Tim Tebow's dad wants to convert Catholics in the Philippines?

[Lost_Wanderer]

Sheep stealing?? Well let the CC go and feed their sheep then, or another shepard might arrive.

And what makes you think we don’t? Even if it looks like we don’t to you, what gives you the right to meddle and take? After all, the basic definition of stealing is taking something that’s not yours and without giving the owner (in this case, the shepherd) due notice.

Are people actually switching churches against their will? That’s a real question, not a rhetorical one.

No but my point is, people who do aren’t the direct product of proselytizing but personal conviction. Nobody came to him/her saying his/her current religion is wrong. Nobody tried to argue him/her to change. The decision was reached from within that person, not drawn from the outside.

Protestant missionaries are indeed in Hong Kong, Singapore, and Japan.

And Mr. Tebow hasn’t joined them because…?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

There are a few. I married one.

Does said spouse partake in underground fighting tournaments?

 

[Calgar]

Does said spouse partake in underground fighting tournaments?

No, but I have on occasion. With her laughing at me on the sidelines.

 

[Calgar]

Are people actually switching churches against their will? That’s a real question, not a rhetorical one.

Well, according to many in this thread the SBC is being “deceptive” in their mission work. Still haven’t gotten an explaination as to what they mean by that.

 

[JustaServant]

Well, according to many in this thread the SBC is being “deceptive” in their mission work. Still haven’t gotten an explaination as to what they mean by that.

You haven’t gotten an explaination because many, myself included, have lives outside of cyberspace. Patience is a virtue.
First let me preface by saying I am not calling YOU personally, deceptive. If you are, that is between you and God, I cannot make that charge, which is against fourm rules anyway. I am working on the assumption that you are being as honest as possible.
I was evangelical for 20 years and spent some of that time as a Baptist preacher. When the Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT) document was made public, many conservatives went ballistic because it was looked at as comprimise. Many Baptist leaders in each of the Baptist denominations rejected the ECT documents in their entirity. To even suggest Catholics were Christians like Baptists are Christians, was simply out of the question.
Liberally minded evangelicals on the other hand felt a ‘middle way’ in converting Catholics was preferable to the wide-fundamentalist, ‘whore of Babylon’ approach. “Stay away from issues such as Mary, the Eucharist, and the Pope. Concentrate on salvation thru Christ alone”. We were told, and God forgive me, I myself told, many “soul-winners” to concentrate on how “works don’t get you to Heaven (which Catholics do not believe)”. Get them to see their lost condition and then tell them all they need do is “ask Jesus into their heart”. Then focus on the assurance of salvation. Because Catholics beleive salvation can be lost.
But don’t put down their Church. Don’t attack Catholicism, get them ‘saved’ first and “the Holy Spirit will lead them out of the Catholic Church” (or brother Billy Bob will with personal interpretation of the Bible). Use ‘stealth’ to save Catholics. “Be all things to all people in order to save some”.
In the old days we called that deception, not ‘spin’.
I was there, I saw it. Unless you are willing to say I am being deceptive, you also will have to assume I am being as honest with you as possible.
I said I have more respect for the wide-eyed fundamentalist than the deceptive evangelical using ‘stealth’ to ‘save’ Catholics. I stand by the statement,
Getting back to the OP, I would be willing to put money down that Tom Tebow would, if he dared to come to this forum and explain himself, would use the same tactics as the ECT evangelicals.
Especially now that his son is a public figure and is thinking about politics.

 

[JustaServant]

The language that is often used, which I also used when I was across the Tiber was:
They are saved*** in spite*** of the Catholic Church, not because of.
They do not believe the Catholic Church has, in its teachings or doctrines, that which can lead a soul to salvation. If they are “saved” it comes from outside the Church, not inside it.

 

[Calgar]

You haven’t gotten an explaination because many, myself included, have lives outside of cyberspace. Patience is a virtue.
First let me preface by saying I am not calling YOU personally, deceptive. If you are, that is between you and God, I cannot make that charge, which is against fourm rules anyway. I am working on the assumption that you are being as honest as possible.
I was evangelical for 20 years and spent some of that time as a Baptist preacher. When the Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT) document was made public, many conservatives went ballistic because it was looked at as comprimise. Many Baptist leaders in each of the Baptist denominations rejected the ECT documents in their entirity. To even suggest Catholics were Christians like Baptists are Christians, was simply out of the question.
Liberally minded evangelicals on the other hand felt a ‘middle way’ in converting Catholics was preferable to the wide-fundamentalist, ‘whore of Babylon’ approach. “Stay away from issues such as Mary, the Eucharist, and the Pope. Concentrate on salvation thru Christ alone”. We were told, and God forgive me, I myself told, many “soul-winners” to concentrate on how “works don’t get you to Heaven (which Catholics do not believe)”. Get them to see their lost condition and then tell them all they need do is “ask Jesus into their heart”. Then focus on the assurance of salvation. Because Catholics beleive salvation can be lost.
But don’t put down their Church. Don’t attack Catholicism, get them ‘saved’ first and “the Holy Spirit will lead them out of the Catholic Church” (or brother Billy Bob will with personal interpretation of the Bible). Use ‘stealth’ to save Catholics. “Be all things to all people in order to save some”.
In the old days we called that deception, not ‘spin’.
I was there, I saw it. Unless you are willing to say I am being deceptive, you also will have to assume I am being as honest with you as possible.
I said I have more respect for the wide-eyed fundamentalist than the deceptive evangelical using ‘stealth’ to ‘save’ Catholics. I stand by the statement,
Getting back to the OP, I would be willing to put money down that Tom Tebow would, if he dared to come to this forum and explain himself, would use the same tactics as the ECT evangelicals.
Especially now that his son is a public figure and is thinking about politics.

Thank you for your answer. I don’t appreciate your hubris.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Pff… hahah. It reminds me of myself save its lechon instead of crab. XD

That’s still nothing compared to the idiots now making a media spectacle out political bungles.

:hypno: Lechon Asao’? My mouth is watering now… I miss it so much!

 

[HollyDolly]

(name removed by moderator)—

I don’t want to derail this thread, but here is the book I mentioned this morning, about burying a Saint statue to help sell a house. (The saint is St. Joseph, sometimes used with a medal of St. Jude for really hard to sell houses—I got the wrong Saint this morning.):

amazon.com/St-Joseph-Real-Estate-Agent/dp/1569553610

The author has a biography further down the page, with actually quite good credentials: graduate degrees from Gregorian University, The Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome, and Hebrew University in Jerusalem. So, well, I guess he can make a case for the statue burying not being a superstition, but it still leaves me feeling rather leery of the whole enterprise.

On the Amazon page also are some of the plastic St. Joseph house-selling kits for sale.

I’ve only heard of this thing recently.Nothing any of my relatives would ever do that.I know they and myself have asked,Jesus,Mary,the Holy Spirit and the saints for help,but would never do something like this.
It ticks me off when people do this,especially Catholics.To me this shows disrespect to St.Joseph, and it also just ads fuel to the evangelicals fire about Catholics worshiping statutes.
Like recently in Houston somebody said the Virgin Mary was in a tree trunk.The photos of the tree were on the news.Doesn’t look anything to me like Mary.If people see that, then they were not taught their faith very well.

 

[JustaServant]

Thank you for your answer. I don’t appreciate your hubris.

I answered you in the most polite way possible. Which part is hubris?
You’re not talking to a bunch of cradle Catholics who have never experienced the various flavors of Protestantism. Me and many other former evangelicals on this board can now see what it is like on this side of the Tiber. Now we get the weird looks from evangelical co-workers when they find out we are Catholic ("Oh…(Long uncomfortable pause)…you’re Catholic…). I suspose what goes around comes around. We probably did the same to other Catholics when we were evangelical. Now we are spoken to as if the Bible is a foriegn book to us. Now ***we ***are targets of the “soul winners” we were once a part of ourselves.
The differance now, is for those of us who have been far into fundamentalist/evangelical culture, we now see how deceptive we used to be.
No one is calling YOU deceptive, but it is a rare Southern Baptist who believes the Catholic Church has, in its teachings or doctrines, that which can lead a soul to salvation.
If you are one, and I have no reason to doubt your word, I’ll shake your hand.
Because in twenty years across the Tiber, I never met one.

 

[stewstew03]

Is every person who says they are a Christian a Christian? Come on, I don’t buy it.

I was an atheist who attended church regularly for years.

Church membership isn’t a great method for determining if someone is a Christian or not.

As for this dudes ministry: I agree, if he is wasting time and resources evangelising other Christians it’s wrong.

I agree with your point, Calgar, but my point was that NAMB starts with the assumption that Catholics are ripe for conversion (i.e., they are not true bible-believing Christians). And, as I said, the reverse is not true; the Church does not seek out ecclesial communities (i.e., protestants) and plant churches in an effort to convert them to Catholicism.

 

[stewstew03]

Books like that are a great example of the difference between “orthodoxy” and “orthopraxy.” Fortunately, we can always refer to scripture (first) and the catechism (second) to discern the truth.

 

[Calgar]

it is a rare Southern Baptist who believes the Catholic Church has, in its teachings or doctrines, that which can lead a soul to salvation.
If you are one, and I have no reason to doubt your word, I’ll shake your hand.
Because in twenty years across the Tiber, I never met one.

The SBC is a huge, worldwide organization. I don’t doubt that there are southern baptists who despise catholics for one reason or another (as there are catholics who despise southern baptists), but I have yet to see it.

 

[stewstew03]

I answered you in the most polite way possible. Which part is hubris?
You’re not talking to a bunch of cradle Catholics who have never experienced the various flavors of Protestantism. Me and many other former evangelicals on this board can now see what it is like on this side of the Tiber. Now we get the weird looks from evangelical co-workers when they find out we are Catholic ("Oh…(Long uncomfortable pause)…you’re Catholic…). I suspose what goes around comes around. We probably did the same to other Catholics when we were evangelical. Now we are spoken to as if the Bible is a foriegn book to us. Now ***we ***are targets of the “soul winners” we were once a part of ourselves.
The differance now, is for those of us who have been far into fundamentalist/evangelical culture, we now see how deceptive we used to be.
No one is calling YOU deceptive, but it is a rare Southern Baptist who believes the Catholic Church has, in its teachings or doctrines, that which can lead a soul to salvation.
If you are one, and I have no reason to doubt your word, I’ll shake your hand.
Because in twenty years across the Tiber, I never met one.

Well done. I used to belong to an SBC church as well (married and baptized there, converted in 2005). Several weeks ago I started a thread that contained a primer by Southern Baptists on how to save Catholics. It was taken down, presumably because it stirred up so much controversy. However, the primer can be found here, and the guidelines clearly suggest that the evangelist behave in a stealth manner so as to lure the Catholic into “the truth.”

 

[JustaServant]

"You are correct that the primary focus of BTEA is mission work in the Philippines. Although Filipinos are very religious people, they do not understand how to have a personal relationship with Jesus. Jesus says in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.” Many Filipinos believe that they can do enough good things to earn their way to heaven and have a personal relationship with Jesus. The Bible is clear that no one is good enough to earn their salvation because we have all sinned. God sent His only Son as the sacrifice to pay our sin penalty.*** Because of Jesus, we are able to go to heaven one day. If you would like for me to discuss this further, I would be happy to do so.*** Thank you for your time. Have a blessed day!

Tiffany

Tiffany Gray
Assistant to Bob Tebow
Bob Tebow Evangelistic Association


She’s trying to evangelize YOU right in the e-mail.
Okay moderator, you can close the thread now. Point proven.
Uh…unless future presidential candidate Tim Tebow would like to respond.

 

[JustaServant]

The SBC is a huge, worldwide organization. I don’t doubt that there are southern baptists who despise catholics for one reason or another (as there are catholics who despise southern baptists), but I have yet to see it.

I never said they ‘despise’ Catholics.
Pity on our poor ‘lost’ condition (as examplified in the email Jharek recieved), yes, but not despise.

 

[JustaServant]

Well then lets use play on the side of caution and see if you ever get a response.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If you ask me, reading the response from Tebow’s assistant is obvious enough that they don’t consider us Christians. The rhetoric used is clearly is no longer different from that of Jack Chick. We are accused of thinking works gets us to heaven as well as putting tradition over the Bible. Classic.

 

[Kristin234]

I don’t get this whole Protestants using “stealth” and “deception” to convert people. When some Protestants do it they mainly do it because they believe that what they believe in is right and so they want others to know.

I know someone who was born into a Catholic family. He had converted to Protestantism when he first started college, and his parents were very upset because they were still very Catholic. They were definitely far from cafeteria Catholics and they followed the Church when it came to everything. He would always talk to them about it, the Bible, and why he didn’t agree with the Catholic Church. He actually never started with the intention to convert them but he just wanted them to understand why he left the Catholic Church and his parents eventually ended up converting. He wasn’t being deceptive or lying to his family.

Some on here might say what he did was wrong, but the point is he wasn’t doing any of this to “steal” his parents from the Catholic Church. He was doing it with an open heart and he was really genuine about it. To say that these people are being deceptive and are doing whatever they can and using whatever techniques they can to “steal” people is wrong. I mean, yes it is wrong for them to be doing that but they might be honestly doing it because they believe in what they believe and think they are helping these people out.

 

[KathleenGee]

The answer from the Tebow organization reflects as well where their faith is…at the first step of conversion…I have watched some non-Catholic programs, and heard this from participants in these kinds of services…that people will go up for altar call to be ‘saved’…going up a number of times…but compelled to live in ‘I am saved’ ongoing context…

We all backslide. But…

If you are not like them – in their faith expression, – you are not much of a Christian.

The first steps or stages in faith formation appear to be more emotion based…slogan based…but in time God gives us our dry season, one of His ‘absence’…and we have to search deeper in our faith and knowledge to find Him again…

People at this level of faith…it would be very hard to get them to think otherwise…what they sow, they reap…

Saved at 40, condemned at 80, as an eccentric once said.