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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Thanks for this, gilliam. :yup: 
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Matt25
Guest
From the article-
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1916580.stm
**Vatican outrage over church siege
**The Vatican has issued a stern warning to Israel to respect religious sites in line with its international obligations, following a gun battle around Bethlehem’s besieged Church of the Nativity…
A spokesman for Catholic monks in the Holy Land said earlier that Israeli soldiers were guilty of an “indescribable act of barbarity”. Israel had broken its international obligations and risked “long-term and incalculable” consequences, Father David Jaeger said.
Speaking from Rome, he said monks at the church had reported damage to “sacred spaces” and evidence that Israeli troops had entered the church. The Pope, who has urged people to pray for peace in the Middle East, on Monday described the violence in the Holy Land as having reached “unimaginable and intolerable” levels
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1915000/images/_1917054_cleric-afp-150.jpg Christian clerics from Jerusalem were kept by Israel from entering Bethlehem on Monday
No they didn’t. The church was desecrated by the Israeli’s firing at it. This “fact” from the article like most of the rest of the piece is mendacious, inaccurate and untruthful nonsense designed to stir up hatred against the Muslims.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1916580.stm
**Vatican outrage over church siege
**The Vatican has issued a stern warning to Israel to respect religious sites in line with its international obligations, following a gun battle around Bethlehem’s besieged Church of the Nativity…
A spokesman for Catholic monks in the Holy Land said earlier that Israeli soldiers were guilty of an “indescribable act of barbarity”. Israel had broken its international obligations and risked “long-term and incalculable” consequences, Father David Jaeger said.
Speaking from Rome, he said monks at the church had reported damage to “sacred spaces” and evidence that Israeli troops had entered the church. The Pope, who has urged people to pray for peace in the Middle East, on Monday described the violence in the Holy Land as having reached “unimaginable and intolerable” levels
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1915000/images/_1917054_cleric-afp-150.jpg Christian clerics from Jerusalem were kept by Israel from entering Bethlehem on Monday
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gilliam
Guest
So you setup a base in a Church and that is OK?
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Jeanette_L
Guest
The problem is, we Americans (and the West in general) are too spoiled to sacrifice anything even if it is for our own good. We need to find new technologies, new ways of life… to survive and get along without all that oil, but it’s too hard. We’re too fat, too lazy, too enamoured with ourselves to do what is necessary to save ourselves from this mess. We can’t even stick to our guns and stay until the job is done in Iraq. Everybody whines, and whines, and whines.
We are pathetic, and unfortunately, we’re gonna end up getting exactly what we deserve. It’s depressing!
Jeanette
We are pathetic, and unfortunately, we’re gonna end up getting exactly what we deserve. It’s depressing!
Jeanette
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gilliam
Guest
Jeanette L:
Watch us.
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bones_IV
Guest
God is going to give Israel what ever it deserves. Same for Palestine. Given the United State’s over whelming favoritism of Israel.
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Jeanette_L
Guest
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean that the military didn’t have the staying power. I meant that the will of the American people is soft. We are way too easily influenced by the wimpy media and intellectuals who have been crying and saying we should be really scared from day one! They have been trying to orchestrate our defeat as soon as we left the starting gate.
I wish I had the confidence you have. I think that middle America shares your view, but urban America is too self centered and cowardly.
But I hope you are the one who is right!
Jeanette
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Jeanette L:
Jeanette L:
Jeanette L:
Jeanette L:
Jeanette L:
Jeanette L:
Please do not include me in that “we.”
Jeanette L:
All that oil. What oil are we getting along without that’s too hard?
Jeanette L:
We are too fat, too lazy? This sounds like a sly way of namecalling others: by attempting to include them in the category of “we.” Normally when folks start namecalling, they forfeit the moral authority to continue in the discussion.
Jeanette L:
Where are you getting this? Would you provide a link please so that “we” can know what you are talking about?
Jeanette L:
Who exactly is whining?
Jeanette L:
And what – praytell – are you proposing that “we” deserve?
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Jeanette_L
Guest
Ani Ibi:
In the meantime, relax a little, will ya? You’re seeming way too uptight about this. I was just making a little converstion.
Sorry, I was generalizing, but at the same time including myself in there. I have been guilty of not being prudent, temporate, and grateful for what I have, or willing to sacrifice as much as I should to insure our way of life.
We’re not getting along without any oil. That’s our problem, we are too dependent on foreign oil to be able to make good foreign policy decisions.
I am part of them. When I say “we”, I mean “we”, including myself. I am not pointing the finger at anyone that I am not willing to point to myself first. I’m not sure why you’re getting so offended here. If you’re not part of the “we” then you have nothing to be upset about. All you have to do is look at our culture, all our health problems, emotional problems, educational problems, financial problems, to know that we have some issues to resolve.
I’m sorry if you’re not following me here. I didn’t think this was such a complicated response to the article.
Do you watch the news or read the newspapers at all? You tell me you don’t hear a lot of whining about our foreign policy decisions, especially if they seem risky for us?
That’s not for me to decide really. I don’t raise the nations up or put them down. There’s a higher power (wanna guess?) who deals with that. I hope we get Mercy instead of whatever we might deserve.
In the meantime, relax a little, will ya? You’re seeming way too uptight about this. I was just making a little converstion.
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bones_IV
Guest
I am not going to come down on one side of people nor of the other. What did Pope John Paul II do when he visited Palestine he visited leaders of both countries? I condemn terrorist acts, but I also take strong exception to the acts and conditions that led such acts of desparation. The purpose of the Church is not lead a political, military or economic crusade to ensure a just society. That’s what the government does. The social mission of the Church is not to supplant the state. Also the Church does not just sit aside and let states do as they please. It’s a tough role for the Vatican to play, and it may make both sides unhappy at one point or another, but that’s the way it is.
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Matt25
Guest
Did the Vatican condemn the people fleeing the Israeli army and taking sanctuary in a Church? Sanctuary was already an ancient function of the Church long before Columbus crosswed the ocean blue.
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Matt25
Guest
Jeanette L:
You mean people like the then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger who said zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=34882 *There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a “just war.”
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Jeanette_L
Guest
At least he said it is a question we should be asking ourselves. You are going to be hard pressed to find a pope in our era who is not extremely causious about war. One mistake could be the end of all of us. I’m not saying we shouldn’t be at war, I happen to dissagree with the above opinion, but then, I’m not a church official, or a military or political strategist either. I could be wrong about a lot of things. I admit my own limitations.
Keeping our head in the sand while there is a growing problem with terrorism and the countries that happily fund it and provide weapons…is not the smart way either. And that’s what we did under the Clinton administration in the '90’s. It didn’t prevent a calamity for us.
I draw a distinction myself about how I am supposed to deal with my enemies on a personal, day to day basis, and how countries need to deal with them in defense of their people. War is never an easy or always clear decision. The circumstances you are presented with, when they look really threatening, like, say, a couple of your cities under attack and multiple thousands dying in an instant with many threats of more to come, that to me sounds like a just reason to engage.
But, like I said, I am apt to be wrong. I was made well aware of my shortcoming by another poster on this site. Whew! Things get unfriendly here in no time!
I’m going back to Apologetics, now. Much easier crowd!
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mjdonnelly
Guest
Find a recent document showing the practice of sanctuary, something in the 20th century.
It was the same as Al-Zarquarwai (sp?) holding up in a mosque in Iraq, we should have hit it, it is a violation of international law to use religious sites, hospitals, etc as bases of operation.
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Robert_Bay
Guest
General Reminder:
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This discussion has strayed from its original topic. Please return to the original topic under discussion. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
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