Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

[severus68]

Well if you look to a self-proclaimed “Angry Atheist” to explain your position on your Catholic Faith…

No one needs to be led by a noose like some are trying to do here. We can think for ourselves and know our Faith. I think Angry Atheist is more charitable than many Christians and he appears rather knowledgeble about Catholicism.

 

[severus68]

Would you mind clearing something up for me?

~8 years ago, my husband abandoned me. I was homeless with a baby in Fairbanks, Alaska, in October. (By the way, this is when winter begins, and it was already -20F.)

What was my “proper sphere ordained by God” at that point and beyond?

I suppose a few on CAF would have expected you to bow your head in prayer, perhaps ask God forgiveness for whatever you did to cause your husband to leave and wait for charity or for your husband to forgive you and return. Unfortunately, this sort of thinking is not unheard of here.

I am sorry for what happened to you and hope you and your child are fine now.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Would you say that this largely describes your worldview when it comes to women?:

Sacred Scripture clearly teaches that God gives men and women different roles in the Church, the family, and society. Men are intended by God to be teachers and leaders in the Church, the family, and society. **Women should not have any kind of teaching role over adult men. Women should not have any kind of leadership role over adult men.

Women should not be political leaders. In politics, a woman should not be President or Vice President or Senator or Representative or Governor or a State legislator. A woman should not have any elected or appointed political position with authority over men, because it is contrary to the teaching of Scripture. A woman should not be Judge in any court of law, because courts have authority over men.

This passage is often rejected by Christians, because they are following the ideas of their culture rather than the ideas of Christ. Women sometimes say that marriage is a “50-50 partnership,” but such is not the teaching of Christ. A woman who seeks power over her husband, who fights with him for control of the family, will ruin her marriage and her family. A wife sins against God if she rejects her husband’s authority over her or if she seeks to have authority over him.

Women should not be Lectors at holy Mass. Women should not read the Scriptures aloud to the faithful at Mass. Women should not distribute holy Communion at Mass. Women should not speak at the time of the homily, not even to describe some worthy work of mercy in which they are involved. It is shameful in God’s eyes for a woman to have any such role of leadership or teaching at holy Mass and at any time in the Sanctuary.

Moreover, women should not be in charge of leading or administering a parish, even one which lacks a pastor. Women should not be on the parish council, for this is a leadership role which assists the pastor, much as the Twelve Apostles assisted Christ. **

Source:
catholicplanet.com/women/roles.html

The link was broken. Is this for real???!?!!

VOMIT.

I checked, it is for real, you just had one error in the link. Here’s the actual link: catholicplanet.com/women/roles.htm

Is this site legitimate?

 

[severus68]

The link was broken. Is this for real???!?!!

VOMIT.

I checked, it is for real, you just had one error in the link. Here’s the actual link: catholicplanet.com/women/roles.htm

Is this site legitimate?

I had the urge to throw up too when I first read this and other articles.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I had the urge to throw up too when I first read this and other articles.

I did some more research. This guy, Ron Conte, is very dangerous to the faith. He is teaching very disturbing and unsupported ideas.

Besides the whole women-are-the-inferior-sex business, here’s a post of his that I dug up off his website:

catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4992

For quite a few years, I’ve been predicting that the first affliction of the tribulation would be World War 3, and that the war would begin with a nuclear attack on New York City. I’ve changed the date on that event a number of times, but now that the tribulation is nearer, the timing of this event is narrowing.

Iran is close to obtaining a nuclear bomb. This past summer, the Director of the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) said that it would be possible for Iran to make a nuclear bomb within 6 to 12 months. It has been 5 months since he made that assertion.

Detailed analysis of Iran’s nuclear ambitions and of the present ‘signs of the times’ (Arab Spring, Occupy Protests, Global Financial Crisis) is in my brief book: Notes on the Apocalypse: 2012 (Kindle format only)

What I found most surprising in researching this book is that Iran’s leaders are devout believers in eschatology – the radical Shia (Muslim) version of eschatology --and these beliefs seem to be motivating their quest for nuclear weapons. They believe that Iran is ordained by God to play a special role in the End Times, by attacking the infidel nations, especially the U.S. and Israel.

My book concludes that Iran will obtain a nuclear bomb sometime in the first half of 2012, and that Iran will almost immediately use that bomb on New York City, without testing it first.

Here’s another:

catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5091

It is possible that my eschatology influenced some person or persons to talk about the Pope dying soon. I’ve been saying for some time now that the next Pope (Peter the Roman) must begin his reign soon.

I could go on, there’s plenty more…

I’m just glad I don’t have to trust those ridiculous ideas on gender inequality.

 

[Portrait]

Would you mind clearing something up for me?

~8 years ago, my husband abandoned me. I was homeless with a baby in Fairbanks, Alaska, in October. (By the way, this is when winter begins, and it was already -20F.)

What was my “proper sphere ordained by God” at that point and beyond?

Dear AthenaC,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

May I first say, dear sister, that I am truly sorry for the predicament in which you found yourself several years ago. You must have been extremely anxious and concerned for the welfare of your child, to say the very least, and I am sure that there was much earnest prayer and pouring out of your heart at the throne of heavenly grace. In times of great need such as that we certainly need a virile faith that will see us through our darkest hour, for nothing less will suffice or sustain us, to be sure.

However, at that point, dear sister, your found yourself in the position of a single women through no deliberate fault of your own, thus you were at liberty to seek employment to support yourself and your child. Presumably, your parish and the faithful could have helped with child care, at least until you again established yourself by securing a position. Did you have supportive parents or friends who could also have helped in this regard? Is there some government provision for child care for women who sadly find themselves in the desperate plight that you were in, I ask since I am not resident in the US and so am not au fait with the system over there?

My remarks were directed at families and not people such as yourself who find themselves in a desperate crisis situation, such as the one you describe, dear sister.

God bless and I do trust that your life and situation has improved now and that you are coping in the struggle to survive.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[severus68]

I did some more research. This guy, Ron Conte, is very dangerous to the faith. He is teaching very disturbing and unsupported ideas.

Besides the whole women-are-the-inferior-sex business, here’s a post of his that I dug up off his website:

catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4992



Here’s another:

catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5091



I could go on, there’s plenty more…

I’m just glad I don’t have to trust those ridiculous ideas on gender inequality.

He has posted on CAF.

 

[heart4home]

No one needs to be led by a noose like some are trying to do here. We can think for ourselves and know our Faith. I think Angry Atheist is more charitable than many Christians and he appears rather knowledgeble about Catholicism.

No, we do not need to be lead by a noose, we have our Church, the Holy Spirit, and God’s word to lead us, which some Catholics greatly resist at times.

AA may be very charitable with answers, but that does not make the answers correct. AA may have a great deal of book knowledge about Catholicism but that does not mean he(she) has an earnest desire to discern the depth, truth, mystery and beauty of our Faith.

I’m not sure what his/her agenda is for being here. I hope and pray that they are looking to learn and are searching for our Lord.

However as a Catholic, I look to the Church and other Catholic’s and their sources, like the priest article from EWTN that I linked and quoted previously in this thread to explain things to me. Personally, I would not choose to let someone who calls them self an Angry Atheist influence my thoughts or formation of conscience in regards to my Faith. An Atheist is somebody who denies or disbelieves in God. If this is truly their belief at this time then they can never truly understand the depths of Faith. They will look at things only from an intellectual point of view which eliminates a part of what Faith includes.

 

[heart4home]

The link was broken. Is this for real???!?!!

VOMIT.

I checked, it is for real, you just had one error in the link. Here’s the actual link: catholicplanet.com/women/roles.htm

Is this site legitimate?

I know nothing about this gentleman. He may very well be dangerous as you say, although I think that may be a bit hysterical.

What I would enjoy reading from you, is exactly where, while reading this particular article (found in the first post of this thread) you vomited.

OK, more seriously, why not break it down and discuss what parts you find so offensive. Take a section and explain where the writer is wrong in their thinking and offer some support for your POV.

Each of us stay in this thread, because obviously we hold beliefs about submission. For me that doesn’t mean not having a back bone, or being a floor rug. I have an opinion, I have a voice.

It just seems we are discussing a lot of generalities of what submission “means” to each of us. Where do you think this author got it wrong?

 

[Portrait]

Would you say that this largely describes your worldview when it comes to women?:

Sacred Scripture clearly teaches that God gives men and women different roles in the Church, the family, and society. Men are intended by God to be teachers and leaders in the Church, the family, and society. Women should not have any kind of teaching role over adult men. Women should not have any kind of leadership role over adult men.

Women should not be political leaders. In politics, a woman should not be President or Vice President or Senator or Representative or Governor or a State legislator. A woman should not have any elected or appointed political position with authority over men, because it is contrary to the teaching of Scripture. A woman should not be Judge in any court of law, because courts have authority over men.

This passage is often rejected by Christians, because they are following the ideas of their culture rather than the ideas of Christ. Women sometimes say that marriage is a “50-50 partnership,” but such is not the teaching of Christ. A woman who seeks power over her husband, who fights with him for control of the family, will ruin her marriage and her family. A wife sins against God if she rejects her husband’s authority over her or if she seeks to have authority over him.

Women should not be Lectors at holy Mass. Women should not read the Scriptures aloud to the faithful at Mass. Women should not distribute holy Communion at Mass. Women should not speak at the time of the homily, not even to describe some worthy work of mercy in which they are involved. It is shameful in God’s eyes for a woman to have any such role of leadership or teaching at holy Mass and at any time in the Sanctuary.

Moreover, women should not be in charge of leading or administering a parish, even one which lacks a pastor. Women should not be on the parish council, for this is a leadership role which assists the pastor, much as the Twelve Apostles assisted Christ.

Source:
catholicplanet.com/women/roles.html

Dear AngryAtheist8,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

In an imperfect world pious disagreement among Catholics is inevitable, as it is even among secularists. The numerous debates on these boards surely bears ample witness to that fact.

It would, my dear brother, be a wonderful thing and a wonderful witness if there could be a consensus among Catholic brethren and they could always agree and dwell peacefully together in unity. Alas, it will, I fear, never happen and that is just a very sad part of the human condition. There is nothing for it, save prayer and charity.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Gidras05]

That Catholicplanet site is clearly not supported by any accreditation from the Church. It’s a website/blog belonging to some Ronald guy, a “Catholic Lay Theologian”. Anyone can call themselves a theologian, but this guy has no nihil obstats or imprimaturs on his topics, and it’s pretty clear that he’s a little off…

He spends a majority of his site declaring pretty well-acknowledged apologists and theologians as “heretical”, despite many of said apologists/theologians having official backing from the Church.

I wouldn’t spend much time considering this man’s opinion.

 

[Portrait]

The link was broken. Is this for real???!?!!

VOMIT.

I checked, it is for real, you just had one error in the link. Here’s the actual link: catholicplanet.com/women/roles.htm

Is this site legitimate?

Dear VeritaLuxMea,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Whilst you may profoundly disagree with Mr. Conte, and you are perfectly entitled to do so, is not that a rather emotive response, my dear friend. He is at liberty as a Catholic layman to express his opinion and does not require official accreditation or approval to do so, no more than you or I do.

Pious disagreement will always exist among Catholic brethren and it is so very easy to dismiss as ‘extremist’ or ‘loony’ any man with whom we just happen to have sharp differences with. One suspects that even dear old St. Paul would be accused of advocating immoderate viewpoints and some would probably say he was even a mysoginist because of his teaching respecting the role of women in Church and society.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[severus68]

No, we do not need to be lead by a noose, we have our Church, the Holy Spirit, and God’s word to lead us, which some Catholics greatly resist at times.

AA may be very charitable with answers, but that does not make the answers correct. AA may have a great deal of book knowledge about Catholicism but that does not mean he(she) has an earnest desire to discern the depth, truth, mystery and beauty of our Faith.

I’m not sure what his/her agenda is for being here. I hope and pray that they are looking to learn and are searching for our Lord.

However as a Catholic, I look to the Church and other Catholic’s and their sources, like the priest article from EWTN that I linked and quoted previously in this thread to explain things to me. Personally, I would not choose to let someone who calls them self an Angry Atheist influence my thoughts or formation of conscience in regards to my Faith. An Atheist is somebody who denies or disbelieves in God. If this is truly their belief at this time then they can never truly understand the depths of Faith. They will look at things only from an intellectual point of view which eliminates a part of what Faith includes.

Firstly, you told someone off for learning about her Faith from an Atheist. So no one can agree on anything with an atheist.

Secondly, just being an atheist/agnostic does not make someone wrong, unethical, immoral just like just being a Catholic does not make someone holy.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I know nothing about this gentleman. He may very well be dangerous as you say, although I think that may be a bit hysterical.

Read some of his quotes about the ‘end times.’ He claims to have guidance on when/how this will happen. That is preposterous.

What I would enjoy reading from you, is exactly where, while reading this particular article (found in the first post of this thread) you vomited.

OK, more seriously, why not break it down and discuss what parts you find so offensive. Take a section and explain where the writer is wrong in their thinking and offer some support for your POV.

I find it bizarre that I have to debunk stuff that’s so silly, but let’s start with:

There are even laws making it illegal to give certain jobs only to men.

I am against employment discrimination. I believe that everyone has the right to earn a living in their profession of choice, provided they are capable of doing so. There is no reason to encourage such discrimination on the basis of one’s sexual parts, and none is offered besides personal interpretation of scripture. Clearly God has made some women capable of doing any job a man can do. So as far as I’m concerned if you’re going to discriminate based on gender (or race, etc.) and thus interfere with their liberty, then you have the burden of proof to show why such action is necessary.

Women have become political leaders, religious leaders, heads of corporations and other organizations, even soldiers and law enforcement officers. Such is the teaching of our culture. But it is not the teaching of Christ.

Not once in my life have I heard the Church condemn any of the things mentioned above. And I have been very exposed to the Church, having a religious and a deacon in the family, attending Catholic school and Catholic university and even having worked for the Church.

Have you heard anything like this, either? If not, then either the Church is doing a darn good job of hiding this information (why?) or Mr. Conte does not believe that the Church is teaching what Christ taught.

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.” (1 Tim 2:11-12)

Let us not confuse the prevalence of personal bigotry at and after the time of Christ with the teachings of Christ himself. Jesus clearly valued women, often more-so than his peers.

Women sometimes say that marriage is a “50-50 partnership,” but such is not the teaching of Christ.

Let’s be realistic about what Mr. Conte is implying, he’s implying that a wife is “less than 50%” of a marriage, I.E., inferior to her husband. The Church does not teach this, but rather, it exalts the role of wife, the same as it exalts the role of husband. Even to whatever extent said roles may differ, a wife is never “less than half” of a marriage.

This is downright morally offensive. It is a powerful insult to the Sacrament of Marriage, which requires a partnership.

It’s also not supported by any of the text quoted.

Check out the USCCB’s website on marriage and see if you can find anything even remotely similar to this stuff. I doubt it!

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Dear VeritaLuxMea,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Whilst you may profoundly disagree with Mr. Conte, and you are perfectly entitled to do so, is not that a rather emotive response, my dear friend. He is at liberty as a Catholic layman to express his opinion and does not require official accreditation or approval to do so, no more than you or I do.

Pious disagreement will always exist among Catholic brethren and it is so very easy to dismiss as ‘extremist’ or ‘loony’ any man with whom we just happen to have sharp differences with. One suspects that even dear old St. Paul would be accused of advocating immoderate viewpoints and some would probably say he was even a mysoginist because of his teaching respecting the role of women in Church and society.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

As much as I may vehemently disagree with you, I have to hand it to you for your persistence in displaying a polite attitude.

 

[heart4home]

Firstly, you told someone off for learning about her Faith from an Atheist. So no one can agree on anything with an atheist.

Secondly, just being an atheist/agnostic does not make someone wrong, unethical, immoral just like just being a Catholic does not make someone holy.

First, I never told anybody off !!! I asked her a question, she responded with “what he said” and I made a comment with a huge smile after it that if she wanted to let a self proclaimed Atheist speak for her Fatih. Go ahead.

Secondly, I never said anything you just said.I explained MY position of WHY I choose to take my advice from Catholics, and WHY I don’t believe that an Atheist can understand the deeper mysteries of Faith. I never said, it made them unethical, immoral and YOU need to stop adding your own interpretation and thoughts as FACT in regards to what others have written.

Thirdly, you seem to be very good at pointing out the uncharitable attitudes of others. I mights suggest you also check out your own.

 

[heart4home]

Read some of his quotes about the ‘end times.’ He claims to have guidance on when/how this will happen. That is preposterous.

I find it bizarre that I have to debunk stuff that’s so silly, but let’s start with:

I am against employment discrimination. I believe that everyone has the right to earn a living in their profession of choice, provided they are capable of doing so. There is no reason to encourage such discrimination on the basis of one’s sexual parts, and none is offered besides personal interpretation of scripture. Clearly God has made some women capable of doing any job a man can do. So as far as I’m concerned if you’re going to discriminate based on gender (or race, etc.) and thus interfere with their liberty, then you have the burden of proof to show why such action is necessary.

Not once in my life have I heard the Church condemn any of the things mentioned above. And I have been very exposed to the Church, having a religious and a deacon in the family, attending Catholic school and Catholic university and even having worked for the Church.

Have you heard anything like this, either? If not, then either the Church is doing a darn good job of hiding this information (why?) or Mr. Conte does not believe that the Church is teaching what Christ taught.

Let us not confuse the prevalence of personal bigotry at and after the time of Christ with the teachings of Christ himself. Jesus clearly valued women, often more-so than his peers.

Let’s be realistic about what Mr. Conte is implying, he’s implying that a wife is “less than 50%” of a marriage, I.E., inferior to her husband. The Church does not teach this, but rather, it exalts the role of wife, the same as it exalts the role of husband. Even to whatever extent said roles may differ, a wife is never “less than half” of a marriage.

This is downright morally offensive. It is a powerful insult to the Sacrament of Marriage, which requires a partnership.

It’s also not supported by any of the text quoted.

Check out the USCCB’s website on marriage and see if you can find anything even remotely similar to this stuff. I doubt it!

OK, I must be totally blind, because I’m not seeing the words you quoted in the “quotes” in the original post on the first page. I’ve read it twice. Where does it say that there are laws making it illegal to give certain jobs to women? Or the next quote. Are you quoting from the first post on the first page of this thread?

 

[Serap]

Well if you look to a self-proclaimed “Angry Atheist” to explain your position on your Catholic Faith…

I see nothing odd about acknowledging a great philisophical look on life (that also fits into Catholic teaching). Angry Atheist is intelligent and deserves respect.

He comes on here and treats everyone with the utmost respect and I admire that. We have different spiritual beliefs, but maintain respect and that’s beautiful. There would be a lot less wars in the world if more of us were like that.

 

[Serap]

Would you say that this largely describes your worldview when it comes to women?:

Yes, I also noticed that when Portrait read Letter to Women by Pope JP II, he also read it to fit into his personal beliefs of women’s roles in society.

We all do that though, don’t we? If we believe that women should be in the home, then we will read things with that paradigm in mind. If we believe that women should be able to have a career and kids, then we will read things with that paradigm in mind.

It’s human nature really. That’s why CAF has this same argument over and over again.

 

[Serap]

Dear thewanderer,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

It is the whole radical femenist ideology that makes women feel that they are unfilled if they are not a part of the workforce. Moreover, this warped thinking has a tendency to speak disparragingly of the role of mother and wife and it does not accept that marriage is the bedrock of society. This is because, dear sister, it has a fanatical and unhealthy obssesion with equality and a woman’s right to self-determination at all costs.

Women who are homemakers, dear sister, are making a tremendous contribution to society, inasmuch as they are providing stable homes for their children where they are always on the scene and available. This is surely something that will yeild beneficial results in the lives of children as they develop and will help them to grow up to be well-adjusted adults, with little or no emotional disturbances. Whilst there are manifold reasons for behavioural problems in young adults, it admits of no doubt that a working mother who is hardly present in the formative years of her children can have a negative impact upon them.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

You’re right, homemakers are contributing a heck of a lot to society and yet why do these women feel so unaccomplished? They are also treated as being so by their husbands (in most cases). Men are part of the problem. They need to shift their own need for superiority onto something more productive.

I have heard so many women complain:

“My husband asked me what I do all day when I wanted to take a break from the kids when he got home from work.”

“My husband treats me like being home with the kids is an easier job than what he does all day.”