Tim Tebow's dad wants to convert Catholics in the Philippines?

[ConstantineTG]

So have you heard of many Filipinos who have been convinced that Mary was not a perpetual virgin because of the “brethren of the Lord” argument that’s been presented by Protestants?

Its part of the propaganda the Evangelicals, Baptists, etc. spew on Filipino Catholics. Of course those who remain in the Catholic Church wouldn’t believe in that. Those who buy that become Protestant. Maybe we should ask Manny Pacquiao what he believes in today.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think its you who are missing the point. Over 100 years later and its not obvious to us as a nation whats wrong, its not Spain’s fault anymore. The fact that you’re blaming the system and not doing anything about it but complain about it is the problem. The problem today is not what Spain did 100, 200, 400 years ago. The problem today is what we are doing today.

Do I have to go Miriam Defensor on you too?

It does not matter other countries did it (even unto themselves). Stop parroting yourself.

It does not matter that First Nations have cultural flaws.

It does not matter if colonial Spain is no more.

What matters is that the root, the origin, of the many political evils was Spanish influence. Again, I am only pointing out the roots. Nothing more. I once more challenge you to prove that the practices of corruption plaguing this nation have no parallels with the colonial Spanish government 300 years ago.

And fix the system? I do my part of that already by simply being a more law-abiding citizen than the idiots at Malacanang.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do I have to go Miriam Defensor on you too?

It does not matter other countries did it (even unto themselves). Stop parroting yourself.

It does not matter that First Nations have cultural flaws.

It does not matter if colonial Spain is no more.

What matters is that the root, the origin, of the many political evils was Spanish influence. Again, I am only pointing out the roots. Nothing more. I once more challenge you to prove that the practices of corruption plaguing this nation have no parallels with the colonial Spanish government 300 years ago.

And fix the system? I do my part of that already by simply being a more law-abiding citizen than the idiots at Malacanang.

Roots only grow and bear fruit if you leave it in the ground. You keep looking at the roots but you don’t pull them out. That is the problem. The fact that Spain was able to change us, why cannot we change ourselves? It seems we’re just waiting for the next colonial master to change us into something else, hopefully something good. But that is wishful thinking.

Bottom line, the problem today is what we are doing today, not what happened 100 years ago. Singapore was nothing in the 1960s, see where they are today. We have more than 3-times the amount of time Singapore had to transform herself to transform our nation. We haven’t done it. The problem is we complain, complain, complain, and never do anything. It is not Spain’s fault anymore, it just isn’t. We do not have the will as a society to change and move forward. Its our fault as a culture, collectively.

And so what if the culture today began with Spain? That is already besides the point. I’m not saying it didn’t begin with Spain. I’m saying we’ve separated from Spain for 114 years already. If we’re acting today the very same exact way we were acting 114 years ago, then it is our fault, not Spain’s.

And mind you, after the Americans left we were one of the top economies of Asia for the next 20-30 years. But we’re moving backwards, not forwards. Again, not Spain’s fault.

 

[PRmerger]

But old tradition places the brothers and sisters of Jesus as actual children of Joseph by his first (and at the time deceased) wife. While people have argued for and against the two theories, I’ll just go with the older tradition.

Catholics are certainly free to espouse that view.

 

[PRmerger]

Its part of the propaganda the Evangelicals, Baptists, etc. spew on Filipino Catholics. Of course those who remain in the Catholic Church wouldn’t believe in that. Those who buy that become Protestant. Maybe we should ask Manny Pacquiao what he believes in today.

But that’s what I’m wondering. How many Catholics buy this propaganda by the Evangelicals et al that, since it says “brothers” of Jesus that it means they are his womb-brothers.

I would think that no Filipino would ever be convinced by that argument, given our expanded understanding of “brother”.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

I would hope that you have some insights into the rewrites and only you know. In a nutshell to say you do not understand is admirable. To say one does not understand suggests a desire to understand. In order to understand anything there are many ways to satisfy that lack of understanding. I suggest that questions about whatever is lacking in understanding is paramount to satisfy that lack of understanding.

First, You accept and believe everything that I accept and believe with slight variation.
Second, What you and other Protestants deny about what I accept is what you don’t understand.ki

I did not understand “Evangelical Free Church”…so I investigated. I did searches and ultimately I made phone calls and talked to the people at churches in your community. I asked questions. I read and then asked for clarification and now I understand.

I understand that you have been reading Catholic/Christian literature. Be like the Eunuch and understand that to understand you need someone to guide you. That guide must be Catholic/Christian.

CopticChristian----

I do have several Catholics as guides. I’ve been a part of another forum for going on three years; the main moderator/leader is a Catholic spiritual director, writer, and retreat leader. Most of the other ‘regulars’ are Catholic, too. We’ve talked about Catholic/Protestant things a number of times. I have alot of respect for the people there, and I appreciate that the moderator/leader is older and more mature than I am. And thank God, it’s free of the snarky attitudes that sometimes crop up here.

Still, part of the problem is that Catholicism as I see it on that other forum is quite a bit different is some significant ways from the Catholicism that I find here. It’s puzzling. I’m not sure where Catholicism is being presented more accurately.

 

[ConstantineTG]

But that’s what I’m wondering. How many Catholics buy this propaganda by the Evangelicals et al that, since it says “brothers” of Jesus that it means they are his womb-brothers.

I would think that no Filipino would ever be convinced by that argument, given our expanded understanding of “brother”.

The problem is Filipinos in general are more heart than head. Not that its a bad thing, we have done extraordinary things because we put our heart in it. That is why we’ve become the best nurses in the world, not because we’re the smartest but because we genuinely care about the patients and their well being.

The problem is someone who exerts intellectual influence, a lot of people can’t overcome it. The reaction is from the heart, either they become angry in rejection, or become submissive and accept it. If you have watched Ang Dating Daan and Ang Tamang Daan disect and butcher verses to mislead the flock, you’ll know that polemics from Protestants have some good amount of success especially that most in the population are under catechized.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide…

Who I am addressing are the willful who refuse to open their mind and hearts to atleast the dignity of our faith in Christ…and go about maligning…

I was in a foreign mission…and met some women who told me of some anti-Catholic sect that came through from the USA…speaking against my missionary priests…they told me we worshipped statues…(they knew that was wrong, having no education)…I just shook my head no…and they said the priests had alot of money because drove jeeps…and told them that came from we lay people…and they later became Catholics…but the focus was their dignity that can only come from the Lord.

So what it gets to now…there are people who want to believe such things about Catholicism and are subsequently afraid of it, and there are those who hear such things…but don’t let it get to them…they stay open…

Okay, Kathleen, I think I get you.

I did want to talk more about this but I’m all “peopled-out” after a long day at an arts center, and I need to recharge with some quiet time.

I’ve enjoyed talking with you.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian----

I do have several Catholics as guides. I’ve been a part of another forum for going on three years; the main moderator/leader is a Catholic spiritual director, writer, and retreat leader. Most of the other ‘regulars’ are Catholic, too. We’ve talked about Catholic/Protestant things a number of times. I have alot of respect for the people there, and I appreciate that the moderator/leader is older and more mature than I am. And thank God, it’s free of the snarky attitudes that sometimes crop up here.

Still, part of the problem is that Catholicism as I see it on that other forum is quite a bit different is some significant ways from the Catholicism that I find here. It’s puzzling. I’m not sure where Catholicism is being presented more accurately.

Tell me what this forum is please.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Roots only grow and bear fruit if you leave it in the ground. You keep looking at the roots but you don’t pull them out. That is the problem. The fact that Spain was able to change us, why cannot we change ourselves? It seems we’re just waiting for the next colonial master to change us into something else, hopefully something good. But that is wishful thinking.

Well in that case, we have not much to disagree. I for one am not about to look for a fourth colonist to save us.

However, if you really trace this discussion back, you’ll find that I simply do not like it when people pit our forefathers, historical figures, and our national heroes against our religion. I don’t like it when people start sounding like apologists for the colonial Spanish crown instead of the Church.

With that said, there are a lot of things I find myself at odds with some of the self-proclaimed patriots of this country. I for one could only laugh at the nut who cosplayed Rizal and accused our Church of playing Padre Damaso. I face palm at the prevalent liberalism that is infecting my younger brother’s generation.

Still, none of that is enough to have me deny the abuses committed when colonial Spain had too much a comfortable hand in Church affairs.

And mind you, after the Americans left we were one of the top economies of Asia for the next 20-30 years. But we’re moving backwards, not forwards. Again, not Spain’s fault.

Only because we returned to putting imbeciles in government. Kinda like Spain did back then wouldn’t you think?

Look, you have a point. I agree that we should all stop complaining. We should try and do something. I just wish Filipino Catholics would stop thinking that to ‘do something’, we have to deny history just because our Church was infested with corrupt Spanish clergy.

Now with that in mind, I myself have been doing my best. Not to sound cynical though, but there’s only so much middle-class citizens can do. I for one have seen just as many fools among militant activists as I have seen among those in government positions (and those who support them). If you ask me, productivity is the only good thing one can do here. However, neither side seems to like the idea of staying out of politics and humble enough to stick to a job.

 

[trdchubi]

Well in that case, we have not much to disagree. I for one am not about to look for a fourth colonist to save us.

However, if you really trace this discussion back, you’ll find that I simply do not like it when people pit our forefathers, historical figures, and our national heroes against our religion. I don’t like it when people start sounding like apologists for the colonial Spanish crown instead of the Church.

With that said, there are a lot of things I find myself at odds with some of the self-proclaimed patriots of this country. I for one could only laugh at the nut who cosplayed Rizal and accused our Church of playing Padre Damaso. I face palm at the prevalent liberalism that is infecting my younger brother’s generation.

Still, none of that is enough to have me deny the abuses committed when colonial Spain had too much a comfortable hand in Church affairs.

Before I am accused of:

1. Being an apologists for the colonial Spanish crown instead of the Church
2. self-proclaimed patriot
3. a NUT
4. cosplayed Rizal and accused our Church of playing Padre Damaso

Let me clarify where I was coming from.

I am in no way denying the atrocities committed by Spain during colonial times in the Philippines. See post #361. Maybe I was not clear that I would rather dwell on the GOOD things that Spain brought in the country than settle on the idea of blaming Spain for all the chaos the Filipinos are in for right now.

Forgive and forget the past as the song goes. Filipinos should learn to forgive Spain (America and Japan as well) for the countless offenses committed, not for the colonizers sake, but for the sake of the Philippines.

On accusations #2,3 and 4:

I am well aware of what your saying, I have detached myself from the realities fed by mainstream media on ordinary filipinos and painstakingly contribute something positive in my own capacity for this country’s sake.

So please you can laugh all you want, but I will say I am not alone on this. You may include Constantine TG as a self-proclaimed patriot, a NUT himself for cosplaying Rizal and accusing the Church as Padre Damaso in one of his post.

But then again we might be wrong.

Still, the issue exist you cannot deny that. Just look at this certain Filipino Christian, obviously he knew the work of rizal and is using the propaganda against the Catholic church and its clergy. He calls for a better Philippines minus the Catholic church.

 

[trdchubi]

Trivial and unimportant? I’m not even that patriotic but even I would find it hard to call you a man of this country for saying this. The revolution, our fight for independence, and the recognition of ourselves as a nation wouldn’t have happened if our forefathers weren’t fed up with something.

That something was colonial rule. The rule that began with the Spanish.

Heck I’m an anime fan and even I don’t deny or trivialize Japanese atrocities.

Oho trust me when I say I’m all for making out how ridiculous the modern Filipino is. But guess what? You’re still more likely to attribute these flaws to foreign influence. You’re free to look for some of these flaws in our pre-colonial ancestors but do keep in mind that Spanish missionaries had a blast making sure we could never get a full picture of them.

LW, I share the same sentiments with Constantine TG. He has answered you point by point and I wouldn’t delve too much on that anymore.

Isolated cases? Where’s your proof? And please, use your common sense. People wouldn’t revolt because of a few ‘isolated’ incidents. 300 years of colonization yet you naively assume that Spanish clerical abuses were too far and few in between? Don’t underestimate communication during those times. It may not be as fast paced now but word still got around a lot more than you imply.

Wherever you’re getting your revisionist history, I’m glad it’s not being taught in our schools. Public education here is bad enough without putting more lies into Filipino children’s heads.

I think you know how gossip works in the Philippines, unfriendly word of mouth can easily destroy a person or whole institution’s reputation. Common Filipinos or “indios” back then get their information through word of mouth. Books were made for “insulares” so you may find a few sensationalize add- ons, a few tweaks to the message being relayed and you get a whole new endstory.

I have my fair share of reading Philippine History. I just found it tainted with bad news of yesteryears written just like the ones you’ll find on the headlines of Philippine tabloids of today. Legitimate Philippine Historians sensationalized everything ill by writing a whole section on the bad topics and set aside a paragraph on the good simply because bad events appealed more to Filipinos thus a pinoy mindset of playing the victim. Just look what is on the Philippine TV and you’ll know what the common Filipino is being brainwashed with.

Maybe Ambeth Ocampo is a revisionist maybe a cosplayer too when he wrote this article Why the Spaniards are Villains in Philippine History. I could say that I share with him a Philippine History that has a more positive light with regards to the Catholic friars of colonial years.

 

[KathleenGee]

Trdchubi…is making sound points in the last post…where I grew up, the immigrant Filipinos had their share of hardships like everyone else in the '20’s and '30’s…

There is substance to being insulated and believing whatever you want to hear…and yes, it can destroy a person…my in-laws fled Marcos…my husband was in school and directing an orphanage…a woman journalist wanted to date him but he refused and she told him she was going to destroy his name…

So an article came out in some Manila newspaper that accused him of stealing from the orphans and fellow students at the medical school believed it…and his parents told him to come to USA…to this day he has some bad effects of it…and he said alot of them were … Catholics…so it made him fall back on his parents’ anti-church sentiments…

And it came out in our own local newspaper that allegations are considered as truth in some parts of the Philippines…how a Filipino captain almost went to war thinking China or some other country had taken possession of one of their islands…

It is the infrastructure…and we have our problems here…big ones in our infrastructure…

You can’t pour fresh wine into an old flask…but I know that in Manila that many Filipinos are going through great healing through the Holy Spirit…they meet in great throngs…I have seen pictures of them gathering…and they venerate Christ at the 3 o’clock hour every day stopping everything to recall His passion…

so renewal for everyone is in the Lord…and communicating and seeking truth…the more we see the truth of a situation…there is blame or misjudgment on both sides in some way or another…and there were good intentions over taken by bad choices or reactions…

My daughter supports a little girl in the Philippines…pray for the rich and powerful for their conversion…and common education of truth for all people…

 

[AbideWithMe]

Tell me what this forum is please.

CopticChristian----I’ll pm you tomorrow.

 

[Little_Mary]

CopticChristian----I’ll pm you tomorrow.

It’s a secret?

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s a secret?

I would say that there may be a differentiation between secret and private. I have had private information shared with me and to the extent that it is not shared publicly I keep it private to create trust. This would not be the first time. To say it is secret would be less accurate than private and for whatever reason someone chooses not to make something public should be respected. This would fall into the realm of propriety. You may disagree.

 

[onemangang]

Roots only grow and bear fruit if you leave it in the ground. You keep looking at the roots but you don’t pull them out. That is the problem. The fact that Spain was able to change us, why cannot we change ourselves? It seems we’re just waiting for the next colonial master to change us into something else, hopefully something good. But that is wishful thinking.

Bottom line, the problem today is what we are doing today, not what happened 100 years ago. Singapore was nothing in the 1960s, see where they are today. We have more than 3-times the amount of time Singapore had to transform herself to transform our nation. We haven’t done it. The problem is we complain, complain, complain, and never do anything. It is not Spain’s fault anymore, it just isn’t. We do not have the will as a society to change and move forward. Its our fault as a culture, collectively.

And so what if the culture today began with Spain? That is already besides the point. I’m not saying it didn’t begin with Spain. I’m saying we’ve separated from Spain for 114 years already. If we’re acting today the very same exact way we were acting 114 years ago, then it is our fault, not Spain’s.

And mind you, after the Americans left we were one of the top economies of Asia for the next 20-30 years. But we’re moving backwards, not forwards. Again, not Spain’s fault.

I love the sound of personal responsibility in the morning!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

1. self-proclaimed patriot
2. a NUT
3. cosplayed Rizal and accused our Church of playing Padre Damaso

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! I did not accuse anyone of this. Re-read my statement please, you are seriously putting words in my mouth.

Before I am accused of:

1. Being an apologists for the colonial Spanish crown instead of the Church

Let me clarify where I was coming from.

I am in no way denying the atrocities committed by Spain during colonial times in the Philippines. See post #361. Maybe I was not clear that I would rather dwell on the GOOD things that Spain brought in the country than settle on the idea of blaming Spain for all the chaos the Filipinos are in for right now.

If you truly were focused on the good, then where do you get off for accusing our national heroes of being anti-Catholic? That’s exactly the sort of thing an apologist of the Spanish crown does. Sorry, but it sounds like you need to follow your own advice. Your links and responses are still trying to minimize/trivialize the atrocities committed.

Forgive and forget the past as the song goes. Filipinos should learn to forgive Spain (America and Japan as well) for the countless offenses committed, not for the colonizers sake, but for the sake of the Philippines.

Forgive does not necessarily imply forget or else penance would be meaningless.

You may include Constantine TG as a self-proclaimed patriot, a NUT himself for cosplaying Rizal and accusing the Church as Padre Damaso in one of his post.

What post? :ehh:

Still, the issue exist you cannot deny that. Just look at this certain Filipino Christian, obviously he knew the work of rizal and is using the propaganda against the Catholic church and its clergy. He calls for a better Philippines minus the Catholic church.

Actually, you’re linking to me the sort of patriotic nut I would expect to pull the Rizal cosplay stunt. Again, read my words before firing off accusations yourself.

At least I try to aim mine well.

Maybe Ambeth Ocampo is a revisionist maybe a cosplayer too when he wrote this article Why the Spaniards are Villains in Philippine History. I could say that I share with him a Philippine History that has a more positive light with regards to the Catholic friars of colonial years.

The article actually proves my point for the most part. Take that small exchange between Aguinaldo and Fray Espejo. One can easily say that Aguinaldo was singling out Espejo for being a good friar, in contrast to the abusive ones which he clearly accuses of provoking the rebellions.

In fact, the best thing you could glean from the article in support of your stance is this dubious passage:

Then as now there were friars who broke rules of poverty and obedience. There have been lapses in chastity. All the abuses attributed to the friars in the late 19th century were probably true, but in isolated cases. Yet, there is a tendency to generalize. If the Spanish friars were so bad, why was there a need for them to be written about in the propaganda movement? Wouldn’t their deeds be well known if they were as vile as we are led to believe? If Spanish friars were as bad as they are supposed to be, how could they walk freely in the Philippines, sometimes in places where the friar was the only Spaniard in town? Even the Spanish colonial government that did not always see eye to eye with the Church, treated the friars as a necessary evil. For example, one official was quoted as saying, “It is more important for the preservation of the colony to send 200 religious than 2,000 bayonets.”

This is, at best, pure speculation. And even then, I must point out the absurdity of the bolded portion. Why was there a need? Is this even a question? This was a need because they were so bad, duh! For the sake of justice, word of these abuses just had to get out!

Wouldn’t their deeds be so well known? I’ve reread this at least three times and still I’m wondering if this man wrote a typo. Of course their notorious depravity was well known!

And please, with the protection of the Spanish crown, you cannot say that friars weren’t safe in the Philippines. Heck, the 200 religious vs 2000 bayonets only proves that the religious had more sway over the people than the guardia civil.

 

[JustaServant]

Then again, that’s not even half of the culture clash I’m looking at when I see a Protestant missionary (even a Filipino one) street preaching in this country.

There he is, dressed up in a nice suit, preaching the ‘word of God’ through a megaphone (sometimes he’s even got signs and pickets).

All the while traysikads are passing by him, throngs of ukay-ukay vendors peddle their wares around him, BBQ stands unintentionally send smoke his way, and there I am giving him only so much as a raised brow before buying a stick or two and then going over to browse some bootleg DVDs out of boredom.

“Street preaching” is primarily a western, predominately American practice started in the days before mass communications.
They must look pretty ridiculous.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

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