Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

[thewanderer]

I find this topic, and people’s reaction to it, really interesting. I realize that the idea of women submitting has been badly abused, and that people need to avoid such abuse and do everything to prevent such abuse from happening, but its also clear that there are differences between men and women, physical, psycological emotional etc. Because of that I’m really hesitant to throw out the idea that men and women have different roles to play (even if its only an ideal that not every marriage can, or should, imitate). Because of this I think the knee-jerk reaction that many have against the language of submission is really not the best reaction. Instead we should try to work to understand what differences in roles men and women are called to within marriage through better understanding the differences between men and women.

Yes, if a man is abusive in any respect then women should not have to submit to them. Also, if a man tries to use passages from the bible to force his wife to obey him that is also inherently wrong for a marriage. If the wife submits to the husband it must be a 100% free gift on the part of the woman, not something she is forced into. But at the same time don’t most women have a desire to feel safe and protected? whereas men generally desire to protect? Isn’t that an indication that men and women are naturally called to different roles within marriage? I could be wrong about this, I’m still trying to find some more scientific writings on the differences between men and women, but I think itss something that women, or men for that matter, should just throw out because of the abuse that has occured in its name. Instead people should work to figure out how it is to be correctly understood.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

This topic of “submit” has been covered by Bro. JR.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9171891#post9171891

Quite well, I might say! Good stuff.

 

[severus68]

I didn’t intend to make it so personal. I did refer a bit to her comments and to myself and my own experiences. I didn’t put my experiences on her and I clearly said if it’s within the realm of Church teachings it is good. If it’s not, it’s not and that is the truth.

I’m pretty sure that no matter who has given good points or bad, I’m entitled to an opinion. Of course when Serap misunderstood your reply, I didn’t and tried to explain how I read your response, maybe you could give me the same courtesy.

Of course surrendering to God’s will would apply equally to her husband. Did I say otherwise? Did I imply otherwise? I certainly did not mean to. However we will each be accountable individually for how we respond. Her, him, my husband, myself etc. etc. Will our lack of, or our poor response be excusable because of our spouse’s inability to submit or love as Christ loves. I don’t really know.

You know I’ve reread what I wrote three times because I felt bad for making an unkind personal comment and see no where that I did so other than acknowledging with understanding her hurt, anger and resentment that she mentioned in regards to " wives submit". I then went on to explain what I liked about the article posted and gave a comment/suggestion on how if she saw it as submitting to God and His divine plan it might seem more unstandable to her and not cause so much anger etc.

I have learned over the months to really focus on being charitable while still addressing the truths of the Church.

If all we need to do is post links from JP II or another frequent religious poster then discussion is lost.

I did thank you for pointing out what I meant.

When you refer to “your husband”, I assumed you meant that poster’s husband, if you did not, my apologies.

If someone posts, he/she can expect others to disagree. I do disagree with your view. I also note that our Catechism and marriage vows do not include the wife to submit.

 

[severus68]

I find this topic, and people’s reaction to it, really interesting. I realize that the idea of women submitting has been badly abused, and that people need to avoid such abuse and do everything to prevent such abuse from happening, but its also clear that there are differences between men and women, physical, psycological emotional etc. Because of that I’m really hesitant to throw out the idea that men and women have different roles to play (even if its only an ideal that not every marriage can, or should, imitate). Because of this I think the knee-jerk reaction that many have against the language of submission is really not the best reaction. Instead we should try to work to understand what differences in roles men and women are called to within marriage through better understanding the differences between men and women.

Yes, if a man is abusive in any respect then women should not have to submit to them. Also, if a man tries to use passages from the bible to force his wife to obey him that is also inherently wrong for a marriage. If the wife submits to the husband it must be a 100% free gift on the part of the woman, not something she is forced into. But at the same time don’t most women have a desire to feel safe and protected? whereas men generally desire to protect? Isn’t that an indication that men and women are naturally called to different roles within marriage? I could be wrong about this, I’m still trying to find some more scientific writings on the differences between men and women, but I think itss something that women, or men for that matter, should just throw out because of the abuse that has occured in its name. Instead people should work to figure out how it is to be correctly understood.

The issue of abuse aside, those passages could also be read as meaning mutual submission, which is how JPII saw it.

Some women want a husband to make them feel safe and protected, nothing wrong with that. I would think all people want to feel safe. Every person should have the marriage he/she wants. If a Christian woman is told God tells her to submit, then she is put in a lesser position in the marriage. It does not matter that women are fine or want this. It is not doctrine.

 

[thewanderer]

The issue of abuse aside, those passages could also be read as meaning mutual submission, which is how JPII saw it.

Some women want a husband to make them feel safe and protected, nothing wrong with that. I would think all people want to feel safe. Every person should have the marriage he/she wants. If a Christian woman is told God tells her to submit, then she is put in a lesser position in the marriage. It does not matter that women are fine or want this. It is not doctrine.

I’m not trying to claim that it is doctrine that a woman has to leave all the final decisions up to the husband. What I am trying to point out is that there are real differences between men and women. This leads me to believe that it is only natural that they should have different roles. Since the passage about women being submissive and men being as Christ gives a different role for men and women it makes me wonder if there is a way to understand this difference based on the real differences between men and women as shown by science. As in, maybe ultimately the meaning of this passage is not that women have to leave the final say up to their husband, but rather it is pointing to the real differences in the roles that men and women should take up. I unfortunately don’t know exactly what those roles are, as I don’t know enough about what the real differences between men and women are.
I guess ultimately I’m trying to say two things.

1. If a woman wants to voluntarily submit to her husband as an act of love for him people shouldn’t badmouth the way their marriage works
2. Maybe instead of throwing out the ‘submissive’ passage peopple should try to understand it in light of the real differences between men and women, or at least recognize that there might still be some truth applicable to todays society in that passage relating to the roles of the different genders in marriage, even if the idea of a woman always letting her husband have the last say doesn’t fly.

 

[severus68]

I’m not trying to claim that it is doctrine that a woman has to leave all the final decisions up to the husband. What I am trying to point out is that there are real differences between men and women. This leads me to believe that it is only natural that they should have different roles. Since the passage about women being submissive and men being as Christ gives a different role for men and women it makes me wonder if there is a way to understand this difference based on the real differences between men and women as shown by science. As in, maybe ultimately the meaning of this passage is not that women have to leave the final say up to their husband, but rather it is pointing to the real differences in the roles that men and women should take up. I unfortunately don’t know exactly what those roles are, as I don’t know enough about what the real differences between men and women are.
I guess ultimately I’m trying to say two things.

1. If a woman wants to voluntarily submit to her husband as an act of love for him people shouldn’t badmouth the way their marriage works
2. Maybe instead of throwing out the ‘submissive’ passage peopple should try to understand it in light of the real differences between men and women, or at least recognize that there might still be some truth applicable to todays society in that passage relating to the roles of the different genders in marriage, even if the idea of a woman always letting her husband have the last say doesn’t fly.

Did not mean that you said it was doctrine.

No one is bad mouthing women who want to submit.

Yes, biology and God gives women the ability to give birth and nurse. That does not mean women cannot think, cannot take care of their own spirituality. Different biology does not mean limiting what women can do and requiring one sex to be submit to the other.

A question. What about women who do not marry? Who protects them, who thinks for them. Some have taken the position that all women are subordinate to men.

 

[buffalo]

“WIVES, BE SUBJECT TO YOUR HUSBANDS”:
THE AUTHORITY OF THE HUSBAND ACCORDING TO THE MAGISTERIUM

INTRODUCTION

The words, “Wives, be subject to your husbands,” jar many modern ears. Even though this exhortation comes from an inspired text in Sacred Scripture (Ephesians 5:22), many people–including practicing Catholics–are troubled by what appears to be a relic of Marriage customs “rightly” abandoned by contemporary culture. Those who resist any notion of hierarchy or patriarchy in the social order vigorously reject St. Paul’s concept of Marriage as an attack on the dignity of women. Even those Christians not hostile to Paul’s teaching may believe that given the state of modern society, there is little to be gained by investigating–let alone applying–Paul’s prescriptions concerning the relationship of the spouses. However, one Catholic scholar, Stephen Clark, suggests that the controversy or unease over the family order described in Ephesians 5:21-33 is a relatively recent phenomenon. Regarding the question of a “head of the family” he writes, “Few areas in early Christian teaching are as uniform and fewer still were held with the same consistency as long as this one, since the first Christian voices advocating a different approach were raised only in about the nineteenth century.” Clark continues, “There are few instances where it is clearer that a change in the approach of Christians is an abandonment of Christian tradition, and not only of tradition, but of every source of authoritative teaching that can lay claim on a Christian.”

more…

 

[thewanderer]

Did not mean that you said it was doctrine.

No one is bad mouthing women who want to submit.

Yes, biology and God gives women the ability to give birth and nurse. That does not mean women cannot think, cannot take care of their own spirituality. Different biology does not mean limiting what women can do and requiring one sex to be submit to the other.

A question. What about women who do not marry? Who protects them, who thinks for them. Some have taken the position that all women are subordinate to men.

I didn’t mean to say that anyone on this thread was badmouthing women who want to submit, but some people do.

When I am talking about the differences between men and women I mean more than just physical differences, they are also different psychologically and emotionally.

Also, I am in no way trying to claim that women are subordinate to men. Or that single women can’t survive without a husband since they have no-one to protect them. I’m just suggesting that there are generally speaking different roles for men and women based off of real, scientifically provable differences between them.

I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but your response to my post is exactly the kind of response that really fascinates me about all of this. I in no way meant to imply that women are lesser than men, or cannot survive without them, or must rely upon their every word and decision. If you would not in my original post I mentioned that I think a real submission/christ relationship would look almost identical to one good relationship between those who consider themselves equal partners. I am not advocating some extreme subjugation or discrimination of women. I think women have a very important role to play in the intellectual life of a society because they bring a different viewpoint to the table. I personally am a woman who loves to have a good intellectual/theological/philosphical discussion. So I am not, in any way shape or form pro the discrimination of women. And yet you seem to vehemently disagree with me simply because I spoke about there possibly being some truth to be gotten from this passage, namely that men and women have different roles to play in marriage genearlly speaking, because of their gender. Thats kind of why I brought it up, yes, I realize there are sstill people today who misread and abuse that passage, but do we really have to completely reject any attempt to find out what truth we can from it?

 

[thewanderer]

“WIVES, BE SUBJECT TO YOUR HUSBANDS”:
THE AUTHORITY OF THE HUSBAND ACCORDING TO THE MAGISTERIUM

INTRODUCTION

The words, “Wives, be subject to your husbands,” jar many modern ears. Even though this exhortation comes from an inspired text in Sacred Scripture (Ephesians 5:22), many people–including practicing Catholics–are troubled by what appears to be a relic of Marriage customs “rightly” abandoned by contemporary culture. Those who resist any notion of hierarchy or patriarchy in the social order vigorously reject St. Paul’s concept of Marriage as an attack on the dignity of women. Even those Christians not hostile to Paul’s teaching may believe that given the state of modern society, there is little to be gained by investigating–let alone applying–Paul’s prescriptions concerning the relationship of the spouses. However, one Catholic scholar, Stephen Clark, suggests that the controversy or unease over the family order described in Ephesians 5:21-33 is a relatively recent phenomenon. Regarding the question of a “head of the family” he writes, “Few areas in early Christian teaching are as uniform and fewer still were held with the same consistency as long as this one, since the first Christian voices advocating a different approach were raised only in about the nineteenth century.” Clark continues, “There are few instances where it is clearer that a change in the approach of Christians is an abandonment of Christian tradition, and not only of tradition, but of every source of authoritative teaching that can lay claim on a Christian.”

more…

While there are many who reject it and any possible interpretation of it, there are others who reject the abuse that has followed from many peoples interpretation of it. Read JPII’s writings about marriage and you will see a much healthier understanding of marriage than one where a husband can force their wife to follow their every whim, which is an abuse that sprang out of a misinterpretation of that scripture passage.

 

[sallysinglemom]

Ladies, if your husband is not worthy of your submission, why did you promise it to him? If he’s not worth every ounce of you why did you become one with him? In our culture you have the choice.

My humble opinion

 

[tarboy]

Ladies, if your husband is not worthy of your submission, why did you promise it to him? If he’s not worth every ounce of you why did you become one with him? In our culture you have the choice.

My humble opinion

I don’t think it’s that simple. We’re all human so some days or weeks, we will not appear so worthy

 

[thewanderer]

I don’t think it’s that simple. We’re all human so some days or weeks, we will not appear so worthy

Also, the promise to obey one’s husband is no longer included in the marriage vows… so not every wife actually makes that promise.

 

[Cat]

I know I make plenty of spelling and grammar articles here on CAF.

But this one just cracks me up!

Principal–remember the helpful phrase that you learned back when you were wee? “Your principal is your PAL!” That phrase got me through some spelling tests!

I keep expecting that Principal #1 will be Mr. ____ from my elementary school, Principal #2 will be Mr. _____ from my middle school, and Principal #3 will be Mr. _____ from my high school! And all three of them will call me into their office and say, “SUBMIT TO YOUR HUSBAND or you’ll have to stay after school and write the word 'submit” 100 times on the chalkboard!"

Of course, most schools probably don’t have chalkboards anymore, right?

Sorry–it just tickles my funnybone!

 

[dixieagle]

I know I make plenty of spelling and grammar articles here on CAF.

But this one just cracks me up!

Principal–remember the helpful phrase that you learned back when you were wee? “Your principal is your PAL!” That phrase got me through some spelling tests!

I keep expecting that Principal #1 will be Mr. ____ from my elementary school, Principal #2 will be Mr. _____ from my middle school, and Principal #3 will be Mr. _____ from my high school! And all three of them will call me into their office and say, “SUBMIT TO YOUR HUSBAND or you’ll have to stay after school and write the word 'submit” 100 times on the chalkboard!"

Of course, most schools probably don’t have chalkboards anymore, right?

Sorry–it just tickles my funnybone!

 

[severus68]

I didn’t mean to say that anyone on this thread was badmouthing women who want to submit, but some people do.

When I am talking about the differences between men and women I mean more than just physical differences, they are also different psychologically and emotionally.

Also, I am in no way trying to claim that women are subordinate to men. Or that single women can’t survive without a husband since they have no-one to protect them. I’m just suggesting that there are generally speaking different roles for men and women based off of real, scientifically provable differences between them.

I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but your response to my post is exactly the kind of response that really fascinates me about all of this. I in no way meant to imply that women are lesser than men, or cannot survive without them, or must rely upon their every word and decision. If you would not in my original post I mentioned that I think a real submission/christ relationship would look almost identical to one good relationship between those who consider themselves equal partners. I am not advocating some extreme subjugation or discrimination of women. I think women have a very important role to play in the intellectual life of a society because they bring a different viewpoint to the table. I personally am a woman who loves to have a good intellectual/theological/philosphical discussion. So I am not, in any way shape or form pro the discrimination of women. And yet you seem to vehemently disagree with me simply because I spoke about there possibly being some truth to be gotten from this passage, namely that men and women have different roles to play in marriage genearlly speaking, because of their gender. Thats kind of why I brought it up, yes, I realize there are sstill people today who misread and abuse that passage, but do we really have to completely reject any attempt to find out what truth we can from it?

I have read your posts on another thread and I actually respect the fact that you try to understand the views of others.

My apologies if I sound abrupt etc. I do tend to write in short sentences and right now am writing as little as possible as its painful with my shoulder joint acting up.

The problem with saying there are are different roles is that it is too general and wide a statement. What are these different gender roles exactly? How much truth is in it? Does it extend outside marriage?

I also wonder why this is brought up often as if a woman must be told repeatedly to know her place(not referring to you)? Women do this too.

 

[ryecroft]

My big problem with the whole submissive thing -
Basically from all I’ve read, it means that if you’re married and there is a discussion or disagreement and both the wife and the husband have discussed the situation (and I expect they were to have prayed as well, but I wonder how much that happens - but that’s another thread) then regardless of what the wife feels, she’s supposed to do what her husband ‘decides’ - I’m sorry but why is it that the husband is suddenly the one who gets to decide what happens? what gives his opinion / choice more weight than the woman’s because he’s the husband? because he’s male? because he is the ‘provider’? (and in the latter case, what about our families where the wife makes the majority?) why does he suddenly get a larger say in the final decision? To me, this implies that the husband’s opinion/desire/choice has more weight or is more important than the wife’s. How are you supposed to have a discussion and weigh both sides equally if in the end, the husband’s opinion/desire/choice is going to trump the wife’s ? why does his get more weight than her’s?
I love my husband, but he knew when we got married that we were going to go over our vows - and that there was no way “obey” was going to be part of our vows. Our Priest had NO problem with that - he laughed when we discussed it and said something like 'I don’t even know why they try to keep that in there anymore!" I’ve got to agree with him! (and with the vows, why is it that all of them are the same except for the ‘obey’ part - I could understand it a little better if you were both supposed to ‘obey’ each other)
I love my husband more than I ever thought possible- but he is a wise fellow and he knows that he would never get away with saying “we’ve discussed this and I see your side of it BUT since we can’t come to an agreement we’ll go with what I think is best…that’s the way it’s supposed to be…” I can’t imagine any of my girl friends going along with it either -
God Bless
Rye

 

[hsmomforlife]

From your post it doesn’t surprise me that your avitar is of Homer Simpson.

Submission is actually a very powerful thing. Willfully submitting to the authority of another is a sign of trust and respect. I submit to my husband’s authority, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have any say! It simply means that I trust him to do what is best for our family, oftentimes using the information that I provide. I’m not trying to come off as manipulative, because I am NOT. I simply accept that someone has to take the lead role and someone has to be the one behind the scenes. In this instance, I’m behind the scenes…in other’s I’m on the front line.

I try to model the need to submit to authority (God, Police, etc.) to my children, but I make sure that they know submission needs to be morally acceptable…

 

[thewanderer]

I have read your posts on another thread and I actually respect the fact that you try to understand the views of others.

My apologies if I sound abrupt etc. I do tend to write in short sentences and right now am writing as little as possible as its painful with my shoulder joint acting up.

The problem with saying there are are different roles is that it is too general and wide a statement. What are these different gender roles exactly? How much truth is in it? Does it extend outside marriage?

I also wonder why this is brought up often as if a woman must be told repeatedly to know her place(not referring to you)? Women do this too.

Thank you! I really appreciate that.

I’m sorry if I misread what you meant, and I hope your shoulder heals quickly!
But it is still true that many women, and even some men, have a violent knee-jerk reaction against anything that brings up the idea of submission.

I think part of the reason it is too general is because there hasn’t been enough scientific study into the differences between men and women, or if there has, there still hasn’t been an application of that into an image of what the roles should be. And even if this ever gets accomplished, there would still be the problem that this will be a generalization, and will not fit every particular couple exactly. I actually started a thread a while back looking for writings on the psychological differences between men and women… I got a few responses, but not as many as I hoped for… I still need to look them up too though… But you do raise some good questions! I would love to know the answers to these too!!

I know, there are people out there that use this passage as a way of keeping women in their place, and that really is an abuse of it. But when something is held as a religious conviction you really are just gonna get a lot of people reacting really strongly.

 

[Rence]

Ladies, if your husband is not worthy of your submission, why did you promise it to him? If he’s not worth every ounce of you why did you become one with him? In our culture you have the choice.

My humble opinion

Because not everyone does promise it to their husband. Many take that part out of the vows and mean NOT to promise these outdated things. In our culture, yes, we have many choices.

 

[thewanderer]

My big problem with the whole submissive thing -
Basically from all I’ve read, it means that if you’re married and there is a discussion or disagreement and both the wife and the husband have discussed the situation (and I expect they were to have prayed as well, but I wonder how much that happens - but that’s another thread) then regardless of what the wife feels, she’s supposed to do what her husband ‘decides’ - I’m sorry but why is it that the husband is suddenly the one who gets to decide what happens? what gives his opinion / choice more weight than the woman’s because he’s the husband? because he’s male? because he is the ‘provider’? (and in the latter case, what about our families where the wife makes the majority?) why does he suddenly get a larger say in the final decision? To me, this implies that the husband’s opinion/desire/choice has more weight or is more important than the wife’s. How are you supposed to have a discussion and weigh both sides equally if in the end, the husband’s opinion/desire/choice is going to trump the wife’s ? why does his get more weight than her’s?
I love my husband, but he knew when we got married that we were going to go over our vows - and that there was no way “obey” was going to be part of our vows. Our Priest had NO problem with that - he laughed when we discussed it and said something like 'I don’t even know why they try to keep that in there anymore!" I’ve got to agree with him! (and with the vows, why is it that all of them are the same except for the ‘obey’ part - I could understand it a little better if you were both supposed to ‘obey’ each other)
I love my husband more than I ever thought possible- but he is a wise fellow and he knows that he would never get away with saying “we’ve discussed this and I see your side of it BUT since we can’t come to an agreement we’ll go with what I think is best…that’s the way it’s supposed to be…” I can’t imagine any of my girl friends going along with it either -
God Bless
Rye

This is exactly why the idea of submission leaves such a bad taste in so many peoples mouths! The wife is never supposed to be beaten into submission!! The whole beauty and strength of submission in a marriage can only come from a completely free submission of one to the other. This is true whether its in an ‘equal partnership’ or ‘submission/Christ’ marriage. Even if a couple gets married with the intention of following the ‘submission/Christ’ model as it is currently understood and the wife at some point decides she doesn’t want to ‘submit’ to her husbands decision, it would be wrong of her husband to force her to submit. If that happens the marriage loses the character of the freely given gift of self, and turns into some sort of authority/power struggle. So its perfectly natural to not want such a situation and to feel that it is wrong. It is! But it also isn’t what the ‘submission/Christ’ model of marriage is supposed to look like.