Three Positive Signs for Obama's Re-Election Chances

[ishii]

Yes, Ishii, I think some of the Catholics left the thread once they explained to others that their Church does not tell them they can not vote for Obama’s reelection.

Another one or two might have left after their logic determined that strawman comparisons were being used.

And 100 yrs ago no one thought there would ever be something such as a private internet forum business calling itself “Catholic Answers”.

Which also has nothing to do with pedophilia ever becoming legal.

So now with the “reality” TV show “Wife Swap” being brought forth by you as an “argument”, I too shall exercise my logic and leave the thread as well.

Peace.

It seems to me these are your choices:

1)You can say, " Yes, I would vote for the pro-pedophilia rights candidate, because they are for funding for healthcare and I can overlook their support for pedophilia because I agree with them on other issues, I’m not a single issue voter, blah blah blah."

2)You can say, " No, I wouldn’t vote for the pedophilia rights candidate under any circumstances even if they are for other things I like such as socialized medicine because it would be morally wrong to vote for a candidate who is for pedophile rights."

#1 is where you logic would take you. If you’re consistent, then you’d have to support the pedophilie rights candidate.

If you answer #2 then the whole foundation of your argument for voting for Obama falls apart.

I can see why you left the thread.

Ishii

 

[estesbob]

It seems to me these are your choices:

1)You can say, " Yes, I would vote for the pro-pedophilia rights candidate, because they are for funding for healthcare and I can overlook their support for pedophilia because I agree with them on other issues, I’m not a single issue voter, blah blah blah."

2)You can say, " No, I wouldn’t vote for the pedophilia rights candidate under any circumstances even if they are for other things I like such as socialized medicine because it would be morally wrong to vote for a candidate who is for pedophile rights."

#1 is where you logic would take you. If you’re consistent, then you’d have to support the pedophilie rights candidate.

If you answer #2 then the whole foundation of your argument for voting for Obama falls apart.

I can see why you left the thread.

Ishii

Unfortunately the third alternative we have seen offered in this thread is that molesting children is much worse than killing them

 

[ishii]

Unfortunately the third alternative we have seen offered in this thread is that molesting children is much worse than killing them

I have found that when they realize their logic and arguments are falling apart, they make themselves scarce, and this is no different. Just like the pro-abortion Barbara Boxer, who couldn’t handle Santorum’s arguments and logic, they say, " I will not answer." And then they leave. Mind you, I don’t judge their hearts, just their logic and positions. They may be convinced that they are right and may even be good people otherwise. They just seem to have a blind spot. How sad.

Ishii

 

[rlg94086]

Unfortunately the third alternative we have seen offered in this thread is that molesting children is much worse than killing them

Actually, the third alternative was running away with fingers in ears yelling “la la la, I can’t hear you.” It’s what liberals do, when they can’t support their viewpoint.

 

[kimmielittle]

I think the problem is some people have not taken logic 101, or philosophy 101.

While that explains their debate skills…It doesn’t explain a political conviction over a moral truth.

 

[kimmielittle]

You’re not asking what people think but yes I see and understand where you think my logic might lead.

I’m sorry but your logic ifs flawed. It’s as flawed as lynnVs’ IMO.

A logical person would hold a moral truth over a political ‘cause’.

IMO YOU know your logic fails you - or you wouldn’t be trying to justify.

 

[kimmielittle]

So in other words even if it were true Catholics can not vote for Obama’s reelection, which is what many say here, the Church doesn’t come out and speak that “truth” in those clear words just to avoid paying taxes?

Even the private internet forum business known as “Catholic Answers” supposedly does not endorse or oppose any candidate or party.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7224667&postcount=6

Nonsense!

if the Republican party supported abortion like the Democratic party HAS proved they do…The Church Teaching stays the same.

 

[Nimzovik]

Actually, the third alternative was running away with fingers in ears yelling “la la la, I can’t hear you.” It’s what liberals do, when they can’t support their viewpoint.

 

[YADA]

I am in Good Hands thank you…the “wrath” of God was fully embraced by Christ on the cross…we are not under “wrath” but under grace…I would find myself under the “wrath” if I went against the dictates of my formed conscience on the matter of my choice to exercise my right to vote in a free democracy…you may find many Friends who share your view…others do not…

“Religious” threats of “damnation” and God’s “wrath” hold little sway with me…you must vote as your beliefs and church instruct you to vote…I must do the same…no religious institution WILL dictate how I vote as an American citizen…God will lead and instruct…so I follow the Light Within and vote as I feel is right and good to do so.

Publisher - I too am not a one issue voter … I vote on may issues and I have formed my conscience in accordance with the teachings of Christ …

Can I ask how one can form their conscience in light of Christ and not hold abortion to be an absolute evil to be fought in the most strongest manner? How does one align one’s conscience to embrace the taking of the most innocent of human life - the majority of which is focused on minority and poor children - in the name of helping the plight of minorities and poor? How does one’s conscience believe that ‘affordable health care’ is only meaningful if one first survives the abortionist?

I often hear people defend their positions with their “formed conscience” … but they never illustrate the process by which their conscience was formed … what questions they asked and how they answered those questions that led them to their stance … For many people - they confuse their opinion for conscience and have never considered the serious questions that lead to a well formed conscience. Pax Chisti

 

[YADA]

I am in Good Hands thank you…the “wrath” of God was fully embraced by Christ on the cross…we are not under “wrath” but under grace…I would find myself under the “wrath” if I went against the dictates of my formed conscience on the matter of my choice to exercise my right to vote in a free democracy…you may find many Friends who share your view…others do not…

“Religious” threats of “damnation” and God’s “wrath” hold little sway with me…you must vote as your beliefs and church instruct you to vote…I must do the same…no religious institution WILL dictate how I vote as an American citizen…God will lead and instruct…so I follow the Light Within and vote as I feel is right and good to do so.

Publisher - I too am not a one issue voter … I vote on may issues and I have formed my conscience in accordance with the teachings of Christ …

Can I ask how one can form their conscience in light of Christ and not hold abortion to be an absolute evil to be fought in the most strongest manner? How does one align one’s conscience to embrace the taking of the most innocent of human life - the majority of which is focused on minority and poor children - in the name of helping the plight of minorities and poor? How does one’s conscience believe that ‘affordable health care’ is only meaningful if one first survives the abortionist?

I often hear people defend their positions with their “formed conscience” … but they never illustrate the process by which their conscience was formed … what questions they asked and how they answered those questions that led them to their stance … For many people - they confuse their opinion for conscience and have never considered the serious questions that lead to a well formed conscience. Pax Christi

 

[Ridgerunner]

Absent the enabling factor of appropriations for this executive order, the previously-reaffirmed provisions of the Hyde, Church, and Weldon amendments would continue in effect by default. There’s nothing in this executive order OR in the Affordable Care Act that supersedes or negates these previous laws. This sounds to me like a pretty iron-clad way to ensure the continuity of existing legal provisions.

So, my conclusions about the validity and effectiveness of what this executive order aims to achieve have to differ from yours and Ridgemaster’s.

The Hyde Amendment only applies to regular appropriations for programs like Medicaid, and has to be re-attached to appropriations bills each time. The Weldon Amendment has to do with conscientious refusal to participate in things like abortion. It does not prohibit government expenditures for abortion.

But regardless, the real problem with Obamacare is the plenary power it gives over health insurance programs. The Obama “executive order” does nothing to prevent HHS from mandating abortion coverage. In fact, that’s exactly what he ordered Sebelius to do, and that’s what finally awoke the people at USCCB from their torpor. They realized they, and virtually every Catholic organization, were going to be forced to provide chemical abortion coverage for their employees by an HHS mandate requiring insurers to provide that coverage, and with no deductibles, to boot. The government doesn’t have to spend a dime of government money to do things like that. It just forces the purchasers of insurance to pay for it by requiring that insurers provide it whether the insured wants it or not. So, the Stupak Amendment would not have prohibited that, and the “executive
order” certainly doesn’t. Neither the Hyde Amendment nor the Weldon Amendment address that in the least way, either.

Obama and the Democrats really did create a situation in which, in order to prohibit government mandated payment for abortion, Obamacare itself would have to be repealed.

 

[YADA]

I am clear on what the church teaches. I am also clear in my personal conviction that there is not a “pro-life” alternative in any real sense of the word.

However, I do have a question: how is it that the efforts to reverse Roe v Wade get most of the publicity and the united front, yet there is no, united concerted movement or organization to help women considering abortion? You know, a household name that a pregnant woman would immediately think of if she were tempted or pressured to abort? We’ve had 30+ years to give both strategies (legal and supportive), at least equal priority and pregnant women in crisis still have no pregnancy 911? Abortion is still more about political action than Christian charity…that says volumes to the at-risk population.

And how is it that an informed catholic has no idea of what is done to help women in this manner?

There are Crisis Pregnancy Centers in every major city … they pay extra for listings in the phone book under the tital Abortion Alternatives so that they are present when a pregnant woman seeks for an aboriton provider … something the abortion providers have attempted to fight [its not informed consent or equal opportunity they seek but the abortion $$'s - big industry ] … Crisis pregnancy centers will help women pre and post birth of their child … health care assistance, infant care needs - diapers, furniture, parenting classes, rent assistance, food assistance, keep the child or adoption …

Every state has a Right to Life organization [as well as the National one] … .they provide all manner of assistance - they will will help women pre and post birth of their child … health care assistance, infant care needs - diapers, furniture, parenting classes, rent assistance, food assistance, keep the child or adoption … In addition - they provide education … in fact the Oregon Roght to Life has created and maintained a website that has saved many lives … see here:

standupgirl.com/index.php

I imagine that every state has multiple homes for unwed mothers that help women choose life and give them help before and after the birth of their children … My state of Oregon has several that I am aware of … here is just obe organization that operates three such homes …

ccswv.org/fthhistory.html

My question is … After 30 plus years, multiple ‘catholic’ politicians elected with D afetr their name and huge numbers of pro-life democrats - why is the democratic platform pro-abortion, pro-euthanasia, pro-gay marriage … why has your party ignored your positions so completely? …

And I keep hearing that positions held by the republican [in their platform in paricular] and in general are in oposition to our Christian values … but I do not see that …

How is being for business [job creation] equated with being against the worker? Business needs and educated work force … and wanting your business to be profitable does not mean you do not want to pay a fair wage. Employees should want their employer to be profitable - because a business that is profitable will continue to employ them … a bankrupt business will not. Catholic Social teaching supports this - a worker is due a just wage - the business owner is due a just return on his work and his investment in that company

Wanting immigation to be in accordance with the law does not mean you are against immigration. Allowing illegal immigration allows for those same immigrants to be exploited and that exploitation takes on many faces including human trafficing - like sex trades and it helps to keep low wages and unsafe work environments … On the other side of the coin illegal immigration provides avenue for crime perpetrated by the illegals and upon the illegals … and is in harmony with Catholic Social teaching.

No republican, conservative or democrat I know of wants a dirty envirionment. We all have to eat and drink and breath as do our shildren and grandchildren and great grandchilren … however - some of our policies are exporting off shore what we could do here … like not allowing timber to be cut in the US … we import timber from countries that have lesser regulations - which I see as exporting environmental degradation …

So I reject the notion that republicans and conservatives are mean people, who want to destroy the environment and care only about the rich …

I am not rich - never have been - never will be … I want government [at all lvels] to do those things that are proper to their role AND THUS I do not believe that if you want or need to feed or house people in your local community - you can do so better/efficiently by first sending that Dollar to Washington - pass through one or more government agencies - before it returns to your local community - to feed or house the intended recipient … nor can I see how that fact would put me at odds with Catholic Social Teaching …

Suppporting parties and candidates that are pro-Abortion, pro-Euthanasia, pro-Gay Marriage are at odds with Catholic Social Teaching … and abortion is always intrinsically evil - no ifs and or buts … no compromise - always and everywhere a moral evil …

 

[YADA]

You don’t understand, Republicans want to kill babies in the womb by allowing toxins in the environment, and refusing to reduce them.

Can you provide support for this claim? … where has a republican ever stated that they refused to reduce toxins or desired toxins in the environment. Perhps youa re thinking of the clean water standards that Clinton put in place minutes before he left office that Bush had to overturn … this was a political ploy perpetrated by Clinton … who could have done that when he was in office [except it was unnecessary and not economically viable].

I don’t know what the number of miscarriages and stillbirths are compared to medical abortions. I do know they are a lot higher than abortions, esp when including those that are not detected bec the woman just thinks her cycle was a bit late and never got a pregnancy test

. How do you “know” this?

Now most of these miscarriages and still births are probably caused by other factors, but many may have been caused by environmental toxins (many of which have been linked to miscarriages, still births, and birth defects in scientific studies). And this does not include the toxins that cause birth defects and harm people of all ages, especially those already suffering health problems or feeble with age, sending many to early graves.

How about the toxicity caused by Oral Contaceptives? … they cause miscarriages/abortion …

And if we include those killed by the effects of climate change (increased intensity of hurricanes, floods, droughts, wildfires, disease vector spread, etc) then I’m thinking the total environmentally-caused deaths are a lot higher than abortions. If we then look into how long GHGs last in the atmosphere (a portion of CO2 can remain up to 100,000 years), and how our GHG bullets in this current time-frame will go on and on killing for decades, centuries and millennia, then the death tolls will surely much greatly exceed medical abortions.

And do you have numbers of deaths due to “Climate Change”?

 

[YADA]

Umm no not exactly Ishii. I know that’s how you see it though. But as Concerned Apathy has also explained it to you. We are not talking about pedophilia. Nor I would add are we talking about pro slavery or Hitler’s Holocaust upon the Jews.

So name what us us we are talking about ,

the Killing of an innocent baby by ripping it from its mothers womb …

Or more succintly:

Killing a child … that is the topic of discussion

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

And how is it that an informed catholic has no idea of what is done to help women in this manner?

There are Crisis Pregnancy Centers in every major city … they pay extra for listings in the phone book under the tital Abortion Alternatives so that they are present when a pregnant woman seeks for an aboriton provider … something the abortion providers have attempted to fight [its not informed consent or equal opportunity they seek but the abortion $$'s - big industry ] … Crisis pregnancy centers will help women pre and post birth of their child … health care assistance, infant care needs - diapers, furniture, parenting classes, rent assistance, food assistance, keep the child or adoption …

Every state has a Right to Life organization [as well as the National one] … .they provide all manner of assistance - they will will help women pre and post birth of their child … health care assistance, infant care needs - diapers, furniture, parenting classes, rent assistance, food assistance, keep the child or adoption … In addition - they provide education … in fact the Oregon Roght to Life has created and maintained a website that has saved many lives … see here:

standupgirl.com/index.php

I imagine that every state has multiple homes for unwed mothers that help women choose life and give them help before and after the birth of their children … My state of Oregon has several that I am aware of … here is just obe organization that operates three such homes …

ccswv.org/fthhistory.html

My question is … After 30 plus years, multiple ‘catholic’ politicians elected with D afetr their name and huge numbers of pro-life democrats - why is the democratic platform pro-abortion, pro-euthanasia, pro-gay marriage … why has your party ignored your positions so completely? …

And I keep hearing that positions held by the republican [in their platform in paricular] and in general are in oposition to our Christian values … but I do not see that …

How is being for business [job creation] equated with being against the worker? Business needs and educated work force … and wanting your business to be profitable does not mean you do not want to pay a fair wage. Employees should want their employer to be profitable - because a business that is profitable will continue to employ them … a bankrupt business will not. Catholic Social teaching supports this - a worker is due a just wage - the business owner is due a just return on his work and his investment in that company

Wanting immigation to be in accordance with the law does not mean you are against immigration. Allowing illegal immigration allows for those same immigrants to be exploited and that exploitation takes on many faces including human trafficing - like sex trades and it helps to keep low wages and unsafe work environments … On the other side of the coin illegal immigration provides avenue for crime perpetrated by the illegals and upon the illegals … and is in harmony with Catholic Social teaching.

No republican, conservative or democrat I know of wants a dirty envirionment. We all have to eat and drink and breath as do our shildren and grandchildren and great grandchilren … however - some of our policies are exporting off shore what we could do here … like not allowing timber to be cut in the US … we import timber from countries that have lesser regulations - which I see as exporting environmental degradation …

So I reject the notion that republicans and conservatives are mean people, who want to destroy the environment and care only about the rich …

I am not rich - never have been - never will be … I want government [at all lvels] to do those things that are proper to their role AND THUS I do not believe that if you want or need to feed or house people in your local community - you can do so better/efficiently by first sending that Dollar to Washington - pass through one or more government agencies - before it returns to your local community - to feed or house the intended recipient … nor can I see how that fact would put me at odds with Catholic Social Teaching …

Suppporting parties and candidates that are pro-Abortion, pro-Euthanasia, pro-Gay Marriage are at odds with Catholic Social Teaching … and abortion is always intrinsically evil - no ifs and or buts … no compromise - always and everywhere a moral evil …

This is a wonderful post. Thank you.

 

[YADA]

This is a wonderful post. Thank you.

Thanks … You are very kind - especially with its many typos …however - it is from my heart though

 

[Nimzovik]

Pro Obama Democrats just do not get it, especially so since they just do not want to get it methinks.

 

[rlg94086]

Thanks … You are very kind - especially with its many typos …however - it is from my heart though

Typos are always easily overlooked. I’ve posted a similar list of why I support the Republican Party. It’s more than just abortion. Most people wrongly assume that the Democratic Party is closer to Catholic social justice teaching. It’s not true. The Church is very clear about the role of the State versus the “intermediate bodies” - private, non-profits - and subsidiarity.

I can accept some Democratic Party policy at the local and state level, in view of subsidiarity, but from a federal level, the Republican Party is much closer to Church teaching. When you add the stances on intrinsic evils, such as abortion, “gay marriage,” etc. at all levels of government, it is a no-brainer. In our state, Washington, they are about to approve “gay marriage” - two votes away in the legislature, with a pro-“gay marriage” governor. Our priest used his homily to discuss it today (little tie in to the Gospel reading, so I know that is questionable, but it is an urgent issue…and people clapped…ugh…I don’t like clapping after a homily - totally inappropriate. But, I digress…at least he spoke up!)

Oh, and war is a neutral issue, as far as I’m concerned. Obama has once again proved that there is little difference between the two parties when it comes to waging war. (Queue Ron Paul supporters saying that their candidate is the only difference )

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Typos are always easily overlooked. I’ve posted a similar list of why I support the Republican Party. It’s more than just abortion. Most people wrongly assume that the Democratic Party is closer to Catholic social justice teaching. It’s not true. The Church is very clear about the role of the State versus the “intermediate bodies” - private, non-profits - and subsidiarity.

I can accept some Democratic Party policy at the local and state level, in view of subsidiarity, but from a federal level, the Republican Party is much closer to Church teaching. When you add the stances on intrinsic evils, such as abortion, “gay marriage,” etc. at all levels of government, it is a no-brainer. In our state, Washington, they are about to approve “gay marriage” - two votes away in the legislature, with a pro-“gay marriage” governor. Our priest used his homily to discuss it today (little tie in to the Gospel reading, so I know that is questionable, but it is an urgent issue…and people clapped…ugh…I don’t like clapping after a homily - totally inappropriate. But, I digress…at least he spoke up!)

Oh, and war is a neutral issue, as far as I’m concerned. Obama has once again proved that there is little difference between the two parties when it comes to waging war. (Queue Ron Paul supporters saying that their candidate is the only difference )

Ron Paul is the only candidate who is different from the two pro-war parties.

 

[estesbob]

Ron Paul is the only candidate who is different from the two pro-war parties.