at rewards. All rewards are God rewards. We get to share in this reward, the reward that Jesus has always shared with the Father. This reward is Love, the love between the Father and the Son.

1 Cor. 9: 17
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Col. 2: 18
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

“Earthy rewards? To have everything that one would want as a human but only better. or Spiritual rearwards, to have the love that Jesus has always had with the Father?”

Col. 3: 24
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

“This one pretty much sums it up”

Heb. 10: 35
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

 

[Zakuska]

We don’t study them litergically. We have Martyrs of our own, and of course all the Apostles met gruesome ends. But you can take seminary courses that does study the Christian martyrs.

Thats a pretty shallow understanding of the heavenly rewards and promises if you ask me. There is so much more than just Jesus. And God wants you to have it all if you will just stand up and take it while he offeres it.

Rev 1
6 And hath made us **kings and priests ** unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 2: 7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev. 2: 11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev. 2: 17
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Rev. 2: 26
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end,** to him will I give power over the nations:**

Rev. 3: 5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3: 12
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev. 3: 21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev. 21: 7
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Everything the Father has will be ours if only we will obey him.

Ruling Nations sounds pretty "earthly " if you ask me.

 

[catholic-rcia]

“I am the bread of life” - **Jn **6:48"I am the light of the world" - **Jn **8:12"I am the door" - Jn 10:9"I am the good shepherd" - **Jn **10:11"I am the resurrection and the life" - **Jn **11:25"I am the way, the truth, and the life" - Jn 14:6"I am the vine" - Jn 15:5

Zakuska:

Thats a pretty shallow understanding of the heavenly rewards and promises if you ask me. There is so much more than just Jesus. And God wants you to have it all if you will just stand up and take it while he offeres it.

Zakuska, please read where Jesus was tempted in the dessert and think about what you have written in regards to this:

Zakuska:

And God wants you to have it all if you will just stand up and take it while he offeres it.

In sincere humilty I have to say this; you really need to come to know whom offers what. Satan offers earthly things, while Jesus offers heavenly things. To be with God Forever, that is enough.

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409

• Joseph Smith: prophet, of The LDS Church

As long as men and women seek to gain their sense of significance and self-worth from anything other than God, they will be set up for temptation. Certain people, places, or things will always have an inordinate ability to lure them into sin. Until they change their definition of significance and until they transfer their security to Someone who can give them real security, they will never experience lasting victory in their lives…Source: aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=f1c18737d81e57e2ed058d981588dbc446c513ab20fa52a8&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8

 

[ben_dy]

C-RCIA

Actually, there are five:
Doctrine & Covenants Section 131:1-4:

1 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

As the LDS Gospel Principles explains this revelation:
Gospel Principles (p. 297):

Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple (see D&C 131:1–4). All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever (see D&C 76:62).

So there are really five degrees of heaven in LDS doctrine - three in the celestial kingdom: one in which you become a god (and then, presumably, go to claim your increase with planets, wives, and children of you own - spirit children who will inhabit the planet Benedict (in my case). But there is one important thing to note about “spirit children” according to Gospel Principles (p. 290) - they aren’t “children” at all - ever! There are no children in LDS heaven!
Gospel Principles (p. 290):

“All spirits are in adult form. They were adults before their mortal existence, and they are in adult form after death, even if they die as infants or children”

Not really certain how time is occupied in the other two degrees of LDS celestial heaven - Smith doesn’t tell us and all that Gospel Principles has to say is that, like Catholic heaven, “All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever.”

Following these three degrees of the celestial kingdom are, of course, the terrestrial, inhabited by “…the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men” and “also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant.” (Gospel Principles (p. 297)) I suppose that this means Catholics, protestants, and LDS who were excommunicated.

And then the telestial kingdom comes along -
Gospel Principles (p. 298):

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–86, 103–6.)

These are the three (or five) LDS “degrees of glory”.

Outside of these degrees of glory are those who will dwell in

Outer Darkness
Gospel Principles (p. 298):

These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–35, 44–48.)

Hmm - maybe this is where excommunicated LDS and apostates end up? Maybe only Mormons who convert to Catholicism or some sort of protestant sect? Or Catholics or protestants (or Jews, Hindus, Muslims, atheists, etc., who send the missionaries on their way?). I suppose only the god of our planet and the living prophet knows…

 

[Zakuska]

catholic-rcia

“I am the bread of life” - Jn 6:48

Matt. 4: 4
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

What if you miss some of the words that God has spoken?

“I am the light of the world” - Jn 8:12

Matt. 5: 16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

“I am the door” - Jn 10:9

Hmmm I though he was the carpenter.

The Shepard of Hermas has some good insites here.

“I am the good shepherd” - Jn 10:11

John 21: 17
17 …Feed my sheep.

“I am the resurrection and the life” - Jn 11:25

No problems here.

“I am the way, the truth, and the life” - Jn 14:6

Nobody comes to the father. You need to get over Jesus and come to the Lord.

“I am the vine” - Jn 15:5

Yeah thats where the grapes of wrath comes from.

Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409

• Joseph Smith: prophet, of The LDS Church

Whats intresting about this quote is what your anti Mormon site you pulled it from did not tell you. This “Boast” was made in a discourse in which Joseph Smith had just quoted the following from the Bible.

2 Cor 11
16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into abondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
21 I speak as concerning areproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I aforty• stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

Joseph Smith, as was Paul is using hyperbole to make a point. He’s mocking his detractors. Who where boasting against him.

You can read the whole discourse here.
carm.org/lds/docs/HC_v6_408-9.htm
(I wish this was online at the church site)

He “Boasting” as the “fools boasts”.

Did Christ hold his church together? How man people left him when he preached ritualized canibalism? Did not even his Apostles leave him and return to their fishing nets.

What you are doing is turning the son into an Idol and a stumbling block. You need to leave the principles and the milk of the Gospel and move on to the meat and come to his father and perfection (Heb 6).

Paul continually put himself between Christ and the world.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Zakuska:

catholic-rcia

Did Christ hold his church together? How man people left him when he preached ritualized canibalism? Did not even his Apostles leave him and return to their fishing nets.

What you are doing is turning the son into an Idol and a stumbling block. You need to leave the principles and the milk of the Gospel and move on to the meat and come to his father and perfection (Heb 6).

“What if you miss some of the words that God has spoken?”

Jesus died for me a sinner, in order to come out of sin, into a life with God

This tells me plenty in what you have writen, I will say a prayer for your soul tonight before I go to bed. Many of His disciples did leave Him, His Apostles stayed with Him and were rewarded with the last super.

In all sincerity, I hope you find some light. In our faith Christ is everything. I do appreciate your honesty, it is rare to have a Mormon speak as you have spoken. It usually happens when Christ is placed in the forefront, it takes a bit of doing, but you have done it and done it well. You need to save all of these postings and reflect on what was said through you and by whom.
You can be set free, you have this choice.
Good luck

 

[Zakuska]

Who says that Im not set free.

This tells me plenty in what you have writen, I will say a prayer for your soul tonight before I go to bed. Many of His disciples did leave Him, His Apostles stayed with Him and were rewarded with the last super.

After his death his Apostles went back to fishing thought the whole thing was a farce. Then when he shows up on the shore and cooks some fish Peter is naked in the boat and jumps into the water.

Ill pray for you as well that the spirit of the restoration can touch your heart.

 

[ben_dy]

Zakuska:

Who says that Im not set free.



After his death his Apostles went back to fishing thought the whole thing was a farce. Then when he shows up on the shore and cooks some fish Peter is naked in the boat and jumps into the water.

Are we speaking of the same Apostles? What Apostle called Christ’s life, death, and resurrection “a farce”? JS says - as you say - that “The followers of Jesus ran away from Him;” - and, it is true, those who rejected then, and reject now, the miracle of the Eucharist did run away from Him: but far more were those who did not run away, some to the point of martyrdom.

Smith continues"…but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." Yet how many had abandoned Smith by this point in Nauvoo? Not a small number - even a number of those who had aided Smith in the founding of his church.

Paul boasted as a fool for Christ: Smith boasted as a fool for himself. There is a great difference.

Zakuska:

Ill pray for you as well that the spirit of the restoration can touch your heart.

If the restored gospel elevates Smith above God - which you seem to be indicating - then I doubt that there is much chance of “the spirit of the restoration” touching c-rcia’s heart: I do not think, from what I have read of his messages, that his heart is full of anything but the Gospel, which you mock in saying, “You need to leave the principles and the milk of the Gospel”.

Abandon the principles of the Gospel? Never. Boast of myself and not of Christ? Never.