Tillich's You are Accepted (Universalism)

[ZenFred]

Hello,

I have made several threads on here before expressing my faith in God without doctrinal orthodoxy. I feel it’s always been very difficult to express this position. I just finished a book of sermons by Paul Tillich and he puts it perfectly.

“You are accepted, accepted by that which is greater than you and the name of which you do not know. Do not ask for the name now; perhaps you will find it later. Do not try to do anything now; perhaps later you will do much. Do not seek for anything; do not perform anything; do not intend anything. Simply accept the fact that you are accepted! If that happens to us, we experience grace.”

I would suggest that we can accept God’s grace without doctrinal labels and even in theological error. The pious Muslim or Jew accepts and receives God’s grace fully as a beloved child of God without ever using the name of Jesus in a Christian context. They don’t need to, they are accepted by God. The proof is this is taking to such a person and their faith and the presence of God is clearly reflected in their life.

I have some additional arguments for universalism but I figured this would be a good place to start.

I do have a technical theological question too:
Traditionally Universalism is that all humanity regardless of faith or non-faith or moral character will be saved. No one will go to hell permanently.
What would the view be that all people of good faith in God and moral character across faiths are saved or have equal access to salvation be called? It’s not really a syncretism since I’m not saying if their doctrines are true, only their devotion and divine favor.

Thanks, Fred

 

[jcrichton]

Hello,

I have made several threads on here before expressing my faith in God without doctrinal orthodoxy. I feel it’s always been very difficult to express this position. I just finished a book of sermons by Paul Tillich and he puts it perfectly.

“You are accepted, accepted by that which is greater than you and the name of which you do not know. Do not ask for the name now; perhaps you will find it later. Do not try to do anything now; perhaps later you will do much. Do not seek for anything; do not perform anything; do not intend anything. Simply accept the fact that you are accepted! If that happens to us, we experience grace.”

I would suggest that we can accept God’s grace without doctrinal labels and even in theological error. The pious Muslim or Jew accepts and receives God’s grace fully as a beloved child of God without ever using the name of Jesus in a Christian context. They don’t need to, they are accepted by God. The proof is this is taking to such a person and their faith and the presence of God is clearly reflected in their life.

I have some additional arguments for universalism but I figured this would be a good place to start.

I do have a technical theological question too:
Traditionally Universalism is that all humanity regardless of faith or non-faith or moral character will be saved. No one will go to hell permanently.
What would the view be that all people of good faith in God and moral character across faiths are saved or have equal access to salvation be called? It’s not really a syncretism since I’m not saying if their doctrines are true, only their devotion and divine favor.

Thanks, Fred

Hi, Fred!

What you are seeking is to be alone with God.

Hermits do that.

But hermits practice on their own without seeking to convert or anyone’s acceptance/affirmation.

Universalism is great. It makes the Bible superfluous and false.

Tillich and those of like mind simply ignore Christ and they are content with it.

If your happiness is found in seeking God all on your own and forming a one-to-one with Him… well, if it gets you through your days, who am I to judge.

Reality check?

It is God that Calls man to Abide in Him and with his fellow creatures.

But that’s only my take on Scriptures: the Word of God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[fhansen]

Hello,

I have made several threads on here before expressing my faith in God without doctrinal orthodoxy. I feel it’s always been very difficult to express this position. I just finished a book of sermons by Paul Tillich and he puts it perfectly.

“You are accepted, accepted by that which is greater than you and the name of which you do not know. Do not ask for the name now; perhaps you will find it later. Do not try to do anything now; perhaps later you will do much. Do not seek for anything; do not perform anything; do not intend anything. Simply accept the fact that you are accepted! If that happens to us, we experience grace.”

I would suggest that we can accept God’s grace without doctrinal labels and even in theological error. The pious Muslim or Jew accepts and receives God’s grace fully as a beloved child of God without ever using the name of Jesus in a Christian context. They don’t need to, they are accepted by God. The proof is this is taking to such a person and their faith and the presence of God is clearly reflected in their life.

I have some additional arguments for universalism but I figured this would be a good place to start.

I do have a technical theological question too:
Traditionally Universalism is that all humanity regardless of faith or non-faith or moral character will be saved. No one will go to hell permanently.
What would the view be that all people of good faith in God and moral character across faiths are saved or have equal access to salvation be called? It’s not really a syncretism since I’m not saying if their doctrines are true, only their devotion and divine favor.

Thanks, Fred

I believe that the nature and will of God, who He is-is most clearly and exhaustively revealed by Christ-and who He is. And this is important: who/what are we actually believing in? What is the object of our faith? But having said that, yes, faith pleases God, if that means that we live and act in humility before a greater being who is good and whom rightly asks us to choose and follow the path of goodness as well. This doesn’t necessarily mean that all religions lead to God, only that we’re all called to do the best we can with what we’re given in terms of knowledge and grace.

 

[ZenFred]

Hi, Fred!

What you are seeking is to be alone with God.

Hermits do that.

But hermits practice on their own without seeking to convert or anyone’s acceptance

This is spot on and you’re right. Not a literal hermit of course but I do want to practice alone.
I don’t expect to nor want to convert anyone. Conversions don’t happen by online arguments and I have a view that it doesn’t matter if you agree with or nor. It’s not like I think you’re going to hell if you disagree. Haha.

I like to think my intention is to give theologically orthodox believers a chance to point out flaws in my thinking. That’s helped me before. Or suggest counter arguments or alternative views I haven’t considered. Perhaps I am doing it subconsciously for attention though. At some points int if I keep posting about it I would.

I saw this Tillich quote and felt I wish I had found it earlier back when I posted before since that what I was trying to say. I’ve also come up with some scriptural arguments recently to test out.

But I should strive to be compassionate and not harmful and not self seeking. I’ll take your honest opinion. If you think I’ve gotten to the point that’s it is frivolous and indulgent at this point let me know and I’ll stop. I’m not trying to sacrasticly melodramatic, I have been seriously considering this on my own. If you, in good faith, think I should stop posting for a while I will. I won’t be hurt.

God’s Peace,
Fred

 

[Dorothy]

Fred wrote:

<>

If at the time of judgment the person is living out of a relationship with the Lord, that person will walk away from Him and not want to be with Him. That person will be separated from the Lord. The Lord honors our choices.

The Catechism addresses the part about those who do not know Him, but seek with a sincere heart.

It is wise to look to the Church, and trust the Lord. He is Incarnate Wisdom!

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[ZenFred]

Fred wrote:

<>

If at the time of judgment the person is living out of a relationship with the Lord, that person will walk away from Him and not want to be with Him. That person will be separated from the Lord. The Lord honors our choices.

The Catechism addresses the part about those who do not know Him, but seek with a sincere heart.

It is wise to look to the Church, and trust the Lord. He is Incarnate Wisdom!

Peace,

Dorothy

Yeah, if I say no one ever goes to hell, I’m denying human freedom to some degree.
The idea of purgatory helps here. A person who is not a repentant believer at their death would need to have a change of character to be saved, they would have to come to repentance. Perhaps we all would. Purgatory is a model for how when we are presented with truth of God and truth of ourselves we are humbled and moved to repentance. This process happens in life too and is a key to a genuine spiritual life. Perhaps this is an instant process or perhaps it takes eons.
Can someone really remain in unrepentance though? God is the source of our very being and meaning. In life there is always something we choose over God like wealth or pleasure or pride. But in the final judgement, all things but God disappear. Even our pride vanishes as we see ourselves as a finite creation. How could we confine to choose our No to God’s Yes.

Another objection is that as humans we are never fully free existentially to begin with. Who we are with our thoughts and feelings (which guide our will) doesn’t occur a vacuum. We are the dependentlu arising product of our interior and exterior conditioning. Objective, existential free will of choosing for no reason other than to exercise choice doesn’t exist. If some one rejects God they have a reason for doing so. Are they then eternally punished for being subject to the conditions that created their rejection. It would be more compassionate for God to subject them to purification that altered those conditions; purging them of false views and misguided impulses. Again I think is purging occurs in all of us and is the subject of the spiritual life. Since none of us finish this journey on earth, I have faith it will continue after death.

P.S. Dorthy, your response is why I posted, thank you! You helped me see a potential issue and attempt to modify my thinking and I now have a stronger understanding as a result.

 

[Dorothy]

<<P.S. Dorthy, your response is why I posted, thank you! You helped me see a potential issue and attempt to modify my thinking and I now have a stronger understanding as a result.>>

Then it had to be the Holy Spirit that gives clarity!

I have learned something from my own spiritual journey…God is infinitely perfect and we don’t have to bother our head by details we do not understand. I need to keep trusting Him in all circumstances. It is a battle, and one worth fighting! Then, He will fight the battle for us.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[ZenFred]

Jcrichton,

Your comments about converting others keeps coming back to me. You’ve clearly hit a nerve but that’s okay, it shows I need to do some long, hard reflection.

I keep wondering why I have such a thirst for Truth as much as I can grasp it. It’s pretty obsessive actually. I also find myself drawn so strongly to theology and o devour book after book in my free time.

Naturally, part of me thinks that I should I become a theologian and should write books or blogs or give talks or whatnot. But again and again the answer I get in prayer is No. I keep seeing in my writing, even on here, my thirst for affirmation and not the presence of God. People don’t need theologians or at least they don’t need me telling them how I think I’ve got it figured out.

I do feel called to prayer though. I feel I am only myself and who I want to be when I pray. But why is theology such an obessession? It’s not where I most encounter God, that’s in prayer. To some degree I need some sort of understanding in order to know how to pray prayer is also mostly listening, so I shouldn’t shut my ears to theological truths. I thinks it mostly trying to reconcile the reality I feel in prayer and my understanding in my head. As a fundamentalist Protestant then a Buddhist then a Jew my head and my heart never matched up.

But I’m going to back off the forums once I get things a little more figured out. I’d also rather talk here than in the real world. I think I keep hearing, from God, that I should keep my theology (or as you would say heresy) to myself.

 

[jcrichton]

This is spot on and you’re right. Not a literal hermit of course but I do want to practice alone.
I don’t expect to nor want to convert anyone. Conversions don’t happen by online arguments and I have a view that it doesn’t matter if you agree with or nor. It’s not like I think you’re going to hell if you disagree. Haha.

I like to think my intention is to give theologically orthodox believers a chance to point out flaws in my thinking. That’s helped me before. Or suggest counter arguments or alternative views I haven’t considered. Perhaps I am doing it subconsciously for attention though. At some points int if I keep posting about it I would.

I saw this Tillich quote and felt I wish I had found it earlier back when I posted before since that what I was trying to say. I’ve also come up with some scriptural arguments recently to test out.

But I should strive to be compassionate and not harmful and not self seeking. I’ll take your honest opinion. If you think I’ve gotten to the point that’s it is frivolous and indulgent at this point let me know and I’ll stop. I’m not trying to sacrasticly melodramatic, I have been seriously considering this on my own. If you, in good faith, think I should stop posting for a while I will. I won’t be hurt.

God’s Peace,
Fred

Hi, Fred!

I must confess that it is irritatingly confusing… I do not mean to demean or be dismissive… but it seems that people such as Tillich (I’m quite pedestrian, I did not know that person existed till you cited his works.), those who espouse themselves to universalism (all are saved by God at the end regardless of their wickedness and their rejection of God), the OSAS and its derivative theologies have the common tenets that a) there’s no progress in man’s relationship with God (everything exists till the end, unchanging), and, b) in spite of Yahweh God efforts to Reveal (demonstrate through His interaction with man) Himself and His Salvific Plan, they keep seeking a shortcut to God that both derails His Salvific Plan and makes void His Word (Revelation).

I believe that this goes to ego–as it once was said, ‘I think, therefore I am (Descartes’s Cogito ergo sum);’ which boils down to Hill’s, “Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, the mind can achieve" So it is not God’s Salvific Plan or God’s Revelation that man needs to engage… man needs only engage what his own mind conceives and believe!

Yes, it is true that God Calls all men to Salvation; yet, there are set boundaries for this Relationship. Yes, it is true that God Calls each individual man to Fellowship and to Bond in a unique and individual way to Him; yet, the prescription is that Yahweh God Is our God and that we are His People–not His individuals! …even hermits, while seeking to Serve God and an all exclusive state, are bound to the Church (Community) that Jesus, the God that Saves, Himself Founded:

10 then I am glad to tell you all, and would indeed be glad to tell the whole people of Israel, that it was by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the one you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by this name and by no other that this man is able to stand up perfectly healthy, here in your presence, today. 11 This is the stone rejected by you the builders, but which has proved to be the keystone. 12 For of all the names in the world given to men, this is the only one by which we can be saved.’

(Acts 4:10-12)
So yes, if your Calling is that you Serve God in an extreme exclusion of the world, you do well to heed God’s Calling; yet, if you simply have this *je ne sais quoi *feeling that you do better by seeking God alone than by Fellowship in His Body… well, heard of the guy that cut his nose in spite of his face?

Consider this low argument… why do you suppose that I continue to respond to your queries… what is my gain… what would it matter to me if you remain away from the Body or if you join?

Here’s St. Paul’s answer:

1 What I want to say now is no pretence; I say it in union with Christ – it is the truth – my conscience in union with the Holy Spirit assures me of it too. 2 What I want to say is this: my sorrow is so great, my mental anguish so endless, 3 I would willingly be condemned and be cut off from Christ if it could help my brothers of Israel, my own flesh and blood…

5 They are descended from the patriarchs and from their flesh and blood came Christ who is above all, God for ever blessed! Amen…

Remember: It is through Isaac that your name will be carried on, 8 which means that it is not physical descent that decides who are the children of God; it is only the children of the promise who will count as the true descendants…

16 In other words, the only thing that counts is not what human beings want or try to do, but the mercy of God…

24 Well, we are those people; whether we were Jews or pagans we are the ones he has called. 25 That is exactly what God says in Hosea: I shall say to a people that was not mine, ‘You are my people’, and to a nation I never loved, ‘I love you’…

27 Referring to Israel Isaiah had this to say: Though Israel should have many descendants as there are grains of sand on the seashore, only a remnant will be saved,…

33 …See how I lay in Zion a stone to stumble over, a rock to trip men up – only those who believe in him will have no cause for shame.

(Romans 9:1-33)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yeah, if I say no one ever goes to hell, I’m denying human freedom to some degree.
The idea of purgatory helps here. A person who is not a repentant believer at their death would need to have a change of character to be saved, they would have to come to repentance. Perhaps we all would. Purgatory is a model for how when we are presented with truth of God and truth of ourselves we are humbled and moved to repentance. This process happens in life too and is a key to a genuine spiritual life. Perhaps this is an instant process or perhaps it takes eons.
Can someone really remain in unrepentance though? God is the source of our very being and meaning. In life there is always something we choose over God like wealth or pleasure or pride. But in the final judgement, all things but God disappear. Even our pride vanishes as we see ourselves as a finite creation. How could we confine to choose our No to God’s Yes.

Another objection is that as humans we are never fully free existentially to begin with. Who we are with our thoughts and feelings (which guide our will) doesn’t occur a vacuum. We are the dependentlu arising product of our interior and exterior conditioning. Objective, existential free will of choosing for no reason other than to exercise choice doesn’t exist. If some one rejects God they have a reason for doing so. Are they then eternally punished for being subject to the conditions that created their rejection. It would be more compassionate for God to subject them to purification that altered those conditions; purging them of false views and misguided impulses. Again I think is purging occurs in all of us and is the subject of the spiritual life. Since none of us finish this journey on earth, I have faith it will continue after death.

P.S. Dorthy, your response is why I posted, thank you! You helped me see a potential issue and attempt to modify my thinking and I now have a stronger understanding as a result.

Hi Fred!

(You must feel hounded by me, sometimes… I apologize for that–I just feel the need to respond to certain elements of your posts because it is not only you who course through the net…)

…as I have highlighted… consider life–can we go to an agency and take out credit for our children as they are born with the premise that once they become successful and productive they will repay the extended credit?

It is the same with the rejection of God; how can God credit us a lifetime of rejection with Salvation, once everything is stripped away from us and there’s only: God or Damnation in front of us?

Rather, God places this choice right at the Beginning:

17 But if your heart strays, if you refuse to listen, if you let yourself be drawn into worshipping other gods and serving them, 18 I tell you today, you will most certainly perish; you will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today: I set before you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live, 20 in the love of Yahweh your God, obeying his voice, clinging to him; for in this your life consists, and on this depends your long stay in the land which Yahweh swore to your fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob he would give them.’

(Deuteronomy 30:17-20)
…and this has been God’s Constant Call to man:

25 But you object, “What the Lord does is unjust”. Listen, you House of Israel: is what I do unjust? Is it not what you do that is unjust? 26 When the upright man renounces his integrity to commit sin and dies because of this, he dies because of the evil that he himself has committed. 27 When the sinner renounces sin to become law-abiding and honest, he deserves to live. 28 He has chosen to renounce all his previous sins; he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 29 And yet the House of Israel objects, “What the Lord does is unjust”. Is what I do unjust, you House of Israel? Is it not what you do that is unjust? 30 House of Israel, in future I mean to judge each of you by what he does – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent, renounce all your sins, avoid all occasions of sin! 31 Shake off all the sins you have committed against me, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why are you so anxious to die, House of Israel? 32 I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent and live!

(Ezekiel 18:1-32)
…and Yahweh God’s Divine Providence has more than met man 99.9999…% of the way:

14 as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, 15 so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.

(St. John 3:14-17)
Yet, man insists on rejecting God through the wicked employment of his life while deriding and subverting God’s Love, Mercy, and Justice; it is hollowood’s spirituality: God must save all cause evil is only another form of good.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Jcrichton,

Your comments about converting others keeps coming back to me. You’ve clearly hit a nerve but that’s okay, it shows I need to do some long, hard reflection.

I keep wondering why I have such a thirst for Truth as much as I can grasp it. It’s pretty obsessive actually. I also find myself drawn so strongly to theology and o devour book after book in my free time.

Naturally, part of me thinks that I should I become a theologian and should write books or blogs or give talks or whatnot. But again and again the answer I get in prayer is No. I keep seeing in my writing, even on here, my thirst for affirmation and not the presence of God. People don’t need theologians or at least they don’t need me telling them how I think I’ve got it figured out.

I do feel called to prayer though. I feel I am only myself and who I want to be when I pray. But why is theology such an obessession? It’s not where I most encounter God, that’s in prayer. To some degree I need some sort of understanding in order to know how to pray prayer is also mostly listening, so I shouldn’t shut my ears to theological truths. I thinks it mostly trying to reconcile the reality I feel in prayer and my understanding in my head. As a fundamentalist Protestant then a Buddhist then a Jew my head and my heart never matched up.

But I’m going to back off the forums once I get things a little more figured out. I’d also rather talk here than in the real world. I think I keep hearing, from God, that I should keep my theology (or as you would say heresy) to myself.

Hi, Fred!

Thirst for the Truth (Christ) and thirst for intimacy with God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) is never wrong or void.

I think where we go wrong (everyone, including the Religious, theologians and scholars) is when we marry ourselves to our “feelings” and “needs.”

It would be wrong of me to suggest that you refrain from posting; how would I know if the Holy Spirit will not use your experience to both teach you and forge your heart and mind to God’s? How would I know that the Holy Spirit will not use this exchange to hone me? …to break me down or build me up to the man that God wants?

It would be hypocritical of me to suggest that we must seek remain in the Fold (the Church: the Body of Christ) but I would demand that I be the one to determine who can and cannot contribute.

What I would love is for you to slowdown… consider intimacy with God not as a world wind romance… but as an old fashion Biblical romance… Enoch walked with God for about 300 hundred years… then God took him away… few have ever experienced such intimacy… Abel was cut short at his Prime of Relationship with God… yet, he remained in God’s Presence, even as a model of Faith for us!

I think that many well-intended people embrace chaos rather than God because they continue to search for God through their own means–they search out man’s wisdom and teachings while Ignoring God’s Revelation through Sacred Writing and His Determination to Call to His Own a People (Romans 9 thru 11:32).

Please understand that when I write on this site I do not rehearse; also understand that I seek to urge a deeper longing and understanding of God… and while I may be critical of what I find on these exchanges, my intentions are to nudge others to God not away from God; as pedestrian as I am, I may not be able to express myself as the Holy Spirit may want me to… but I have Him in mind when I post… even when I’m irritated by a stubborn thought or projection…

You have as much rights or more so than me to post here and anywhere else… yet, if I reply in a manner that you do not comprehend or need clarification, please say so; I’ll do my best to expand/clarify on my thoughts.

May the Holy Spirit’s Light Shine upon you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ZenFred]

Jcrichton,

Thanks for your kind words. I never doubted your intentions. If I didn’t want to be criticized or challenged I wouldn’t post in a catholic apologetic forum. There are plenty of spiritual, hippy places I can post whatever I went and get people to praise me.
This forum is unique in having many people who have strong theological backgrounds and debate skills. It also has some very wise mystics who have been key in guiding me. I also can’t shake being drawn to the question of who is Jesus Christ. I can’t just be a good Jew or Muslim and move on. Jesus keeps coming back up in ways I don’t understand. So if I wanted you all to treat me with kid gloves I’d go somewhere else.

As for Universalism, I don’t know if Tillich was a Universalist, he definitely doesnt go out and say it. But a lot of liberal theologians are closet universalists.
You made a lot of counter points but I’ll focus on two:

1. Universalism deemphazes the need for spiritual growth.
   This is a really great point. I rail against cheap grace of the Protestants but if you don’t have to do anything at all, not even give lip service repentance, to be saved that’s even worse. Jesus and the prophets talk a lot about judgment too! We can’t just have a get out of jail free card. I mentioned before the idea of purgatory as a purification towards becoming truly repentant. I need to read Origen on the topic. He says even the devil will repent and be eventually saved.
2. Universalism denies the need for scripture
   I was struggling with this very thought in church this morning. If I see God as an universal, philosophic concept that all faiths imperfectly reflect then there is nothing special about the Bible. It’s the zen saying of nothing’s holy, everything’s holy. Sitting in church is just as good of a way to find and worship God as watching NASCAR if God is fully everywhere. I just can’t go that far. I found my faith after atheistic Buddhism in prayers of the Torah. I can’t just throw out the God of Abraham. There is something special about those stories of the God of Israel. As I already mentioned I can’t shake there is something special about the stories of Jesus. It isn’t like Vishnu or Thor or Horus. The Unitarian Universalists get lost here with doing Wiccan circles and Buddhist meditations and voodoo all in the same breath. But I also don’t want to say a Hindu doesn’t experience God or God’s grace as fully as a Jew or Christian does. It’s a tough pickle…

 

[jcrichton]

Jcrichton,

Thanks for your kind words. I never doubted your intentions. If I didn’t want to be criticized or challenged I wouldn’t post in a catholic apologetic forum. There are plenty of spiritual, hippy places I can post whatever I went and get people to praise me.
This forum is unique in having many people who have strong theological backgrounds and debate skills. It also has some very wise mystics who have been key in guiding me. **I also can’t shake being drawn to the question of who is Jesus Christ. I can’t just be a good Jew or Muslim and move on. Jesus keeps coming back up in ways I don’t understand. **So if I wanted you all to treat me with kid gloves I’d go somewhere else.

Hi, Fred!

Jesus keeps coming back because He begins our Faith and He consummates our Faith:

16 for in him were created all things in heaven and on earth: everything visible and everything invisible, Thrones, Dominations, Sovereignties, Powers – all things were created through him and for him. 17 Before anything was created, he existed, and he holds all things in unity. Now the Church is his body, he is its head.

(Colossians 1:16-17)
When we awake to the Truth and we allow the Holy Spirit to Guide us… there’s no escape: Christ Jesus is the Truth!

As for Universalism, I don’t know if Tillich was a Universalist, he definitely doesnt go out and say it. But a lot of liberal theologians are closet universalists.
You made a lot of counter points but I’ll focus on two:

1. Universalism deemphazes the need for spiritual growth.
   This is a really great point. I rail against cheap grace of the Protestants but if you don’t have to do anything at all, not even give lip service repentance, to be saved that’s even worse. Jesus and the prophets talk a lot about judgment too! We can’t just have a get out of jail free card. I mentioned before the idea of purgatory as a purification towards becoming truly repentant. I need to read Origen on the topic. He says even the devil will repent and be eventually saved.
2. Universalism denies the need for scripture
   I was struggling with this very thought in church this morning. If I see God as an universal, philosophic concept that all faiths imperfectly reflect then there is nothing special about the Bible. It’s the zen saying of nothing’s holy, everything’s holy. Sitting in church is just as good of a way to find and worship God as watching NASCAR if God is fully everywhere. I just can’t go that far. I found my faith after atheistic Buddhism in prayers of the Torah. I can’t just throw out the God of Abraham. There is something special about those stories of the God of Israel. As I already mentioned I can’t shake there is something special about the stories of Jesus. It isn’t like Vishnu or Thor or Horus. The Unitarian Universalists get lost here with doing Wiccan circles and Buddhist meditations and voodoo all in the same breath. But I also don’t want to say a Hindu doesn’t experience God or God’s grace as fully as a Jew or Christian does. It’s a tough pickle…

The most salient thing of universalism is that man can be wicked (hollowood’s spirituality) and he can reject God, and he can commit himself to unrighteousness without any concern because everything is placed on God Who’s Wrath and Justice are only but toothless and clawless whimpering old chiguaguas with delusions of sabretooths who guard against trespassers as man coasts right into Salvation.

Your trek has brought you from a path (search) based on human abilities and intellect… to a path where God meets man… to the Path where God Becomes man in order to uplift men… this place is beyond human intellect and knowledge… it is where the physical meets the metaphysical and we cannot engage God through our finite means… let the Holy Spirit Carry you… it is God Who has placed that longing in your heart and mind!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steve_b]

Hello,

I have made several threads on here before expressing my faith in God without doctrinal orthodoxy. I feel it’s always been very difficult to express this position. I just finished a book of sermons by Paul Tillich and he puts it perfectly.

“You are accepted, accepted by that which is greater than you and the name of which you do not know. Do not ask for the name now; perhaps you will find it later. Do not try to do anything now; perhaps later you will do much. Do not seek for anything; do not perform anything; do not intend anything. Simply accept the fact that you are accepted! If that happens to us, we experience grace.”

I would suggest that we can accept God’s grace without doctrinal labels and even in theological error. The pious Muslim or Jew accepts and receives God’s grace fully as a beloved child of God without ever using the name of Jesus in a Christian context. They don’t need to, they are accepted by God. The proof is this is taking to such a person and their faith and the presence of God is clearly reflected in their life.

I have some additional arguments for universalism but I figured this would be a good place to start.

I do have a technical theological question too:
Traditionally Universalism is that all humanity regardless of faith or non-faith or moral character will be saved. No one will go to hell permanently.
What would the view be that all people of good faith in God and moral character across faiths are saved or have equal access to salvation be called? It’s not really a syncretism since I’m not saying if their doctrines are true, only their devotion and divine favor.

Thanks, Fred

Jesus who will do all judging, answered that question in advance.

Matthew 7:13-14 ,

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,

Jesus knowing in advance what He is going to go through, and all humanity will go through, down to the last person born, answers the question

• Jesus didn’t deny the questioner’s point.
• Jesus actually validated the point, and expanded on it. Only a few are saved.

meaning most go to hell.

Those who die in a state of grace, (no mortal sins on their soul) but not perfect enough for a straight shot to heaven, go through purification prior to entrance to heaven. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15]

They who go through purgatory are counted in with the few

 

[po18guy]

In other words, I’m OK, You’re OK? That sounds vaguely familiar…

The salient point of inquiry here should be: who or what decided that Tillich would be the trustworthy repository of truth? And, who or what denied billions of souls that deposit of truth before Tillich was born?

 

[ZenFred]

Hi, Fred!

Jesus keeps coming back because He begins our Faith and He consummates our Faith:

When we awake to the Truth and we allow the Holy Spirit to Guide us… there’s no escape: Christ Jesus is the Truth!

The most salient thing of universalism is that man can be wicked (hollowood’s spirituality) and he can reject God, and he can commit himself to unrighteousness without any concern because everything is placed on God Who’s Wrath and Justice are only but toothless and clawless whimpering old chiguaguas with delusions of sabretooths who guard against trespassers as man coasts right into Salvation.

Your trek has brought you from a path (search) based on human abilities and intellect… to a path where God meets man… to the Path where God Becomes man in order to uplift men… this place is beyond human intellect and knowledge… it is where the physical meets the metaphysical and we cannot engage God through our finite means… let the Holy Spirit Carry you… it is God Who has placed that longing in your heart and mind!

Maran atha!

Angel

Hmm… I’m stuck with tensions or paradoxs that I don’t think as humans we can solve. God is both abounding in grace and love but also unflinching in His justice. God is both the creator and Lord of all people but has chosen Israel as His people. Of course this is just the beginning of many paradoxs. God is both hidden and self evident, He is both our help and refuge but allows great evil and suffering.
I’m trying to dance around these things but it’s just speculation really.
In my prayers this morning I felt called to prayer again and not theology. I’ve said this before, but even if I did puzzle together a systematic theology, what would I do with it? The Christian church doesn’t need another theologian or at least they don’t need me to be one. I don’t feel some prophetic call to change the system.
As good Catholics you all would probably say the answer to these paradoxes is to put faith in the scriptures and the church and it’s teachings, right? I don’t think I’m there yet. I would need some sort of evidence that Jesus Christ, is the incarnate God, is present in the church, and is a special and best path to God. That’s the Jesus they says “I am the way, the truth, the light…”
Right now, I just see Jesus as one prophet amoung many and the church one place amoung many to find God. That’s the Jesus of Mark 12:29-31 who gives the greatest commandments which where not new but which had been lost in legalism and exclusivity.

 

[steve_b]

Hmm… I’m stuck with tensions or paradoxs that I don’t think as humans we can solve. God is both abounding in grace and love but also unflinching in His justice. God is both the creator and Lord of all people but has chosen Israel as His people. Of course this is just the beginning of many paradoxs. God is both hidden and self evident, He is both our help and refuge but allows great evil and suffering.
I’m trying to dance around these things but it’s just speculation really.
In my prayers this morning I felt called to prayer again and not theology. I’ve said this before, but even if I did puzzle together a systematic theology, what would I do with it? The Christian church doesn’t need another theologian or at least they don’t need me to be one. I don’t feel some prophetic call to change the system.
As good Catholics you all would probably say the answer to these paradoxes is to put faith in the scriptures and the church and it’s teachings, right? I don’t think I’m there yet. I would need some sort of evidence that Jesus Christ, is the incarnate God, is present in the church, and is a special and best path to God. That’s the Jesus they says “I am the way, the truth, the light…”
Right now, I just see Jesus as one prophet amoung many and the church one place amoung many to find God. That’s the Jesus of Mark 12:29-31 who gives the greatest commandments which where not new but which had been lost in legalism and exclusivity.

As Aquinas said

To those who have faith no explanation is necessary, but to those with no faith no explanation is possible

For example

In Jn 6, Jesus own disciples left Him, because they had no faith and wouldn’t listen to Him. As Jesus said, He knew in advance who did and didn’t have faith, before He even had this discourse with them. But He gave them the teaching they needed to know, knowing in advance, their deficiency, so that no one can say, He never eliminated anyone from a chance at the truth.

The one who spoke in the beginning and all that is, came into existence, is teaching them face to face. They saw Him perform miracles, no one could do, and still they left Him. Absolutely incredible. Free will is that powerful. And without faith, which is a gift from God, as Aquinas said, even God in the flesh won’t convince someone.

John 6:26-72]

As far as proof of Jesus is God, who else do you know resurrected from the dead as He said He would, and then walk again on the earth with huge numbers seeing that. Then they watched Him ascend back to heaven.

 

[ZenFred]

Steve,

I love the Aquanis quote. This is completely what I experience. It doesn’t matter how many times I go back to apologetic arguments, the incarnation just doesn’t make sense. Yet when I was younger, in college, I believed completely and never saw a reason not to.
Here’s some scripture along the same lines that come to mind.
Hebrews 12 Christ is the author and perfector of faith
Romans 12:6 prophecy (the reception of revelation) is proportional to faith

 

[steve_b]

Steve,

I love the Aquanis quote. This is completely what I experience. It doesn’t matter how many times I go back to apologetic arguments, the incarnation just doesn’t make sense. Yet when I was younger, in college, I believed completely and never saw a reason not to.

Think about who it is that is causing any of us to doubt.

• Jesus? Nope
• Satan? Yep

Zen:

Here’s some scripture along the same lines that come to mind.
Hebrews 12 Christ is the author and perfector of faith

Zen:

Romans 12:6 prophecy (the reception of revelation) is proportional to faith

and don’t forget to consume abundantly the inexhaustible graces through His sacraments

 

[jcrichton]

Hmm… I’m stuck with tensions or paradoxs that I don’t think as humans we can solve. God is both abounding in grace and love but also unflinching in His justice. God is both the creator and Lord of all people but has chosen Israel as His people. Of course this is just the beginning of many paradoxs. God is both hidden and self evident, He is both our help and refuge but allows great evil and suffering.
I’m trying to dance around these things but it’s just speculation really.
In my prayers this morning I felt called to prayer again and not theology. I’ve said this before, but even if I did puzzle together a systematic theology, what would I do with it? The Christian church doesn’t need another theologian or at least they don’t need me to be one. I don’t feel some prophetic call to change the system.
As good Catholics you all would probably say the answer to these paradoxes is to put faith in the scriptures and the church and it’s teachings, right? I don’t think I’m there yet. I would need some sort of evidence that Jesus Christ, is the incarnate God, is present in the church, and is a special and best path to God. That’s the Jesus they says “I am the way, the truth, the light…”
Right now, I just see Jesus as one prophet amoung many and the church one place amoung many to find God. That’s the Jesus of Mark 12:29-31 who gives the greatest commandments which where not new but which had been lost in legalism and exclusivity.

Hi, Fred!

I cannot get you to see what you do not want to see; I can only point you to the Way.

Yes, it is true that Israel is God’s chosen people; no it is not true that Israel is God’s only chosen people.

Yes, it is true that the Old Covenant Writings are God’s Word; not it is not true that it is only the Old Covenant Writings that ae God’s Word.

You want God to make a special Revelation to you about Jesus’ Divinity; yet, you reject every Word that God Has Spoken on this matter.

You want to determine, as many have, for Yahweh God how and when He should Reveal Himself; that’s the sin against the Holy Spirit–Faith in God cannot be coerced or gained through human intellect nor can man determine for God Who and how He Reveals Himself.

…just look at how wrong the understanding about Israel is–when Yahweh God met Abram He Promised him that He would make him the father of many nations; hence, He changed Abram’s name to Abraham.

Yahweh God qualifies Israel from her infancy (through Moses):

22 Then you will say to Pharaoh, “This is what Yahweh says: Israel is my first-born son.

(Exodus 4:22)
…and through Hosea He declared:

25 That is exactly what God says in Hosea: I shall say to a people that was not mine, ‘You are my people’, and to a nation I never loved, ‘I love you’. 26 Instead of being told, ‘You are no people of mine’, they will now be called the sons of the living God. 27 Referring to Israel Isaiah had this to say: Though Israel should have many descendants as there are grains of sand on the seashore, only a remnant will be saved, 28 for without hesitation or delay the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth.

(Romans 9:25-28)
So Israel’s Remnant are God’s firstborn; yet, the pagan nations, in Jesus Christ (St. John 1:1-14), become children of God.

Yet, this is not new–it was Yahweh God Who changed Abram’s name to Abraham as He Promised that He would make him a father of many nations!

The only way that a person could read the Bible and not accept Jesus as Lord and God is if he/she rejects the New Covenant and the New Covenant’s Sacred Writings–well that or if they joined a contortionist school that contorts God’s Word to mean what they want it to mean:

1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God and the Word was God

. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things came to be, not one thing had its being but through him. 4 All that came to be had life in him and that life was the light of men, 5 a light that shines in the dark, a light that darkness could not overpower. (St. John 1:1-5)

6 Again, when he brings the First-born into the world, he says: Let all the angels of God worship him. 7 About the angels, he says: He makes his angels winds and his servants flames of fire, 8 but** to his Son he says: God, your throne shall last for ever and ever;** and: his royal sceptre is the sceptre of virtue; (Hebrews 1:6-8)

12 Very soon now, I shall be with you again, bringing the reward to be given to every man according to what he deserves. 13** I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End**. (Apocalypse [Revelation] 22:12-13)
Maran atha!

Angel