Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

[severus68]

Submission is okay or

?

But I guess none of it matters anyway, because a man can’t be anything like Christ.

No human being can be like Christ although we can and should aspire to be like Him by folowing His teachings…

 

[severus68]

I am not preaching at you…

I like the double standard that you can’t defend though.

No, just telling others what their marriages should be like. That is not a discussion.

Why should I have to defend anything if this is a discussion?

 

[thewanderer]

What is Love and Respect?

			 	We believe love best motivates a woman and respect most powerfully  motivates a man. Research reveals that during marital conflict a husband  most often reacts when feeling disrespected and a wife reacts when  feeling unloved.  We asked 7,000 people this question: when you are in a  conflict with your spouse or significant other, do you feel unloved or  disrespected?  83% of the men said "disrespected."  72% of the women  said, "unloved."  Though we all need love and respect equally, the felt  need differs during conflict, and this difference is as different as  pink is from blue! [Read more...](http://loveandrespect.com/about-us/)

That’s really interesting! I have always thought of a wife submitting to her husband as being a sign of respect for him, that she trusts his judgement enough that she is willing to let him make the final decision on many things. Of course it’s not the only way for a woman to show respect to her husband, but maybe this helps explain the submit/christ dynamic and why it is represented in the bible this way. Both imply both love and respect, but submission puts more emphasis on respect and loving as Christ on love.

 

[buffalo]

That’s really interesting! I have always thought of a wife submitting to her husband as being a sign of respect for him, that she trusts his judgement enough that she is willing to let him make the final decision on many things. Of course it’s not the only way for a woman to show respect to her husband, but maybe this helps explain the submit/christ dynamic and why it is represented in the bible this way. Both imply both love and respect, but submission puts more emphasis on respect and loving as Christ on love.

Emerson develops this quite well in his book.

http://iwokeupyesterday.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/crazy-cycle.jpg?w=645

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[28562]

No, just telling others what their marriages should be like. That is not a discussion.

Why should I have to defend anything if this is a discussion?

Where did I tell others what their marriages should be like?

 

[Emmelia]

Emerson develops this quite well in his book.

http://iwokeupyesterday.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/crazy-cycle.jpg?w=645

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SNNGcrUs1EU/TdKaeEXV1SI/AAAAAAAAAKg/I1OvBUG2mmw/s1600/L%26R-EC-Small.JPG

I have to admit that I marvel at the high theoretical sophistication of this diagram!
Seriously, why do you need books written by a protestant to learn how catholics should improve their marriages? Don’t we have enough Church documents? Ops… Church documents do not say that a wife should submit to her husband… or that he gets the final decision on things… Please, let’s quote (Roman) Catholic Doctrine, instead of gathering a mix of cultural assumptions, old fashion sexism and fundamentalist Christians’ theories!
Finally, I have no idea which marriage vows people are talking about in this thread. Are there Catholic marriage vows out there that state that a wife must obey her husband? Where? In which countries? From which centuries? I have really never heard of this.

 

[thewanderer]

I have to admit that I marvel at the high theoretical sophistication of this diagram!
Seriously, why do you need books written by a protestant to learn how catholics should improve their marriages? Don’t we have enough Church documents? Ops… Church documents do not say that a wife should submit to her husband… or that he gets the final decision on things… Please, let’s quote (Roman) Catholic Doctrine, instead of gathering a mix of cultural assumptions, old fashion sexism and fundamentalist Christians’ theories!
Finally, I have no idea which marriage vows people are talking about in this thread. Are there Catholic marriage vows out there that state that a wife must obey her husband? Where? In which countries? From which centuries? I have really never heard of this.

I’m just gonna throw this out there, but I didn’t see that diagram as demanding that women obey their husbands every whim. Obviously both husband and wife care about. Being both respected and loved. But if the survey is accurate it implies that men tend to feel a lack of respect more and women a lack of love. Which is what the picture showed.

Saying that a husband tends to feel a lack of respect more and he wife a lack of love does not mean that a wife must always do whatever her husband tells her to do. It’s saying that for a marriage to work women need to be extra careful to ensure that their men feel respected whereas men need to be extra careful to ensure that there women feel loved. One way for a woman to dothis is by freely deciding to leave some of the family decisions up to her husband as a sign of respect for him and his jugement. It is not the only way, but it is a way.

I must say that from my own experience (with both myself and friends) at least the first half of the survey, that most women feel the lack of love more than the lack of respect seems really true. I can’t speak as well as to the second half, but I would believe it.

 

[etomaria]

It strikes me as maybe some of the women in this thread have come in with quite a chip on their shoulders… There’s nothing wrong with your husband filling the role of head of household! As a matter of fact, there’s a lot right in it! It doesn’t matter who repeats it, be it a Protestant author via simplistic diagrams or your priest in confession as a recommendation to help you, or Saint Paul in Colossians 3! (That just happened to be one of my readings today! Ha!), the message is from God and, as such, inherently worthwhile and relevant to our lives today. As far as vows go, they’re not a short version of ALL that God and the Church have to say about marriage, they’re just symbolic. I wouldn’t use them as a yardstick for how to live your marriage, personally. As a weird note, though, my vows (first, solely civil, in California of all places!) included obeying my husband. And this was only four years ago!

-Maria :]

*edited to clarify that I don’t think vows are PURELY symbolic, as it might sound, I think we are indeed promising what’s contained in them, I just meant they’re like a short, not all-inclusive summary of what we’re committing

 

[etomaria]

It strikes of as maybe some of the women in this thread have come in with quite a chip on their shoulders… There’s nothing wrong with your husband filling the role of head of household! As a matter of fact, there’s a lot right in it! It doesn’t matter who repeats it, be it a Protestant author via simplistic diagrams or your priest in confession as a recommendation to help you, or Saint Paul in Colossians 3!0(That just happened to be one of my readings today! Ha!), the message is from God and, as such, inherently worthwhile and relevant to our lives today. As far as vows go, they’re not a short version of ALL that God and the Church have to say about marriage, they’re just symbolic. I wouldn’t use them as a yardstick for how to live your marriage, personally. As a weird note, though, my vows (first, solely civil, in California of all places!) included obeying my husband. And this was only four years ago!

-Maria :]

 

[LucyLight]

People think that the church teaches that wives are to submit to their husbands. The church doesn’t teach that! Thank God the Church has more than St. Paul to go on. People can spew bible verses all day long to make it so but that’s not the Catholic approach. If you want your husband to be your boss, fine. However, it is offensive to many women to suggest that this is the way that it should be. It is always going to create controversy . However, if women who prefer this sort of marriage stated that this was simply their prefrence it wouldn’t get so heated.

 

[Emmelia]

It strikes of as maybe some of the women in this thread have come in with quite a chip on their shoulders… There’s nothing wrong with your husband filling the role of head of household! As a matter of fact, there’s a lot right in it! It doesn’t matter who repeats it, be it a Protestant author via simplistic diagrams or your priest in confession as a recommendation to help you, or Saint Paul in Colossians 3!0(That just happened to be one of my readings today! Ha!), the message is from God and, as such, inherently worthwhile and relevant to our lives today. As far as vows go, they’re not a short version of ALL that God and the Church have to say about marriage, they’re just symbolic. I wouldn’t use them as a yardstick for how to live your marriage, personally. As a weird note, though, my vows (first, solely civil, in California of all places!) included obeying my husband. And this was only four years ago!

-Maria :]

Dear Maria, I am not saying that there is something wrong with a husband (or a wife) being the head of the household. I am just saying that it is not Catholic doctrine and it should not be presented as such. According to Catholic teaching on marriage, both spouses are equal, they have the same obligations and they are called to love and respect one another. I do not know which civil marriage vows you used. I got married in the Catholic Church and used one of the forms from the Roman Missal. There was no mention of obedience to my husband. I am not using this as a yardstick, but simply making a statement. As far as St. Paul’s words are concerned, Catholics do not believe in sola Scriptura. We rely on the Magisterium for its interpretation, so the fact the Magisterium did not elaborate on this passage from St. Paul in the same way some people in this thread do is relevant. The Catholic Church does not approve Biblical literalism. St. Paul also accepts slavery, but I hope that if you - or other people in this thread - ever encountered a slave, did not tell him/her to just go back to his master!
All I am trying to say is that Catholics have to follow Catholic teaching but have to obligation to believe a Protestant author on marriage. If it works for your marriage and others, fine. Just do not present it as God’s plan. In my marriage, we make decisions together. If we disagree, we pray and wait and then talk it out again. If we cannot reach an agreement, we try to compromise, ask for advice, pray some more and then decide together. Sometimes, one of us decides to leave the decision to the other for practical reasons (because one of us just has more knowledge or experience on a given issue), certainly not because one is male and the other female!

 

[fpt]

In all honesty, I think that it is very necessary to study this topic with a great prudence via the natural law, the canonical law, the divine law, the realistic and objective philosophy and the true catholic theology. And in struggling against all the heresies, the ideologies, the practices that were officially banned by the catholic church or that are very probably against the true liberty and the true charity, even if they are not officially banned by the official teaching of catholic church.

We have to update the meaning of this concept without going against the true tradition of it. But, the issue is to understand very well, the elements of the acception of this concept and to define the true tradition.

By definition, the past in not better than the now or the past is not the best time of times of the world.

As catholic, we are in the moral obligation, in the moral duty of discerning. And we have right to discern.

In the past, there were the marital jansenism, the marital puritanism, the marital victorianism, the machism, the sexism, the masculinism (false intellectual views of male on females), the true inequality, the true iniquity… etc. The intellectual view of the woman and thus of the wife, in the past came from Roman law that is not, per se, a good and holy law.

Today as in the past, there are many wrong ideologies. We have to battle against them.

The Marital love means: the Love, the Obligations, the Duties, the Rights , the Charity and the true Liberty.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

The Skill of Submission
The Sweetness of Seduction
The Sanctity of Surrender

A husband is commanded to love and cherish his wife, and that is not and should never be dependent on his emotions or that his wife seems to earn or deserve it, he is commanded. So too is a wife to respect her husband; But, in this day and age of popular opinion courtesy of the entertainment industry or their girlfriends who are so influenced, in place of God’s Word. This is reinforced by several generations of seeking “equality” combined with (actually resulting in) an ever increasing population of single-parent homes where matriarchal authority is seen as a balance in our modern and “enlightened” societies resulting in the inevitable destruction of the family unit and break in handing down the traditions of our Christian/Jewish western culture. The very object of the enemy!
Submitting To Your Husband
The mental defenses go up for many women when they hear the dreaded S-word! Does God’s word sit in judgment of our society or does our society sit in judgment of God’s word? Obviously the act of submission is voluntary, because if forced to do the will of others it is safe to say that the will is oppressed. Tony Evans uses the illustration of a yield sign. When challenged by oncoming traffic, a mistake in judgment will often result in some degree of collision or emergency action. Ephesians 5:22 we see God tells wives to submit to their husbands “as to the Lord.”
You want to hear “I love you.” We want to hear “I respect you.” Usually the opposition stems from the view that husbands are not worthy of respect, locking the marriage into a vicious cycle that few can recover from. 1Peter 3:1-2, where the apostle wrote “In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior,” Two concepts of submission and respect. A woman shows respect by not preaching, criticizing him and his lifestyle, brow-beating and manipulating…simple bullying. How would you like to be treated where you work? A boss that micromanages your every move, soon you would tire of being treated like you do not have a brain and you would want to leave.
Submission does not mean that a woman has to deny who she is, nor, NEVER can anyone be commanded to commit what they know to be a grave sin, EVER!!! But, when all of the facts are on the table and all equal (name removed by moderator)ut is offered, he is charged with the responsibility of the decision. Submission has everything to do with function, not being. It does not signify a wife is inferior to her husband in terms of her worth to God.
The Sweetness of Seduction

A Godly woman’s true adornment cannot be bought at a department store or acquired in a beauty shop. The problem today is that so much of the “beauty” we see today is store-bought. It requires regular trips to the store, stylist and nail salon to maintain. Sadly it is true that so many have to “put on their face” because it simply is not the real person. When a woman can no longer distinguish between herself and her outer adornment for her worth and Identity, she has gone beyond the biblical standard.
What is the content of a Godly Woman’s adornment? “The imperishable quality of gentle and quiet spirit.” 1peter 3:4, does give direction as does the Scripture, “A virtuous woman is more precious than rubies.” It is the inner beauty that will be ever endearing by the way she conducts herself and responds to him through the willing submission and honor that she shows her husband.
A Christian wife may be good looking on the outside, but, who cuts her husband with her words, runs him down to her family and friends and dishonors him in the children’s presence is not beautiful in God’s definition. When her inner adornment of a woman’s spirit is missing or messed up, no amount of jewelry or clothing or anything store-bought enhancement can hide the ugliness. As a man can only lead by example and influence, so too is it for a wife. The inner transformation will never wrinkle or fade. Your spiritual adornment is precious to God and when God sees it, He will do what you cannot do and will work where you cannot reach. He will go to work on your husband.

The Sanctity of Surrender
Jesus’s example on the cross helps us see what it means to surrender to God’s divine plan. He willingly laid down on the cross and stretched out His arms to be nailed down because it was His Father’s will. Many wives feel like they are being crucified in their marriages and when it seems like being appreciated or even noticed for their sacrifice, the fear of surrender becomes very real. It can only be done as in tithing or any act of faith, God can only reward his blessings when we do our part to make it possible. God in His wisdom does not reward our rebellion only to continue in evil. God will create the opportunity to win your husband over and ultimately it is God that is glorified; Not you or your husband. In cases of abuse, nothing says that a spouse has to live with another and professional help should be sought if any family member is in physical and emotional behavior. Often an abused person will turn into an abuser. It is a defense mechanism to protect from being abused.
.

This seems more like a description of a fantasy wife than useful advise.

She will be completely submissive but not a doormat (somehow:shrug, sexy/attractive to her husband but not at all sinful or assertive (more emphasis on submission), and she will surrender her will completely to her God (and possibly her husband).

Three points that can be summarized thusly.
Submit.
Submit.
Submit.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serap
You’re not in my marriage. You have no idea as to what I practice or don’t practice.

I will respectively now unsubscribe from this thread b/c it will become toxic very quickly and I want no part of it.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but I didn’t read this reply to you as being negative. I read it as them saying, that the whole article wasn’t what Christ taught, but what some want to believe or believe He taught.

I too think we have to be careful how we follow other’s thoughts on such things. We are lucky to have the Church as our guide. You should do what is best for your marriage as long as it is in the perimeters of God’s word and teachings through Christ’s Church. If you step outside of that, then you are right, things will be toxic all around, not only in the thread but in your own life even if it seems doing things your own way are easier or better in the moment.

Are you aware of the fact that you are specifically engaging in the type of behavior Serap referred to as toxic?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

It´s possible for a woman to be submissive to her husband if indeed the husband is doing a good job in being the spiritual leader and a good provider in the home.

The bible not only states that the wife should be submissive but that the Husband should also love their wives just like Christ love the Church.

THe key to this sentence is that Christ loved the Church and gave His life for his Church. With that love, came respect. This is the ideal Catholic marriage!

A husband should love and respect his wife in order for the wife to submissive and put all her trust to her husband. That being said, reality is very different, not all men due to our sinful nature, love the Church just like Christ did and not all men give the respect their wives deserves. Because of this, women should not put up with an abusive behavior. WOmen should not tolerate abuse and women has the right to correct the treatment she is receiving from her husband. Good communication is essential to the success of a marriage.

But that is not submissive behavior.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Actually, I was supporting your take on this. I feel that some like to pick what they want to try to impose their view that women should submit. **Some even say that God made women subordinate to men. **
Did not mean to upset you.

That is the traditional (small t) view:shrug:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

“WIVES, BE SUBJECT TO YOUR HUSBANDS”:
THE AUTHORITY OF THE HUSBAND ACCORDING TO THE MAGISTERIUM

INTRODUCTION

The words, “Wives, be subject to your husbands,” jar many modern ears. Even though this exhortation comes from an inspired text in Sacred Scripture (Ephesians 5:22), many people–including practicing Catholics–are troubled by what appears to be a relic of Marriage customs “rightly” abandoned by contemporary culture. Those who resist any notion of hierarchy or patriarchy in the social order vigorously reject St. Paul’s concept of Marriage as an attack on the dignity of women. Even those Christians not hostile to Paul’s teaching may believe that given the state of modern society, there is little to be gained by investigating–let alone applying–Paul’s prescriptions concerning the relationship of the spouses. However, one Catholic scholar, Stephen Clark, suggests that the controversy or unease over the family order described in Ephesians 5:21-33 is a relatively recent phenomenon. Regarding the question of a “head of the family” he writes, “Few areas in early Christian teaching are as uniform and fewer still were held with the same consistency as long as this one, since the first Christian voices advocating a different approach were raised only in about the nineteenth century.” Clark continues, “There are few instances where it is clearer that a change in the approach of Christians is an abandonment of Christian tradition, and not only of tradition, but of every source of authoritative teaching that can lay claim on a Christian.”

more…

A critical mass of people thinking that women are of equal worth with men and deserve equal rights and considerations is a fairly recent phenomenon too.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

My big problem with the whole submissive thing -
Basically from all I’ve read, it means that if you’re married and there is a discussion or disagreement and both the wife and the husband have discussed the situation (and I expect they were to have prayed as well, but I wonder how much that happens - but that’s another thread) then regardless of what the wife feels, she’s supposed to do what her husband ‘decides’ - I’m sorry but why is it that the husband is suddenly the one who gets to decide what happens? what gives his opinion / choice more weight than the woman’s because he’s the husband? because he’s male? because he is the ‘provider’? (and in the latter case, what about our families where the wife makes the majority?) why does he suddenly get a larger say in the final decision? ** To me, this implies that the husband’s opinion/desire/choice has more weight or is more important than the wife’s. How are you supposed to have a discussion and weigh both sides equally if in the end, the husband’s opinion/desire/choice is going to trump the wife’s ? why does his get more weight than her’s? **I love my husband, but he knew when we got married that we were going to go over our vows - and that there was no way “obey” was going to be part of our vows. Our Priest had NO problem with that - he laughed when we discussed it and said something like 'I don’t even know why they try to keep that in there anymore!" I’ve got to agree with him! (and with the vows, why is it that all of them are the same except for the ‘obey’ part - I could understand it a little better if you were both supposed to ‘obey’ each other)
I love my husband more than I ever thought possible- but he is a wise fellow and he knows that he would never get away with saying “we’ve discussed this and I see your side of it BUT since we can’t come to an agreement we’ll go with what I think is best…that’s the way it’s supposed to be…” I can’t imagine any of my girl friends going along with it either -
God Bless
Rye

Of course, if everyone takes it for granted that the husband is The Decider, then why does he need to bother discussing it with his wife at all?
They both already know that the husband will do what he wants in the end, so any discussion would essentially be form without substance (i.e. meaningless).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

From your post it doesn’t surprise me that your avitar is of Homer Simpson.

Submission is actually a very powerful thing. Willfully submitting to the authority of another is a sign of trust and respect. I submit to my husband’s authority, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have any say! It simply means that I trust him to do what is best for our family, oftentimes using the information that I provide. I’m not trying to come off as manipulative, because I am NOT. I simply accept that someone has to take the lead role and someone has to be the one behind the scenes. In this instance, I’m behind the scenes…in other’s I’m on the front line.

I try to model the need to submit to authority (God, Police, etc.) to my children, but I make sure that they know submission needs to be morally acceptable…

But if he (your husband) has all the authority, he doesn’t need to discuss any decision with you.
He can (in theory at least) do whatever he wants regardless of what you think or feel.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

How is it that women get so bent out of shape over one little word when the very next few verses of the same book tell us men that we are required to sacrifice our entire life for you women?

**Sounds like we got the raw end of this deal, **not yall.

Historically speaking…no.

I am a man, and in most times and places (including Christendom) I would automatically have more rights and privileges than virtually any woman (assuming we were of the same social class).

Heck, its only within the last 150 years or so that women (particularly married women) could own property in their own name here in the West.