TIA and SSPX

[Like]

Oh, I agree with you. They do often go over the top in some of their photo analysis. I already said this. They does not make some of their other analysis less compelling.

I do have a request though: Could you post links to these pictures, so everyone knows what were talking about and so were discussing the same ones?

I think in one area though, I at least see where they have a point. The Holy Father has picked up on a manner of holding his hands together that resembles the form of greeting traditionally used by the Dalai Lama, the other “His Holiness.” This may be merely a coincidence, But the manner in which it is done has not been used as a form of greeting in the West, or by Catholic clerics. It would be interesting to know why he has picked up this practice. If you can cite an area where this practice existed in the Church as form of greeting, and not prayer, I would be interested to forward the info.

This may be one of the photos you mean:
traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A122rcBuddhistRatzinger.htm

If we are looking at the same photo of Pope John Paul II at Gandhi’s tomb, either the bishops standing behind him are very tall, or he is kneeling!
traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A063rcGhandiTomb.htm

traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A067rcMadreTeresaBudha.htm
If this is the photo of Mother Teresa you speak of, than that certainly does look like her in front of a statue of Bhudda kneeling. From what I understand the other was a close up of the same event. Why she was doing this I cannot speculate.

This is what TIA replied to another enquiry on this matter:
*Mr. S.O.,

When you pray together with Buddhists in a Buddhist temple during a Buddhist ceremony in a recollected position under a statue of Buddha, you are for all purposes publicly worshipping Buddha. This is what Mother Teresa did in the mentioned picture.

The picture was disseminated by her religious congregation, therefore there is no risk that it was altered. We are not discussing her intention, but exposing the picture and analyzing her visible, public attitude. Therefore, this is not a matter of defamation, as you accused.

Your affirmation that you are “quite sure that she wasn’t worshipping Buddha” is entirely subjective. You are certainly entitled to have this opinion, but it has no apologetic value. Perhaps you would benefit from reading the reply we made to a similar objection about Mother Teresa praying to Gandhi.*

traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A196rcJesuitShivaLinga.htm
I think they may be reading too much into this photo of the tabernacle. However, if you look closely at the tabernacle, I also noted the symbols of the Sacred OM and another Hindu symbol whose name I cannot recall. So I fear this does not improve the photo any.

I hope this gives some clarity to the matter. Remember, everything with a grain of salt!

I am afraid I do not follow you. Can you share with us why?

Sure! Just read those sites you posted above. (#18) OR anything on their website.

All Horvat preaches are the evils of all our Popes since V II. Yes, I’ve had my own dealings with her.

 

[Cluny]

It would be interesting to know why he has picked up this practice. If you can cite an area where this practice existed in the Church as form of greeting, and not prayer, I would be interested to forward the info.

The Latin Church is not the sum total of the Catholic Church. You didn’t think it was, did you?

Neverless, in not only the Latin Rite, but some Syriac Liturgies, the palms and fingertips are joined in a liturgical gesture. And in various Eastern Liturgies, the Pax is so passed. I know. I’ve seen myself in them.

As far as taking TIA with a grain of salt, I tend to bury them in it. They do nothing but stir up strife.

 

[I_Believe]

The Latin Church is not the sum total of the Catholic Church. You didn’t think it was, did you?

Neverless, in not only the Latin Rite, but some Syriac Liturgies, the palms and fingertips are joined in a liturgical gesture. And in various Eastern Liturgies, the Pax is so passed. I know. I’ve seen myself in them.

As far as taking TIA with a grain of salt, I tend to bury them in it. They do nothing but stir up strife.

Cluny, what are you doing here lately ? At least 75% of your posts here, in a sub fora described as “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”, contain irrelevant tid bits about the Eastern Rite Churches.

You have as much right to post here as me, but what is up with that ? Do you realize you are even doing it ? I mean what if I were to do the same over on Eastern ?

I’ve lurked over there, and I keep seeing this word “latinization”. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling some of you folks don’t like Roman Catholics. Your opening sneer in the quote of your words above is a bit much as well.

 

[I_Believe]

These other TIA articles (like one about a buddhist statue resting atop a tabernacle with pagan scripture resting alonside the bible in St. Peter’s church in Assisi) are quite alarming. Please clarify: is this a serious organization, and are these real pictures?

Hi Silas, welcome to the forum.
TIA displays a sedevacantist attitude. Sedes believe we have not had a valid pope since 1962. They mean well, and dearly love Holy Mother Church, but go over the edge. They have in fact, given up on Rome. To embrace their view, one would have to believe every single Bishop walked away from the Second Vatican Council in apostasy. They can’t seem to shake their never ending attacks of dead popes, God Rest Their Souls.

Assisi ? Yes, it happened. It’s true. Better to judge for yourself the gravity of that fact than get caught up in discussing it here. H.H. JPII is dead. It happened, and there is nothing we can do to change that. Better to pray our Hierarchy embraces Prudence in the future.

You will see other images similar to the ones on TIA if you browse the net. You’ll see Bishops giving high fives to clowns in the Sanctuary. You may come across the photo of a priest using a “super soaker” water gun to spray Holy Water on the flock. There are others just as appalling.

Prayer changes things. And we have a good Pope. Pray for him.

 

[EnchantedEve]

The Latin Church is not the sum total of the Catholic Church. You didn’t think it was, did you?

Neverless, in not only the Latin Rite, but some Syriac Liturgies, the palms and fingertips are joined in a liturgical gesture. And in various Eastern Liturgies, the Pax is so passed. I know. I’ve seen myself in them.

As far as taking TIA with a grain of salt, I tend to bury them in it. They do nothing but stir up strife.

This information, while interesting, does not answer my question. I wanted to know specifically where it is used as a greeting, not a liturgical gesture.

I think to judge TIA in this manner, especially since much of their analysis appears to have been justified, is unsustainable and I do not understand why you would make this kind of conclusion.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Hi Silas, welcome to the forum.
TIA displays a sedevacantist attitude. Sedes believe we have not had a valid pope since 1962. They mean well, and dearly love Holy Mother Church, but go over the edge. They have in fact, given up on Rome. To embrace their view, one would have to believe every single Bishop walked away from the Second Vatican Council in apostasy. They can’t seem to shake their never ending attacks of dead popes, God Rest Their Souls.

Assisi ? Yes, it happened. It’s true. Better to judge for yourself the gravity of that fact than get caught up in discussing it here. H.H. JPII is dead. It happened, and there is nothing we can do to change that. Better to pray our Hierarchy embraces Prudence in the future.

You will see other images similar to the ones on TIA if you browse the net. You’ll see Bishops giving high fives to clowns in the Sanctuary. You may come across the photo of a priest using a “super soaker” water gun to spray Holy Water on the flock. There are others just as appalling.

Prayer changes things. And we have a good Pope. Pray for him.

Sorry, I_Believe, I fear I am going to have do disagree on this one. TIA has numerous articles and a published booklet opposing sedevacantism. Their byline is resistance to post-Vatican II position. I agree that I believe sometimes they are too pessimistic, but given some of the points they bring up can you blame them?

I think if you look at the overall content of their articles and information, you will find there is a positive, pro-active spirit that runs through it. I know it has made a positive impression on my life and for this I am grateful. I am somewhat more of a free spirit then them, however, so I think I take a more laid back view of things then I believe they do.

I know that at first blush it is a little overwhelming, but I think given the opportunity, they will impress you. They kind of reminder me of my 99-year old great-grandmother sometimes. Real crochity, she is, but her life lessons to me have been invaluable and for that I am always grateful.

Be open and look again. We are often suprised where we learn things!

 

[Cluny]

Cluny, what are you doing here lately ? At least 75% of your posts here, in a sub fora described as “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”, contain irrelevant tid bits about the Eastern Rite Churches.

You have as much right to post here as me, but what is up with that ? Do you realize you are even doing it ? I mean what if I were to do the same over on Eastern ?

I’ve lurked over there, and I keep seeing this word “latinization”. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling some of you folks don’t like Roman Catholics. Your opening sneer in the quote of your words above is a bit much as well.

Sorry. I refuse to sit in the back of the bus, and be banished to an Eastern ghetto.

This forum is actually called “Traditional Catholic Spirituality”, not “Roman”–and Eastern Catholics are indeed traditional. Nothing we have to bring to the discussion is irrelevant.

 

[I_Believe]

Cluny, what are you doing here lately ? At least 75% of your posts here, in a sub fora described as “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”, contain irrelevant tid bits about the Eastern Rite Churches.

You have as much right to post here as me, but what is up with that ? Do you realize you are even doing it ? I mean what if I were to do the same over on Eastern ?

I’ve lurked over there, and I keep seeing this word “latinization”. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling some of you folks don’t like Roman Catholics. Your opening sneer in the quote of your words above is a bit much as well.

Sorry. I refuse to sit in the back of the bus, and be banished to an Eastern ghetto.

This forum is actually called “Traditional Catholic Spirituality”, not “Roman”–and Eastern Catholics are indeed traditional. Nothing we have to bring to the discussion is irrelevant.

Let’s get it right :
Title - Traditional Catholicism
Description - Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality

The word “Roman” was left out of your reply. Why ?

“You have as much right to post here as me” Those are my words, and you come back with the “back of the bus” card.

You don’t like Roman Catholics do you Cluny ?

 

[I_Believe]

Sorry, I_Believe, I fear I am going to have do disagree on this one. TIA has numerous articles and a published booklet opposing sedevacantism. Their byline is resistance to post-Vatican II position. I agree that I believe sometimes they are too pessimistic, but given some of the points they bring up can you blame them?

I think if you look at the overall content of their articles and information, you will find there is a positive, pro-active spirit that runs through it. I know it has made a positive impression on my life and for this I am grateful. I am somewhat more of a free spirit then them, however, so I think I take a more laid back view of things then I believe they do.

I know that at first blush it is a little overwhelming, but I think given the opportunity, they will impress you. They kind of reminder me of my 99-year old great-grandmother sometimes. Real crochity, she is, but her life lessons to me have been invaluable and for that I am always grateful.

Be open and look again. We are often suprised where we learn things!

Ok, I’ll take another look. I did say sede attitude though, not label them as sedes.

The pictures of Gorbachev and H.H. JPII placed side by side and then described as JPII smiling with Gorby is a tad deceptive though.

But in fairness, I myself do tend to get a bit near the edge as well.

I find the Assisi issue appalling. And the Koran. But it’s not enough for me to overlook the fact that JPII did grant an indult for the TLM, and he did say he was saddened that some receive CITT. I believe he had the Faith.

I don’t think he should be canonized, but I’m not going to turn sede and give up on Rome if he is lol.

 

[Cluny]

The pictures of Gorbachev and H.H. JPII placed side by side and then described as JPII smiling with Gorby is a tad deceptive though.

Out of curiousity, was was Pope John Paul the Great supposed to do?

Look disgusted?

 

[EnchantedEve]

Ok, I’ll take another look. I did say sede attitude though, not label them as sedes.

The pictures of Gorbachev and H.H. JPII placed side by side and then described as JPII smiling with Gorby is a tad deceptive though.

But in fairness, I myself do tend to get a bit near the edge as well.

I find the Assisi issue appalling. And the Koran. But it’s not enough for me to overlook the fact that JPII did grant an indult for the TLM, and he did say he was saddened that some receive CITT. I believe he had the Faith.

I don’t think he should be canonized, but I’m not going to turn sede and give up on Rome if he is lol.

I agree 100%

 

[EnchantedEve]

Out of curiousity, was was Pope John Paul the Great supposed to do?

Look disgusted?

Couldn’t hurt!

 

[I_Believe]

Out of curiousity, was was Pope John Paul the Great supposed to do?

Look disgusted?

I don’t know, why don’t you ask TIA. They are the ones that placed two images side by side and presented them as a single photo.



Digging awful hard there are we ? Taking my post totally out of context. No matter, it’s right there in black and white for all to see.

Guess you are my new stalker. I’m touched

You tripped up on the “skeleton” post as well. See my reply, and then save your keystrokes bud. I’m tossing you in the ignored user cage with our friend up there in eskimo country. Ta ta.

 

[I_Believe]

Couldn’t hurt!

Aw come on, Gorby was a good commie if there ever was one

 

[I_Believe]

Be open and look again. We are often suprised where we learn things!

I did see one or two books they have that I’d like to read.

CATHOLIC MANUAL OF CIVILITY is one I probably need to read lol.

Sheesh, I left two trad forums because I thought I was becoming a bit hard hearted, but the bunch on here are driving me nuts. I think I need to lighten up.

(but no Cluny, I’m not letting you out on your own recognizance )

 

[EnchantedEve]

I did see one or two books they have that I’d like to read.

CATHOLIC MANUAL OF CIVILITY is one I probably need to read lol.

Sheesh, I left two trad forums because I thought I was becoming a bit hard hearted, but the bunch on here are driving me nuts. I think I need to lighten up.

(but no Cluny, I’m not letting you out on your own recognizance )

The Manual is an excellent book by the way, probably life changing for some.
I personally wrote Dr. Horvat to congratulate her when it was released.

Again, I emphasis that we are all here for the right reasons, and I believe if we have open hearts than Christ permits us to understand one another, even when speaking in diverse tongues.

We should all take a cue from Mr. Costanza on “Seinfeld” and say: “Serenity Now!”

 

[Ghoti]

Sorry, I_Believe, I fear I am going to have do disagree on this one. TIA has numerous articles and a published booklet opposing sedevacantism. Their byline is resistance to post-Vatican II position. I agree that I believe sometimes they are too pessimistic, but given some of the points they bring up can you blame them?

Well, they certainly have disrespect for the popes, since they tend to rarely (ever?) call them by their titles (His Holiness, the Holy Father, etc), and often call them by their surnames rather than their regnal names – I mean, who exactly is “Pope Wojtyla”? Or “Pope Ratzinger”?

Benedict XVI is either the pope, or he isn’t. If he isn’t, call him what you will (like I refer to David “My Mom says I’m pope!” Bawden) – but pee or get off the pot, and admit you’re sedevacantist. If you believe he is the Pope – even if you are a sedeprivationist – he sits in the chair of Peter and holds the Keys to the Kingdom: so call him by his rightful name or title – otherwise you’re not only dissing the pope but the office. He might be a total mamzer, but as long as he’s the legit pope, he’s the Holy Father, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, not “Pope Ratzinger”.

 

[I_Believe]

The Manual is an excellent book by the way, probably life changing for some.
I personally wrote Dr. Horvat to congratulate her when it was released.

Again, I emphasis that we are all here for the right reasons, and I believe if we have open hearts than Christ permits us to understand one another, even when speaking in diverse tongues.

We should all take a cue from Mr. Costanza on “Seinfeld” and say: “Serenity Now!”

Agreed. Funny you mentioned Seinfeld. At work Saturday, they were talking about Seinfeld episodes. I was lost lol. I’ve never seen an episode of Seinfeld. When I told them that, they laughed and couldn’t believe it. What really got them was when I mentioned that I’ve never seen Star Wars. Weird. From my teens onward, I just stopped watching TV and new movies.

Except college basketball. I love that.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Well, they certainly have disrespect for the popes, since they tend to rarely (ever?) call them by their titles (His Holiness, the Holy Father, etc), and often call them by their surnames rather than their regnal names – I mean, who exactly is “Pope Wojtyla”? Or “Pope Ratzinger”?

Benedict XVI is either the pope, or he isn’t. If he isn’t, call him what you will (like I refer to David “My Mom says I’m pope!” Bawden) – but pee or get off the pot, and admit you’re sedevacantist. If you believe he is the Pope – even if you are a sedeprivationist – he sits in the chair of Peter and holds the Keys to the Kingdom: so call him by his rightful name or title – otherwise you’re not only dissing the pope but the office. He might be a total mamzer, but as long as he’s the legit pope, he’s the Holy Father, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, not “Pope Ratzinger”.

I agree with you completely. I also think this practice is distasteful, and oddly does not seem to fit in with the rest of their philosophy. I am not sure why they do this, but you are right, absolutely gives the wrong impression. I refer to the popes as His Holiness or Holy Father (I prefer Holy Father). I would never consider refering to them by any other name. I do not think Pope by itself fully does justice to his position, just as I prefer to say Our Lord over His Holy Name, Jesus. It just seems too casual for such exaltation of position.

As I noted, I do not agree with them on everything. I disagreed with Mr. Guimaraes and Dr. Horvat when they supported the Iraq war, telling them I agreed with the SSPX and Papal view. They respected my position. I felt their position was too vague to overcome the shortcomings of the war process and its end goal, neither of which were Catholic. They seemed intent on a broader, symbolic view of the war as “Christianity vs. islam,” since they felt this was how it was perceived, and being anti-war would favor islam too much. Again, I was not convinced, and we agreed to disagree. It was all very amicable, of course.

Like I said before, everything with a grain of salt. Do your homework and at the very least you will be better informed. No harm in that, is there?

 

[Like]

Well, they certainly have disrespect for the popes, since they tend to rarely (ever?) call them by their titles (His Holiness, the Holy Father, etc), and often call them by their surnames rather than their regnal names – I mean, who exactly is “Pope Wojtyla”? Or “Pope Ratzinger”?

Benedict XVI is either the pope, or he isn’t. If he isn’t, call him what you will (like I refer to David “My Mom says I’m pope!” Bawden) – but pee or get off the pot, and admit you’re sedevacantist. If you believe he is the Pope – even if you are a sedeprivationist – he sits in the chair of Peter and holds the Keys to the Kingdom: so call him by his rightful name or title – otherwise you’re not only dissing the pope but the office. He might be a total mamzer, but as long as he’s the legit pope, he’s the Holy Father, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, not “Pope Ratzinger”.

I’m in 100% agreement with you! With all the great Catholic sites on the net, I really have a hard time understanding why anyone who claims to be a Traditionalist would use TIA as a reliable source for what ever they are promoting.