Three Positive Signs for Obama's Re-Election Chances

  • Thread starter Thread starter irishpatrick
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Can’t you see how bankrupt (and utterly anti-intellectual) that position is?
NO THEY WILL NOT. My time spent in management has convinced me of one salient fact. Most people have a keen ability to lie to themselves and some people are infinitely capable of lying to themselves. They remain perfectly innocent even in the face of physical proof. So, don’t expect too much sincere and honest self-reflection. It isn’t going to happen.

As evidence I submit the diversity officers of higher education; where discrimination is not discrimination if the party discriminated against is not a protected class or gender. And the beat goes on.😦
 
I firmly believe people who are Democrats often remain Democrats because it is stylish and cool to be on the left–they cannot envision themselves being part of that “ignorant hick party, the GOP.”

As time has gone on, more people have become prolife, not less. The numbers who supported abortion 20 years was much higher than today, which simply shows that when people actually educate themselves about the issue, they find they can no longer be pro-aborts. Of course, today, there is the fairly new (an utterly non-rational) mantra of, “I am personally oppose to abortion, but I feel women should have the right to choose.” Well, what exactly are those women choosing to do, and why exactly are those “personally opposed” people opposed to abortion?

You applaud ration thought, right? Well, then, think about it honestly–but be careful, you might just change your mind about this issue. 🙂

Here is one for you to think this through: “I am personally opposed to legal slavery, but I feel adults should have the right to choose to own people.”
 
NO THEY WILL NOT. My time spent in management has convinced me of one salient fact. Most people have a keen ability to lie to themselves and some people are infinitely capable of lying to themselves. They remain perfectly innocent even in the face of physical proof. So, don’t expect too much sincere and honest self-reflection. It isn’t going to happen.

As evidence I submit the diversity officers of higher education; where discrimination is not discrimination if the party discriminated against is not a protected class or gender. And the beat goes on.😦
I agree–sadly. 😦
 
I agree but the Republican party can no longer call itself conservative. Where does that leave us?
I think the surest way to assess our choices is to differentiate between political ideology and Christian morality. What I seem to see, when I compare the two parties is a mismatch between political philosophies and Christian morality on almost every issue except abortion. So the choice is between being a single issue voter (considering abortion in a vacuum, unrelated to any other issue), weighing all issues as interrelated (which I believe they are, to a large extent) or not voting at all (which would be a dereliction of duty as a citizen and as a Christian).

What I find distinctly dismaying this election cycle is the subliminal and not-so-subliminal stigmatizing of the poor and of black people by Republican candidates. Brand them as lacking the inclination to work, consign their kids to janitorial duty, stereotype them as thieves, accuse them of wanting other people’s money, brand them selfish for wanting access to the same health services as everyone else… turn around and deny you ever said any of that even while you support efforts to decrease the fruit of the sweat of their brows… then present yourself as moral for trying - unsuccessfully, I might add, to legally restrict abortion?! If the societal deviants of today’s conservative candidates’ rhetoric believed half of those talking points, why would they even want to keep bringing more of themselves into the world?

Surely, among ‘values voters’, the Christian virtue of preaching the Gospel by our lives would take precedence over such expressions of ‘conservatism’.
 
I suggest you do a little research on Church teaching on conscience. you seem to beleive in the “primacy of conscience” myth. This is quite common among those trying to rationalize rejecting Church teaching in favor of their politics.
I suggest that the research might be needed on your part. My conscience is clear. I would imagine it takes a fair dose of rationalizing to consider a party that demonizes the poor as having some kind of moral advantage over another. The Republican party may call itself pro-life, but many of its actions contribute to the causes of abortion and none have achieved its stated goal of reversing Roe v Wade. Where’s the advantage in that for the baby yearning to breathe?
 
There was just a revision in 2011. And we are only a wk into 2012.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1103920.htm
It did not go far enough. People are taken the first comment out of context of the total verse.
*
As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single
issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a
single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the
promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.
*
 
Oh ok. I see. So your Oct poll didn’t really show it was unpopular with Democrats as you stated. Only showed more Democrats didn’t think “Obamacare” as you call it would make much of a difference in theirs and their families lives. And actually a percent less thought it would make things worse for them than had the month before.

Doing the math in my head I see 82% think it will either make their lives better or not make much of a difference. And 62% of Independents feel that way. The only group I see thinking it will make their lives worse is Republicans. No surprise there.
I used the word ‘popular,’ the terms used in the poll are ‘favorable’ and 'unfavorable.

I do not know where your getting those numbers from, but they are no accurate. Respondents say they would be worse off 31 percent, rather than better off (23 percent, under Obamacare. The country 36 to 35 percent, seniors 36 to 32 percent, Medicare 32 to 22 percent, and the middle class (37 to 31 percent).

Poll that asked the opinion of about 5 Democrats for every 3 Republicans.

This poll over sampled Democrats. 24% of the respondents where Republicans. 36% were Democrats: kff.org/kaiserpolls/upload/8156-T.pdf

So the hallmark domestic policy is not popular with your own party, Obama should be concerned.
I think I’ll wait a couple of yrs until its implemented.
I wouldn’t count it. One of the following two things are going to happen and I believe they both give advantage to whoever the Republican nominee is.
  1. If Obama’s signature policy is found unconstitutional in the Supreme Court I think it will be very difficult for him to cone back from that.
  2. It is not found unconstitutional, but yet it still remains incredibly unfavorable among the majority of Americans. This will give a huge advantage to the Republican nominee who will promise to repeal it.
I do not think there has been a major reform that has has that level of opposition in the last forty years. From a Catholic perspective to have a bill that furthers abortion, a bill which does not have a conscience clause for Catholic doctors, Catholic nurses and Catholic hospitals but also for orthodox Jews, Latter Day Saints, and Protestants. To have a bill which imposes itself on people is fundamentally against America.
And I’m going to make an assumption you do realize the numbers of Medicare recipients who choose to remain on traditional Medicare and actually kinda like their version of “socialized medicine”. Some of them are even faithful Catholics. I have some of those Catholic Medicare recipients in my own family as a matter of fact who are happy with it.
Medicare is a single payer system, it may well contain elements of ‘socialized medicine,’’ however, Medicare has options and plans, it is not one option. You can elect to cover more prescription drug coverage for example. Many Americans also pay for secondary insurance, so Medicare is not a true single payer system.
 
I think the surest way to assess our choices is to differentiate between political ideology and Christian morality. What I seem to see, when I compare the two parties is a mismatch between political philosophies and Christian morality on almost every issue except abortion. So the choice is between being a single issue voter (considering abortion in a vacuum, unrelated to any other issue), weighing all issues as interrelated (which I believe they are, to a large extent) or not voting at all (which would be a dereliction of duty as a citizen and as a Christian).

What I find distinctly dismaying this election cycle is the subliminal and not-so-subliminal stigmatizing of the poor and of black people by Republican candidates. Brand them as lacking the inclination to work, consign their kids to janitorial duty, stereotype them as thieves, accuse them of wanting other people’s money, brand them selfish for wanting access to the same health services as everyone else… turn around and deny you ever said any of that even while you support efforts to decrease the fruit of the sweat of their brows… then present yourself as moral for trying to legally restrict abortion?! If the societal deviants of today’s conservative candidates’ rhetoric believed half of those talking points, why would they even want to keep bringing more of themselves into the world?

Surely, among ‘values voters’, the Christian virtue of preaching the Gospel by our lives would take precedence over such expressions of ‘conservatism’.
400,000 balck children are killed a year with the Direct support of the democrat party. Does that qualify as stigmitizing them? Is supporting the deaths of 1.2 million childrn a year “preaching the ospel”?

Can you show us any Church document that says political differences on how to best serve the poor gives a Catholic the right to support a pro-abortion canidate?

As usual we are seeing the gross demonization of political opponents in a vain attempt to justify supporting intrinsic evil. All right flow from the right to life. When it is denied all other rights are meaningless:

The first right of the human person is his life. He has other goods and some are more precious, but this one is fundamental - the condition of all the others. Hence it must be protected above all others. It does not belong to society, nor does it belong to public authority in any form to recognize this right for some and not for others: all discrimination is evil, whether it be founded on race, sex, color or religion. It is not recognition by another that constitutes this right. This right is antecedent to its recognition; it demands recognition and it is strictly unjust to refuse it.

SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
 
I firmly believe people who are Democrats often remain Democrats because it is stylish and cool to be on the left–they cannot envision themselves being part of that “ignorant hick party, the GOP.”

As time has gone on, more people have become prolife, not less. The numbers who supported abortion 20 years was much higher than today, which simply shows that when people actually educate themselves about the issue, they find they can no longer be pro-aborts. Of course, today, there is the fairly new (an utterly non-rational) mantra of, “I am personally oppose to abortion, but I feel women should have the right to choose.” Well, what exactly are those women choosing to do, and why exactly are those “personally opposed” people opposed to abortion?

You applaud ration thought, right? Well, then, think about it honestly–but be careful, you might just change your mind about this issue. 🙂

Here is one for you to think this through: “I am personally opposed to legal slavery, but I feel adults should have the right to choose to own people.”
Have more people become pro-life? I am not aware of that; in fact, my impression is the opposite. But I haven’t looked at the statistics lately, so you may be right. However, since when should one base a rational argument, which you appear to be fond of, on numbers? More people today are in favor of gay marriage than ever before, or at least don’t oppose it, and I believe the statistics support this. But so what? I think the Church would say it doesn’t matter how many people believe something if the faith doesn’t support it.

I don’t find your analogy to slavery so convincing. The law says abortion is legal. I agree, however, that you have the right to oppose it since you feel it is an immoral law. I disagree with you, and I have the right to believe the law should remain and oppose your opposition. In the case of slavery, if there were a law that advocated slavery, we both would oppose it because we both feel it is an immoral law. Others might support the law. The law would remain as such until it is overturned, which it was. That’s the way the legal system works. It was the same with prohibition and many other laws. Where we disagree is that you equate abortion with slavery and, I presume, murder, on a moral level, whereas I do not. My position is based on different religious views regarding abortion as equivalent to murder. In Judaism, it is believed that abortion MUST take place when the unborn child threatens the life of the mother, as well as leniencies in cases of incest and rape. The reason is that the unborn child is what is called the “Pursuer,” whose life both depends on the mother and literally threatens the life of the mother. It is believed that G-d has predestined the soul of the unborn child to return to Heaven in such cases and that we are required to assist in terminating the life of the unborn child to save the mother’s life. This is stated in the Oral Law. It is different from what the Catholic Church says. I believe Quakerism has its own religious justification for abortion in certain circumstances as well. Now you might argue, what if a religion condones slavery? Does that mean we should permit slavery and keep the slavery law or enact one? I don’t know of a modern religion that justifies slavery but there may be one. My answer then is the same as it is for the abortion issue. If you believe slavery is immoral, then you must attempt to change the existent law or oppose the enactment of a new one.
 
Nonsense. Prolife people do not banish prochoice people just because they support abortion. Never have and likely never will. I have plenty of pro-aborts in my extended family, I love them all, and do not judge them based on their pro-abort views. They know how I feel, and I know how they feel, so we have a mutual understand to not entering into thos discussions because after many earlier conversations we all learned it is often fruitless to speak about these things with family members (not always fruitless, but frequently).

I cannot, in good conscience, support a politician who supports legal abortion–yet I never condemn them as people, I personally feel bad for them because they just won’t let their minds see the evil they are supporting.
I never suggested that pro- life people should not love or associate with the pro-choice, just that, by extension of the prevalent argument, it should not be a relationship of support, particularly in their public role. I stand by the position that this would be the natural outcome of the particular line of reasoning (not mine) which I see being championed. First ladies are not simply wives like any other, they have considerable clout and can be seen as trendsetters among women. Not to mention that they have the potential to influence government policy.
 
another reason not to vote for obama is who he chose for Health secretary…who is trying to FORCE everyone to cover contraceptives (some of which can cause chemical abortions!), including Catholic institutions!

I do NOT want to go through 4 more years of abortion is the best thing since sliced bread, letting people stay onn welfare forever, having people think the government needs to give them handouts for nothing, etc.

Obama has NOT been good for this countrry. Why haven’t some american companies returned to making goods here in the USA instead of making them in China, where they could possibly become contaminated with lead?
Yes, the former governor of Kansas, --a Catholic—who had been privately admonished by three consecutive bishops for her firm and unyielding pro-abortion stance and her actions in favor of and support of abortion. She may possibly be even more pro-abortion than the president. It was a sad thing to be saddled with such a pro-abortion governor, but I would have been glad to keep her here and subject to the electorate, rather than give her super powers over the Federal bureaucracy which controls every aspect of the health care system for every American, every hospital, every physician. Yet it was precisely her that Obama selected as HHS Secretary.
 
I suggest that the research might be needed on your part. My conscience is clear. I would imagine it takes a fair dose of rationalizing to consider a party that demonizes the poor as having some kind of moral advantage over another. The Republican party may call itself pro-life, but many of its actions contribute to the causes of abortion and none have achieved its stated goal of reversing Roe v Wade. Where’s the advantage in that for the baby yearning to breathe?
So since Republcians allegedly have not done enough to stop those promoting unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand its ok to support those who support unrestricted taxpayer abortion on demand?

The Church does not share your view:

4. Man’s moral conscience is under an obligation to be open to the fullness of truth; he must seek it out and readily accept it when it presents itself to him.
According to the command of Christ the Lord,(5) the truth of the Gospel must be presented to all people, and they have a right to have it presented to them. Its proclamation, in the power of the Spirit, includes full respect for the freedom of each individual and the exclusion of every form of constraint or pressure.(6)
The Holy Spirit guides the Church and the disciples of Jesus Christ “into the full truth” (Jn. 16:13). The Spirit directs the course of the centuries and “renews the face of the earth” (Ps. 104:30). It is He who is present in the maturing of a more respectful awareness of the dignity of the human person.(7) The Holy Spirit is at the root of courage, boldness and heroism: “Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom” (2 Cor. 3:17).
 
Have more people become pro-life? I am not aware of that; in fact, my impression is the opposite. But I haven’t looked at the statistics lately, so you may be right. However, since when should one base a rational argument, which you appear to be fond of, on numbers? More people today are in favor of gay marriage than ever before, or at least don’t oppose it, and I believe the statistics support this. But so what? I think the Church would say it doesn’t matter how many people believe something if the faith doesn’t support.

I don’t find your analogy to slavery so convincing. The law says abortion is legal. I agree, however, that you have the right to oppose it since you feel it is an immoral law. I disagree with you, and I have the right to believe the law should remain and oppose your opposition. In the case of slavery, if there were a law that advocated slavery, we both would oppose it because we both feel it is an immoral law. Others might support the law. The law would remain as such until it is overturned, which it was. That’s the way the legal system works. It was the same with prohibition and many other laws. Where we disagree is that you equate abortion with slavery and, I presume, murder, on a moral level, whereas I do not. This is because there are different religious views regarding abortion as equivalent to murder. In Judaism, it is believed that abortion MUST take place when the unborn child threatens the life of the mother, as well as leniencies in cases of incest and rape. The reason is that the unborn child is what is called the “Pursuer,” whose life both depends on the mother and literally threatens the life of the mother. It is believed that G-d has predestined the soul of the infant to return to Heaven in such cases and that we are required to assist in terminating the life of the unborn child to save the mother’s life. This is stated in the Oral Law. It is different from what the Catholic Church says. I believe Quakerism has its own religious justification for abortion in certain circumstances as well. Now you might argue, what if a religion condones slavery? Does that mean we should permit slavery and keep the slavery law or enact one? I don’t know of a modern religion that justifies slavery but there may be one. My answer then is the same as it is for the abortion issue. If you believe slavery is immoral, then you must attempt to change the existent law or oppose the enactment of a new one.
CNN poll found 62% of Americans want all or most abortions illegal:

i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/09/15/rel15e.pdf

“Do you think abortion should be legal under any circumstances, legal under only certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?” The survey found 25 percent of Americans want all abortions legal while 21 percent want all abortions illegal, and it had a large group of 53 percent of Americans saying abortions should be legal only under certain circumstances.

“Do you think abortion should be legal under any circumstances, legal under only certain circumstances, legal in a few circumstances or illegal in all circumstances? ” CNN found the same 25 percent and 21 percent want either all abortions legal or all illegal. But, breaking down that 53 percent group further, CNN shows just 12 percent want abortions legal in most circumstances while 41 percent want most abortions to be made illegal.

lifenews.com/2011/09/15/cnn-poll-62-want-all-or-most-abortions-made-illegal/

Gallup poll found most ‘‘pro choice’’ Americans want limits on abortion:

“Self-described “pro-choice” and “pro-life” Americans agree about nine major areas of abortion policy, while disagreeing on eight others. Among the areas of consensus, in which a majority of both groups hold the same opinion, especially large percentages are in favor of requiring informed consent for women (86% of pro-choice adults and 87% who are pro-life) and making abortion illegal in the third trimester (79% and 94%).”

Some 86 percent of “pro-choice” Americans favor giving women information about abortion’s risks and alternatives beforehand, 79 percent favor banning abortions in the third-trimester, 63 percent favor banning partial-birth abortions, 60 percent support parental consent for minors, 60 percent back a 24-hour abortion waiting period, and even 52 percent of “pro-choice” Americans want abortions to be made illegal in the second trimester.

The only abortion limits where those who describe themselves as favoring legalized abortion differ with pro-life advocates are allowing women a chance to see ultrasound before an abortion (where 28 percent of “pro-choice” people agree with such a law), banning federal funding for abortion businesses (23 percent agree), and allowing pharmacists and medical workers to opt out of participating in or referring for abortions.

Gallup also found that, by a 24 percent margin, 61-37 percent, Americans take the pro-life view that abortions should either be legal under no circumstances or legal only under a few circumstances. Although Gallup doesn’t specify those “few” circumstances, polling data has consistently shown that, when asked about cases such as rape, incest, or the life of the mother, a majority of Americans want all or almost all abortions made illegal — leaving only life of the mother or rape and incest as the exceptions.

gallup.com/poll/148880/Plenty-Common-Ground-Found-Abortion-Debate.aspx

lifenews.com/2011/08/08/gallup-finds-pro-choice-americans-back-most-abortion-limits/
 
400,000 balck children are killed a year with the Direct support of the democrat party. Does that qualify as stigmitizing them? Is supporting the deaths of 1.2 million childrn a year “preaching the ospel”?
Democrats, sadly enough, do not present themselves as the party of Christian values. The onus is on the ‘values’ party to be true to the principles it proclaims. And no, abortions do not stigmatize the unborn, *everything that happens before the abortion *is what does.
Can you show us any Church document that says political differences on how to best serve the poor gives a Catholic the right to support a pro-abortion canidate?
After you give me the Church document that equates race baiting and degrading/insulting the poor to “political differences on how to best serve the poor”.
As usual we are seeing the gross demonization of political opponents in a vain attempt to justify supporting intrinsic evil. All right flow from the right to life. When it is denied all other rights are meaningless:
Then respect that right: inside the womb and out - and your party will begin to make a little sense. As of now, it doesn’t - to me. All unrepented mortal sin takes us to the same place in the end, regardless of where it lies on the scale of enormity, so the technical legalities of who does worse than who, do not faze me. Christians are supposed to adhere to a higher standard, not just a selective one that suits some politician’s purposes.
The first right of the human person is his life. He has other goods and some are more precious, but this one is fundamental - the condition of all the others. Hence it must be protected above all others. It does not belong to society, nor does it belong to public authority in any form to recognize this right for some and not for others: all discrimination is evil, whether it be founded on race, sex, color or religion. It is not recognition by another that constitutes this right. This right is antecedent to its recognition; it demands recognition and it is strictly unjust to refuse it.
SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
That Rome recognizes the right to life as antecedent to all others, implies that other rights do exist after someone acquires life, does it not? If those consequent rights are violated, then how do the offspring of those violated acquire theirs? In other words, all the unborn have parents therefore, how can one trample on the rights of their parents to exist in dignity without also violating the rights of their children to be born? The unborn do not just magically manifest in a floating womb!
 
I never suggested that pro- life people should not love or associate with the pro-choice, just that, by extension of the prevalent argument, it should not be a relationship of support, particularly in their public role. I stand by the position that this would be the natural outcome of the particular line of reasoning (not mine) which I see being championed. First ladies are not simply wives like any other, they have considerable clout and can be seen as trendsetters among women. Not to mention that they have the potential to influence government policy.
Now you have me confused…?
 
What I find distinctly dismaying this election cycle is the subliminal and not-so-subliminal stigmatizing of the poor and of black people by Republican candidates. Brand them as lacking the inclination to work, consign their kids to janitorial duty, stereotype them as thieves, accuse them of wanting other people’s money, brand them selfish for wanting access to the same health services as everyone else… turn around and deny you ever said any of that even while you support efforts to decrease the fruit of the sweat of their brows… then present yourself as moral for trying to legally restrict abortion?! If the societal deviants of today’s conservative candidates’ rhetoric believed half of those talking points, why would they even want to keep bringing more of themselves into the world?

Surely, among ‘values voters’, the Christian virtue of preaching the Gospel by our lives would take precedence over such expressions of ‘conservatism’.
As a born and raised “cradle Democrat” who once held office in the party, I find myself to the “left” of today’s party in perhaps the most important way. The Democrats had two years in which they could have passed anything they wanted for the benefit of the truly poor, yet they didn’t. Instead, there was only “middle class welfare”. Remember “Cash for Clunkers”? Who buys clunkers? Why, the poor, of course. But they destroyed them in order to give middle and upper class people a tax break and perhaps to aid the UAW. How could they have failed to distribute those cars, most of which were perfectly good, to the people who needed transportation but couldn’t afford it? All they did was make the remaining “clunkers” more expensive.

Obamacare is also middle class welfare. It did nothing at all for the poor. In fact, due to the reordering of “reimbursement”, the emphasis is now on providing medical care to the well, who tend to be those who are better off, not to the sick, and certainly not to those with chronic illnesses. Ask someone who arranges medical care for the disabled. Those with “chronic conditions” are being dumped now. And who’s to thank for that? Well, HHS, that’s who.

Today’s Democrat party is essentially the “Rockefeller Republican Party” of years ago; elitist, disdainful of the truly needy, socially libertarian, mildly eugenecist, servitors to the well-connected super-wealthy.

Are the Repubs any better when it comes to the truly poor? No. Nobody has done a thing for them since Reagan’s “earned income credit”. But improvements to SSI? No. Nothing from the Repubs either.

So, since no one can credibly claim there is any greater concern for the poor in the Dem party than there is in the Repub Party, one has to ask oneself whether there is anything that ought to tip the scale in the favor of either one.

Abortion certainly is one, and would outweigh all others in a moral sense. The Dem party’s wedded devotion to abortion is precisely the reason why I resigned my office in the party some time back. It certainly cost me some friends in high places. Sure did. It’s also the reason why I cannot support any Democrat candidates on my ballot. I do research their records and their statements. Well, I’ll admit, there was one prolife Democrat who ran for sheriff some time ago, and I could support him. That’s it.

And what Repub ever championed homosexuality by officially equating it with heterosexuality in the military? What Repub of national stature supports homosexual “marriage” as the current administration does?

What Repub has told us that our home heat and lighting would cost us dramatically more due to his policies? None. But Obama did, and he’s acting on it. Never mind that the poor also need to keep warm and see after dusk, and wash their clothes and dry them. And never mind that they need gasoline at reasonable rates in order to go find a job or go to work, to the store, or even go to the doctor. No, make them pay more so they’ll be in even worse financial condition. That’s the elitist formulation of this administration.

One could go on and on, but one should never imagine that somehow the Democrat party of today remotely resembles the Democrat party of before. It doesn’t.

(And yes, I know people say “Democratic party” on here. I say “Democrat party” because that’s what I was taught to say by the old party folks in my area, and it is out of respect for them that I still say it.)
 
Now you have me confused…?
Did you read the original post? Someone commented on the pro-choice stances among wives of several conservative presidents and I suggested that going by the reasoning prevalent on this board, those presidents should have separated from their wives. It was only half-serious…
 
Have more people become pro-life? I am not aware of that; in fact, my impression is the opposite. But I haven’t looked at the statistics lately, so you may be right. However, since when should one base a rational argument, which you appear to be fond of, on numbers? More people today are in favor of gay marriage than ever before, or at least don’t oppose it, and I believe the statistics support this. But so what? I think the Church would say it doesn’t matter how many people believe something if the faith doesn’t support it.

I don’t find your analogy to slavery so convincing. The law says abortion is legal. I agree, however, that you have the right to oppose it since you feel it is an immoral law. I disagree with you, and I have the right to believe the law should remain and oppose your opposition. In the case of slavery, if there were a law that advocated slavery, we both would oppose it because we both feel it is an immoral law. Others might support the law. The law would remain as such until it is overturned, which it was. That’s the way the legal system works. It was the same with prohibition and many other laws. Where we disagree is that you equate abortion with slavery and, I presume, murder, on a moral level, whereas I do not. My position is based on different religious views regarding abortion as equivalent to murder. In Judaism, it is believed that abortion MUST take place when the unborn child threatens the life of the mother, as well as leniencies in cases of incest and rape. The reason is that the unborn child is what is called the “Pursuer,” whose life both depends on the mother and literally threatens the life of the mother. It is believed that G-d has predestined the soul of the unborn child to return to Heaven in such cases and that we are required to assist in terminating the life of the unborn child to save the mother’s life. This is stated in the Oral Law. It is different from what the Catholic Church says. I believe Quakerism has its own religious justification for abortion in certain circumstances as well. Now you might argue, what if a religion condones slavery? Does that mean we should permit slavery and keep the slavery law or enact one? I don’t know of a modern religion that justifies slavery but there may be one. My answer then is the same as it is for the abortion issue. If you believe slavery is immoral, then you must attempt to change the existent law or oppose the enactment of a new one.
Yes, the nation is much more prolife today.

The slavery analogy works to highlight the irrational basis many hold for supporting legal abortion. I would assume that you would disagree with: “I am personally oppose to slavery, but think adults should the right to own people.” I assume you would be against that for the simple fact that owning people is immoral. Likewise, killing people is also immoral, which means when people say, “I am personally opposed to abortion, but feel that women should the right to choose,” what is really be said is this:

“I am personally against killing unborn people, but I feel women should the legal right to kill unborn people.”

The proof of this is the fact that so many people claim to be “personally opposed to abortion.” Well, what exactly are they opposing? They are opposed to the legal killing of the unborn, but out of the other side of their irrational mouths, they say some people (women) should be free to legally kill unborn people.
 
Democrats, sadly enough, do not present themselves as the party of Christian values. The onus is on the ‘values’ party to be true to the principles it proclaims. And no, abortions do not stigmatize the unborn, *everything that happens before the abortion *is what does.

After you give me the Church document that equates race baiting and degrading/insulting the poor to “political differences on how to best serve the poor”.

Then respect that right: inside the womb and out - and your party will begin to make a little sense. As of now, it doesn’t - to me. All unrepented mortal sin takes us to the same place in the end, regardless of where it lies on the scale of enormity, so the technical legalities of who does worse than who, do not faze me. Christians are supposed to adhere to a higher standard, not just a selective one that suits some politician’s purposes.

That Rome recognizes the right to life as antecedent to all others, implies that other rights do exist after someone acquires life, does it not? If those consequent rights are violated, then how do the offspring of those violated acquire theirs? In other words, all the unborn have parents therefore, how can one trample on the rights of their parents to exist in dignity without also violating the rights of their children to be born? The unborn do not just magically manifest in a floating womb!
It would be helpful if you could post Church documents to back up your assertions I have,
 
Did you read the original post? Someone commented on the pro-choice stances among wives of several conservative presidents and I suggested that going by the reasoning prevalent on this board, those presidents should have separated from their wives. It was only half-serious…
Sure, I read the post. I am just completely unclear how you reached your half-serious conclusion. No-one is advocating people hate people who are pro-aborts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top