Tier 1 Level Philosophy: Can you identify Intelligent Design in a system where all physical relationships happen by chance?

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Wozza said:
But your proposal also includes the actions of worms and dogs.

So again. A your proposal means that a worm avoiding a heat source (whatever you want to say about Man’s intelligence or goal directedness and irrespective of what you want to say) proves teleology and therefore God.
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The argument i made is that there is no shadow of a doubt that the human mind is teleological in it’s operation; there is no possible way to rationally affirm that human intelligence is merely the illusion of teleology. Now somebody could twist and turn and conflate my argument all they want, build straw-men and knock them down, but it won’t change the the fact that the mind of a human being is teleological in it’s operation.

It is also my argument that if only physical reality exists, then.the existence of human minds is inconsistent with a world-view that would suggest that all physical operations are fundamentally nothing more than blind unguided processes with no goal in mind. It would be more consistent to suggest that all physical processes are teleological in nature which is the intent of an intelligent creator since that would make better sense of the human mind and the processes in the brain in relation to the rest of the universe.

Now you are free to refute this. But this game of he said this or that, i am no-longer interested in that discussion…
 
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Wozza said:
A your proposal means that a worm avoiding a heat source
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I fail to understand what could possibly be bizarre about the idea of any physical nature exhibiting teleological behavior. The only thing that is bizarre is an insistence for a materialistic explanation when it is clear that such would be demonstrably irrational.

But that is neither here or there. I begin with humans, because you’re a human and that is where i begin my teleological argument.
 
IWantGod said:
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Wozza:
A your proposal means that a worm avoiding a heat source
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I fail to understand what could possibly be bizarre about the idea of any physical nature exhibiting teleological behavior. The only thing that is bizarre is an insistence for a materialistic explanation when it is clear that such would be demonstrably irrational.

But that is neither here or there. I begin with humans, because you’re a human and that is where i begin my teleological argument.
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What classes it as bizarre is that using your argument, worms prove God. In fact, any goal oriented physical process found in nature (flowers turning to the sun?) proves God. As I said, it’s not an argument that I’ve come across before.

Now, do you want to discuss intelligence (as opposed to goal oriented behaviour) as it relates to homo Sapien only? Then I need your definition of it so that we are not talking past each other. Here’s one with which to begin:

‘The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills’.
 
Wozza said:
Now, do you want to discuss intelligence (as opposed to goal oriented behaviour) as it relates to homo Sapien only?
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If you are an engineer, you can look at how 500 muscles, 200 bones, 500 ligaments and 1000 tendons are linked together to create movement. A skeleton is just a load of levers; we should be able to mechanically replicate this same range of movement easily, but we can’t.

Every advance in robotic engineering comes about by teams of engineers using intelligent design. Robots are highly complex now, but still primitive compared to us. Every future improvement will come about by intelligent design.

We can create all kinds of mega engineering, send people into space, but we can’t create the range of movement that exists within our bodies. If the best engineers in the world fail, then random chance and natural selection cannot do this without guidance from above.
 
This is the second time you have posted this. And it still bears no relationship to the point in question.
 
Wozza said:
This is the second time you have posted this. And it still bears no relationship to the point in question.
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You have mentioned flowers pointing towards the sun more than once, and I would suggest that has even less to do with intelligent design.
 
lisaandlena said:
This is just extremely poor and ill-informed reasoning. Mechanical engineers are constrained by the limitations of their materials.
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We have all the materials we need to replicate the movement of a skeleton. What we don’t have is the knowledge to make a robot that has the fluid movement that we have as a species.
lisaandlena said:
Organisms aren’t simply mechanical devices, they’re biological devices, and as such are uniquely suited to manipulation and selection driven by chance.
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Biological devices can exist perfectly well as single cells; they have no need to become the most complex mechanical device that we observe today.
 
Eric_Hyom said:
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Wozza:
This is the second time you have posted this. And it still bears no relationship to the point in question.
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You have mentioned flowers pointing towards the sun more than once, and I would suggest that has even less to do with intelligent design.
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Indeed. It is not meant to be associated with ID whatsoever. It relates to goal oriented processes which were being discussed.
 
lisaandlena said:
A job for which the power of chance far exceeds the power of intelligence. In fact, I would argue that the power of chance is equal in measure to the power of God. For there’s nothing that God can produce that chance can’t.
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Chance cannot produce existence. Chance is contingent upon an already existing reality that has parameters which allow chance to take place.

Putting chance on par with God is ridiculous. Chance isn’t even a being. lol
 
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Wozza said:
predetermined viewpoint that Man has been put here for a purpose. Worms? Nah, not so much.
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We operate on belief, seeing what we expect to see. It’s very hard to see outside the box that encloses the spirit, which can soar to the heavens and precipitate into the depths of chaos. Faith is belief grounded in truth, a personal relationship between oneself and transcendent Being. Faith informs us why we are here as it reveals who we are in relation to He who brings us into existence, here and now as always.

Worms are an expression of living being, existent in themselves as exquisitely organized material being, realizing their nature which is to incorporate external matter into themselves that they may develop, grow, reproduce, and actively do so instinctively perceiving and discerning what promotes these ends, and avoids those that spell their death. Worms, as a system of matter, unified as one being carries out its functions as part of an environmental whole, which permits and also requires their existence.

They are an example of how nature is composed and reflects the triune Godhead.

We ourselves are each of us, an expression of one humanity, all fallen with the original sin that decided who we would be. In Love, in Jesus Christ, we come to be the self we were destined to become, in ourselves and all united in His body, God’s Church.

The purpose of worms as components of creation is to reveal the glory of God in its coming into communion through us in Jesus Christ, with the Trinity that is God.
 
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Aloysium said:
Worms are an expression of living being, existent in themselves as exquisitely organized material being, realizing their nature which is to incorporate external matter into themselves that they may develop, grow, reproduce, and actively do so instinctively perceiving and discerning what promotes these ends, and avoids those that spell their death. Worms, as a system of matter, unified as one being carries out its functions as part of an environmental whole, which permits and also requires their existence.
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I second that.
 
Al, you seriously need an editor. Someone you trust who can read what you write and point you in the right direction as to making arguments. It can’t be me because I don’t read what you write anymore.

My apologies if that comes across as rude but I find that honesty is the best policy.
 
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Sorry, you have me totally lost on that. Are you implying that goal oriented behaviour equates to intelligence? Surely not.

Intelligence would include goal oriented behaviour (I’m going to have a beer), but goal oriented behaviour does not necessarily indicate intelligence (flowers, bacteria, worms).

So if you want to discuss intelligence as it relates to the op, then you need to define what you mean by it. ‘The ability to act in a way that will achieve a goal’ isn’t a valid definition.

‘The ability to aquire and apply knowledge’ is one (and in addition will allow one to to make goal oriented decisions).
 
Wozza said:
Are you implying that goal oriented behaviour equates to intelligence?
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Nope. Not all teleological behavior…

But it’s clear that intelligent activity is goal orientated nonetheless. So to talk about intelligence is to talk about what it’s doing, and what it is doing is teleological in nature.
 
Wozza said:
The ability to act in a way that will achieve a goal
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intelligence allows us to have intelligently directed goals. And it helps us to achieve those goals. So it isn’t invalid to describe intelligent activity as having the ability to act in a way that will achieve a goal.

In a very general sense that is true.
 
Wozza said:
Are you implying that goal oriented behaviour equates to intelligence? Surely not.
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There must be thousands of separate goals needed to make a working skeleton; with 500 muscles, 200 bones, 500 ligaments and 1000 tendons. Then you would need all the sensors to hear, see, touch and a brain to oversee the movement.

I just don’t believe blind random chance and natural selection has the intelligence or the goal setting power to achieve all these separate goals.

Your definition of goal oriented behaviour like going for a beer is too simplistic.
 
IWantGod said:
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Wozza:
Are you implying that goal oriented behaviour equates to intelligence?
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Nope. Not all teleological behavior…

But it’s clear that intelligent activity is goal orientated nonetheless. So to talk about intelligence is to talk about what it’s doing, and what it is doing is teleological in nature.
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Intelligence ALLOWS you to do things. One of those things is to make goals. One of those things is is to allow whatever posseses is to nominate a purpose to activity. One of those things is to direct one’s energy to that purpose. But none of those things in themselves are intelligence. They REQUIRE intelligence.

So what is your definition of intelligence? Bearing in mind that if your restrict it to those abilities noted above you are going to include everything from rodents and birds. I would imagine you would like to restrict it to man. But please…let me know.
 
Wozza said:
Intelligence ALLOWS
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Every intelligent act is goal orientated, whether its thinking about what you are going to write next or trying to work out a mathematical problem, or just going for a beer. You yourself have an intelligence. I don’t understand why this is so difficult for you to understand.
 
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