Three points on the recent SSPX ordinations [Peters]

[PaulinVA]

maurin, so you see the doctrinal discussions with SSPX as an opportunity for the Church to change, to get back on course?

A few months ago I would have laughed at you for holding that view. Now, not so much. I am trying to move past where the renewal or revival comes from, just that we see it starting. So, yes, maybe that’s the ticket.

I think there are many in the Church who are dissatisfied. The ones on the liberal side get the most press, agitating for married priest and women priests and such. On the conservative side, there is a sadness at the polls that show Catholics no longer believe what they used to, and they no longer believe what the Church believes. SSPX has a singular answer to the problem

 

[pnewton]

pnewton, c’mon. did I or did I not say that the NO Mass is not the weed? It’s the filthy rotten system of modernism. the modernists were so clever that most Catholics believe modernism is Tradition. And modernists invade the Traditional Forum with the firm belief that they are the Traditional ones.
…

I am sorry if I misunderstood. Yes, I may disagree how “protestantized” the Mass is or whether the *philosphy *of modernism (as opposed to modern) is incorporated in the Mass, but not on the nature of modernism itself.

Interestingly enough, even Protestants have to deal with the influence of modernism destroying their theology. As a Baptist, I was about as conservative as they came. (Traditional, if you will).

 

[maurin]

I am sorry if I misunderstood.

for the sake of clarity, do you mean “if you misunderstood me,” or “that you have misunderstood me.” Small point, but there is a difference.

Yes, I may disagree how “protestantized” the Mass is or whether the *philosphy *of modernism (as opposed to modern) is incorporated in the Mass, but not on the nature of modernism itself.

again, for the sake of clarity, do you mean "to what degree the Mass has been ‘protestantized’, or do you mean “that the Mass has been ‘protestantized’ at all.”? there is a difference. And again, I’m not looking for a debate on the subject (but won’t shy away from one), only to clarify what you said.

Interestingly enough, even Protestants have to deal with the influence of modernism destroying their theology.

the foundation of protestantism is modernism, so your statement is a bit of an understatement, in my opinion. I may be wrong.

 

[ProVobis]

Besides, why would any bishop want to step between the Vatican and the SSPX at this time? I do not see how that could be productive.

I do. Maybe it would show some good faith instead of constantly slamming their order down, whether they be excommunicated or not. And where is it written these priests wouldn’t eventually want to be diocesan priests?

 

[JReducation]

I do. Maybe it would show some good faith instead of constantly slamming their order down, whether they be excommunicated or not. And where is it written these priests wouldn’t eventually want to be diocesan priests?

This is just a technical clarification. The SSPX is not an order or a congregation or a secular institute or a society of apostolic life. It is a priestly fraternity. They do not make vows nor are they consecrated men. They are diocesan or what canon law calls secular priests. Unofortunately, they do not have a legal place in the Church.

When they become regularized, which I pray will happen, they will have to choose to remain together as a priestly fraternity for secular priests and a leadership will be appointed by the Holy See. This is canon law. There is no way around that. You can’t have priests without an Ordinary. It most likely be one of their bishops. The other option is for the individuals who want it to petition the bishop of their choice to be incardinated into that bishop’s diocese. At the time that the incardination is complete, they belong to that diocese.

The final option is for those who feel a call to the consecrated life is to request admission to a religious order, a religious congregation, a secular institute or a society of apostolic life. This gets tricky. To become a consecrated man or woman you must give up your allegiance to any other organization in the Church and outside the Church. Religious men cannot have any allegiance to any group except their order and to any leader, except their founder, his successors and to the Holy Father. In effect, if an SSPX priest becomes a consecrated religious, he ceases to be a member of the SSPX and submits to the authority of a religious superior and the rule of the community. The community will determine whether he can celebrate the EF or the OF or both, because the vow of obedience trumps Holy Orders. Therefore, the Motu Propio does not apply to consecrated religious. As it says int he MP, religious clerics must follow the norms of their institute regarding the EF and OF.

I didn’t mean to make it this long. But I did want to clarify the technical difference between the SSPX and consecrated men. The SSPX are diocesans, without a diocese. That’s the sad part about it. Sometimes, people can be mean to those who are homeless. That’s not right. I do not defend or justify it. I believe that if priests of the SSPX became incardinated into a diocese or become consecrated men, they will experience some relief. Hopefully, if they are regularize, they will also experience relief from those around them. Then they’ll be a priestly society just like Maryknoll or the Vincentians. No one ever picks on them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

JR, thanks for the friendly explanation.

 

[JReducation]

JR, thanks for the friendly explanation.

You’re most welcome. As I have stated before. Even though I strongly disagree with the good Archbishop L. I also disagree with those who browbeat this issue until it is ground meat. This includes both sides.

There is no room in our hearts for hatred, discrimination and psychological abuse. At the presentation of the Lord in the temple we are reminded of the humility that we must always observe in our lives. “They had nothing to offer but two turtle doves.” In other words, they had nothing to offer but two symbols of peace. Two is the sign of unity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[maurin]

This is just a technical clarification. The SSPX is not an order or a congregation or a secular institute or a society of apostolic life. It is a priestly fraternity. They do not make vows nor are they consecrated men. They are diocesan or what canon law calls secular priests. Unofortunately, they do not have a legal place in the Church.

When they become regularized, which I pray will happen, they will have to choose to remain together as a priestly fraternity for secular priests and a leadership will be appointed by the Holy See. This is canon law. There is no way around that. You can’t have priests without an Ordinary. It most likely be one of their bishops. The other option is for the individuals who want it to petition the bishop of their choice to be incardinated into that bishop’s diocese. At the time that the incardination is complete, they belong to that diocese.

The final option is for those who feel a call to the consecrated life is to request admission to a religious order, a religious congregation, a secular institute or a society of apostolic life. This gets tricky. To become a consecrated man or woman you must give up your allegiance to any other organization in the Church and outside the Church. Religious men cannot have any allegiance to any group except their order and to any leader, except their founder, his successors and to the Holy Father. In effect, if an SSPX priest becomes a consecrated religious, he ceases to be a member of the SSPX and submits to the authority of a religious superior and the rule of the community. The community will determine whether he can celebrate the EF or the OF or both, because the vow of obedience trumps Holy Orders. Therefore, the Motu Propio does not apply to consecrated religious. As it says int he MP, religious clerics must follow the norms of their institute regarding the EF and OF.

I didn’t mean to make it this long. But I did want to clarify the technical difference between the SSPX and consecrated men. The SSPX are diocesans, without a diocese. That’s the sad part about it. Sometimes, people can be mean to those who are homeless. That’s not right. I do not defend or justify it. I believe that if priests of the SSPX became incardinated into a diocese or become consecrated men, they will experience some relief. Hopefully, if they are regularize, they will also experience relief from those around them. Then they’ll be a priestly society just like Maryknoll or the Vincentians. No one ever picks on them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

It actually appears to be a personal prelature for the SSPX, JR. It’s been bandied about between Rome and the Society.

 

[JReducation]

It actually appears to be a personal prelature for the SSPX, JR. It’s been bandied about between Rome and the Society.

Thanks for reminding me about that. It is another option. They would be like Opus Dei. Which ever way you cut it, they need an Ordinary to have a place in the Church. In the end that’s what we want for them, to find a home.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[maurin]

Thanks for reminding me about that. It is another option. They would be like Opus Dei. Which ever way you cut it, they need an Ordinary to have a place in the Church. In the end that’s what we want for them, to find a home.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

What you mean to say is they will have a similar Canonical structure as OD. splitting hairs, I know, but it’s a distinction that may need to be stated. We already have our “Ordinaries,” JR. We’re waiting patiently for the Doctrinal talks to begin. And all the jurisdiction needed for our Priests is already supplied.

 

[JReducation]

What you mean to say is they will have a similar Canonical structure as OD. splitting hairs, I know, but it’s a distinction that may need to be stated. We already have our “Ordinaries,” JR. We’re waiting patiently for the Doctrinal talks to begin. And all the jurisdiction needed for our Priests is already supplied.

Actually the SSPX has bishops, but not Ordinaries. An ordinary is one who has a canonical see. A bishop of a diocese is an Ordinary, the religious superior of a male religious order is an Ordinary (he need not be a preist), the head of a prelature is not an Ordinary. The Ordinary of a prelature is the Holy Father. That’s why it is called “Personal Prelature”.

Let’s keep this legal. When the Holy Father lifted the excommunications he said that the bishops did not enjoy any episcopal authority or have any see in the Church. Therefore, they cannot be Ordinaries.

I came back to insert what the Holy Father had said when he lifted the excommunication.

until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica_en.html

Remember, being a bishop does not make you an ordinary. My religious superior is not a priest and he is an Ordinary. He has the authority of a bishop over those in his jurisdiction. This is what the SSPX needs, canonical jurisdiction.

This is not a put down of the SSPX. It’s a clarification of a technical difficulty. If all of us want to be in communion with the Holy Father and we do, we have to accept his rules for the time being. Therefore, the priests and deacons of the SSPX have bishops, but not Ordinaries.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[maurin]

JR, I did put “Ordinaries” in quotes, but thanks for the lesson.

When’re you gonna be in Fla?

 

[JReducation]

JR, I did put “Ordinaries” in quotes, but thanks for the lesson.

When’re you gonna be in Fla?

First week of Aug and if you give me any TLM/SSPX hard time, I’ll steal your seven wives and three camels.

Br. JR

 

[maurin]

First week of Aug and if you give me any TLM/SSPX hard time, I’ll steal your seven wives and three camels.

Br. JR

As long as you don’t make me hold hands and sing “Kumbaya,” I think we’ll be ok, JR.

 

[TeresaAnn]

Thanks for the posts Br. JR

 

[JReducation]

Thanks for the posts Br. JR

You’re very welcome. I’m just trying to share some of our spirituality and keep us all with our heads above water and our feet on the ground.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

As long as you don’t make me hold hands and sing “Kumbaya,” I think we’ll be ok, JR.

I’ll sing many hymns and spiritual songs in any language, but Kumbaya is where I draw the line.

Maybe I would feel more comfortable with it if I were in a mission station in Africa or some place like that. I don’t know.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[maurin]

I’ll sing many hymns and spiritual songs in any language, but Kumbaya is where I draw the line.

Maybe I would feel more comfortable with it if I were in a mission station in Africa or some place like that. I don’t know.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I’m practicing Regina Caeli right now…Regina Caeli jubila, gaude Maria. Jam pulsa cedunt nubila. Alleluia, laetare O Maria!

 

[Hyacinth_II]

You’re very welcome. I’m just trying to share some of our spirituality and keep us all with our heads above water and our feet on the ground.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you Br. JR. Your insights are valuable and food for thought for all of us. I join you in committing this issue to God in prayer. We need to turn our thoughts to unity, love and forgiveness. Follow our Holy Father’s example. Trust in the Lord and don’t be fearful about “how it will turn out”. Let’s put our faith in Our Lord and He will not disappoint us.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you Br. JR. Your insights are valuable and food for thought for all of us. I join you in committing this issue to God in prayer. We need to turn our thoughts to unity, love and forgiveness. Follow our Holy Father’s example. Trust in the Lord and don’t be fearful about “how it will turn out”. Let’s put our faith in Our Lord and He will not disappoint us.

I believe that Hyacinth has the right of this folks. It is time to place our trust in God and to start working on peace. We cannot reconstruct the house of the Lord if the workers are fighting each other.

It is clear that there are disagreements. Some disagreements are deep and about foundational issues. But there is no reason for those disagreements to be the cause of anger, resentment, rejection, lack of charity and most importanty . . . those disagreements cannot absorb us to the point that we forget the other pressing issues that face all Catholics and men of good will.

Now I’m speaking about the righ to be born. One good place for those of us who are out here to begin the healing process is in the promotion of human dignity and the proclamation of the sacredness of human life. I cannot think of any dogma or any discipline that would justify not attending to the most fundamental dogma of all. God created all life and he made it good.

When men and women from all parts of the Church, the SSPX, the Orthodox, the conservatives, the liberals the short ones and the tall ones, the young and old and so forth . . . when all Catholics unite behind this fundamental truth, we will find that discussion of our differences will take place in peace and in a spirit of brotherhood, because we are united by the most fundamental truth of all. God is Father and there is no other God nor any other Father. All life belongs to that Father and must be respected and loved, because it is stamped with the signature of the Father.

Let us unite in the most fundamental dogma of all. From there we will find that unity in other matters is just a process that we have to go through, not a battle that anyone has to win.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF