Tim Tebow's dad wants to convert Catholics in the Philippines?

[AbideWithMe]

Regarding the email—

I would guess it probably is authentic. It does show a common misunderstanding of Catholicism–the idea that Catholicism teaches we can earn our way into heaven is a mistaken belief some Protestants hold.

I have a few comments to make, from my perspective as a non-Catholic. First, it’s human nature to believe we have to earn our way into heaven. It could be considered to be the default position of the human race to believe so, though talking more about that is beyond the scope of this thread. But, anyway, from my experience from intimate conversations with Protestants and Catholics, deep down this—letting God love us instead of trying to earn His love—is something almost all of us struggle with. Targeting Catholics as being particularly prone to this problem is misguided.

Secondly, though I do know myself that Catholicism doesn’t teach we can earn our way into heaven, from the outside, to a Protestant, it can look like it does. To be perfectly frank, if I hadn’t had some close Catholic friends, and didn’t read some really high quality Catholic writers and poets, I might well assume that Catholicism does teach what Bob Tebow seems to believe it does. In contrast to my Catholic friends who have a deep grasp of the grace and mercy of God that saves us, I 've known some poorly taught Catholics who believe they have to earn their way to heaven. I’ve also known plenty of Protestants who believe they have to earn their way to heaven.

 

[KathleenGee]

The onus is on Protestantism, particularly the non-denominational because of their lack of education.

I should add, they also have to use Christ to invalidate us…so they are wasting alot of precious time misrepresenting others faiths…ours…to the natives…hopefully there will be those who will see through these anti-Catholic approaches…the leaders don’t have to say much about our Church…but imply the people are not fed in Christ…

 

[AbideWithMe]

I don’t get this whole Protestants using “stealth” and “deception” to convert people. When some Protestants do it they mainly do it because they believe that what they believe in is right and so they want others to know.

I know someone who was born into a Catholic family. He had converted to Protestantism when he first started college, and his parents were very upset because they were still very Catholic. They were definitely far from cafeteria Catholics and they followed the Church when it came to everything. He would always talk to them about it, the Bible, and why he didn’t agree with the Catholic Church. He actually never started with the intention to convert them but he just wanted them to understand why he left the Catholic Church and his parents eventually ended up converting. He wasn’t being deceptive or lying to his family.

Some on here might say what he did was wrong, but the point is he wasn’t doing any of this to “steal” his parents from the Catholic Church. He was doing it with an open heart and he was really genuine about it. To say that these people are being deceptive and are doing whatever they can and using whatever techniques they can to “steal” people is wrong. I mean, yes it is wrong for them to be doing that but they might be honestly doing it because they believe in what they believe and think they are helping these people out.

I agree with this. I don’t see deception here or stealth. Yes, it’s wrong, but they believe what they believe to be the truth, and they believe they are helping people in an honest manner.

It’s part of Catholicism to believe that all non-Catholics should convert to Catholicism. When Catholics have tried to convert me, however politely or aggressively, I disagree with them on the need for my conversion. However, I appreciate that they care about me. I don’t see the polite ones as being deceptive or stealthy.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Getting back to the OP, I would be willing to put money down that Tom Tebow would, if he dared to come to this forum and explain himself, would use the same tactics as the ECT evangelicals.

JustaServant—

Richard Neuhaus and Avery Dulles were among the Catholics who were instrumental in writing up ECT. Do you honestly think you know better than they did what the intent of ECT was? There have been a number of follow up documents wherein some more thorny issues have been discuused from both sides, which ECT has put out since the first document.

 

[stewstew03]

Don’t confuse “motivation” with “tactic.” A protestant evangelical might be motivated by a sincere belief that Catholics are not saved. However, the tactic used is to “befriend” the Catholic (or offer some sort of service), and then tell him/her how the “Church in Rome” has led him/her astray.

Why don’t they just say, “Hey, if you faithfully follow the doctrines of your own Church you can know Christ and receive eternal life!”

 

[JustaServant]

JustaServant—

Richard Neuhaus and Avery Dulles were among the Catholics who were instrumental in writing up ECT. Do you honestly think you know better than they did what the intent of ECT was? There have been a number of follow up documents wherein some more thorny issues have been discuused from both sides, which ECT has put out since the first document.

Just because two Catholics wrote up ECT doesn’t give it authority. Any more than Nancy Pelosi’s being Catholic gives her any authority.

 

[AbideWithMe]

JustaServant—

In the part of your post that I quoted above, where you spoke of the “tactics of the ECT evangelicals”, it seemed to me that you were implying that those Evangelicals who were involved in ECT were dishonest in agreeing to sign it; or that you have a significant misunderstanding of the genesis and nature of the document. Maybe I misunderstood you?

Have you read the whole thing recently? If, as a Catholic, you have problems with it, please tell me where those problems are if/when you have time. (Perhaps that should be another thread.) I’m not being snarky or adversarial; I’d really like to know how it appears to you as Catholic.

 

[LisaA]

Fr. Neuhaus was an AMAZING and holy man. He was well known and well respected. He started a wonderful journal First Things. I assure you that if Fr Neuhaus was involved, along with Cardinal Dulles, there is great credibility attributed to the work. Please see his many writings and the tributes to him from great men of different faiths at his death in 2009. He was far more than “a Lutheran priest who converted to Catholicism.”

Lisa

 

[AbideWithMe]

Fr. Neuhaus was an AMAZING and holy man. He was well known and well respected. He started a wonderful journal First Things. I assure you that if Fr Neuhaus was involved, along with Cardinal Dulles, there is great credibility attributed to the work. Please see his many writings and the tributes to him from great men of different faiths at his death in 2009. He was far more than “a Lutheran priest who converted to Catholicism.”

Lisa

Yes, Fr. Neuhaus was an amazing man of God. I first came across him because my father subscribed to First Things for most of the nineties–great magazine.

 

[QuickCat]

You haven’t gotten an explaination because many, myself included, have lives outside of cyberspace. Patience is a virtue.
First let me preface by saying I am not calling YOU personally, deceptive. If you are, that is between you and God, I cannot make that charge, which is against fourm rules anyway. I am working on the assumption that you are being as honest as possible.
I was evangelical for 20 years and spent some of that time as a Baptist preacher. When the Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT) document was made public, many conservatives went ballistic because it was looked at as comprimise. Many Baptist leaders in each of the Baptist denominations rejected the ECT documents in their entirity. To even suggest Catholics were Christians like Baptists are Christians, was simply out of the question.
Liberally minded evangelicals on the other hand felt a ‘middle way’ in converting Catholics was preferable to the wide-fundamentalist, ‘whore of Babylon’ approach. “Stay away from issues such as Mary, the Eucharist, and the Pope. Concentrate on salvation thru Christ alone”. We were told, and God forgive me, I myself told, many “soul-winners” to concentrate on how “works don’t get you to Heaven (which Catholics do not believe)”. Get them to see their lost condition and then tell them all they need do is “ask Jesus into their heart”. Then focus on the assurance of salvation. Because Catholics beleive salvation can be lost.
But don’t put down their Church. Don’t attack Catholicism, get them ‘saved’ first and “the Holy Spirit will lead them out of the Catholic Church” (or brother Billy Bob will with personal interpretation of the Bible). Use ‘stealth’ to save Catholics. “Be all things to all people in order to save some”.
In the old days we called that deception, not ‘spin’.
I was there, I saw it. Unless you are willing to say I am being deceptive, you also will have to assume I am being as honest with you as possible.
I said I have more respect for the wide-eyed fundamentalist than the deceptive evangelical using ‘stealth’ to ‘save’ Catholics. I stand by the statement,
Getting back to the OP, I would be willing to put money down that Tom Tebow would, if he dared to come to this forum and explain himself, would use the same tactics as the ECT evangelicals.
Especially now that his son is a public figure and is thinking about politics.

Hi Justa: Being a “former” evangelical, you must know that every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is an “ambassador” for Him. As an ambassador we are to preach the word of reconcilation [2 Cor. 5:16-21]. Paul tells us that we are “saved” by believing the gospel that he preached [1 Cor. 15:1-4]. Further, he tells us that upon believing this goispel the Holy Spirit seals us until the day of redemption of our body [Eph. 1:13]. Shouldn’t we be sharing this good news with others?
Grace and Peace,
QC

 

[trdchubi]

That’s pretty much my point actually. Plenty of Muslims don’t like what their more ‘enthusiastic’ brethren have been doing to ‘convert all to Allah’. Hence, I don’t see them proselytizing much (and I live in the southern parts over here). Islamic missionary work bears that stigma.

Well I guess the poor and moderate muslims in your area will have the opportunity to know Christ better when Tim Tebow’s Hospital in Davao City, Mindanao is complete and operational.

One good thing that comes out of this wanting to convert the Philippines is the good will of the less fortunate there. The Tebows’ are just really walking their talk. As long as they win people for Christ, the better.

The Catholics should also find efforts to equal that of those famous Baptists. I just hope Manny Pacquiao would partner with a strong Catholic foundation on his 200 Bed Hospital in Alabel, Sarangani Mindanao.

 

[KathleenGee]

Filipinos have a strong faith in God and love Christ…but not comprehensible to Evangelicals.

I worked with a Greek Orthodox family and immediately noted the ambient of unity of faith. We mutually opened up, I responding to the beautiful icons, paintings, and expressions of faith in Christ. I looked through the Greek Orthodox ecclesial/liturgical calendar and recognize many of the Eastern saints, martyrs, theologians that contributed much to early Christian theology.

We expressed mutual regret that American Protestants cannot grasp our faith and its expression. They do not know what they are missing.

Yes, the Philippines inherited their Catholicism from Spain.

But the bigger problem in the Philippines that greatly effects peoples’ lives and causes them to fall is the poverty.

The problem is aspects of the economic infrastructure, not Catholicism.

There are those Filipino Catholics who are participating in the fullness of their faith and have their Filipino fellow natives’ best interest at heart. But making a living day to day is hard…you cannot judge or see when these people pray and reflect.

Problem is judging by appearances.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would clarify that the problem in the Philippines is not the Catholic faith, but social and economical.

To bring in different faiths will only serve to break down the unity and common faith of Filipino families.

Is the structure of the Philippines matriarchal or patriarchal?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I would clarify that the problem in the Philippines is not the Catholic faith, but social and economical.

To bring in different faiths will only serve to break down the unity and common faith of Filipino families.

Is the structure of the Philippines matriarchal or patriarchal?

Good question. I think externally, like what other people would see, Filipinos are patriarchal. But internally within families, very matriarchal.

 

[KathleenGee]

What I had read in newspaper up in Seattle, maybe 25 years ago, was that actually there are parts of the Philippines that are matriarchal.

The USA is patriarchal…and militant feminism is working to break it. Too much patriarchy, we have abusive dictatorship; too much matriarchy, we have tolerance of evil.

I read that, not in relation to the Philippines, but rather on societal structures.

I believe in Natural Law extending to the foundation of the family, the man is head and provider, the woman the heart who cares for and teaches her children in the Lord.

Back to Philippines. I read that the Spanish colonialists emasculated the Filipino men, and noted how teachable the women were.

I think this is the heart of the issue of problems there. And the Catholic Church, through Cardinal Sin, has addressed some aspects of it.

Again, what I am addressing is that the problems in the Philippines is not the Catholic faith. If anything, Catholicism is most adamant in recognizing marriage as permanent relationship whereas Protestants do not see marriage as sacrament. They make their vows, but do not see marriage as permanent and binding as we do. And subsequently, with their lack of binding of teachings, considering the plight of the Philippines, I would see their movement in the long run only leading to more factions and divisions in the family as we see here in interfaith marriages.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Back to Philippines. I read that the Spanish colonialists emasculated the Filipino men, and noted how teachable the women were.

Wherever you get your information, our historians say something of the opposite. The Spaniards sought to oppress the education of the ‘indio’ regardless of gender. The famous case of the Women of Malolos showed how much the Spanish civil government was outright terrified at the idea of their Filipino serfs learning Spanish and as a result, gaining access to ideas that would question their tyrranny.

If anything, some might say (not me actually) that the current state of our education system was born of Filipinos simply adopting the same oppressive tactics of the Spaniards.

 

[KathleenGee]

I got the issue of the Philippines being a matriarchal society from the Seattle Times, early 1980’s.

The other about Filipinas being more compliant, etc., was written by a Filipina…my in laws come from Manila and Illocos Sur, and I was reading materials through them…there was this idea that the Colonialists subjugated the men but developed the women…but my source?..I am going back 30 years…

What needs to be done…as what ts starting to happen here in the midst of economic and societial breakdown are people to let go of past…and work on developing new and communitarian models to restore and build a new society.

You can’t pour old wine into a new flask or else it will break. The Catholic Church is a good place to be in renewing and restoring society…I think of Poland…to draw what is best of society…

Catholic family teaching and social doctrine animated by the sacraments are the best in directing society, any society.

But you have to forgive. Christ called us to forgive. Forgive them…and pray for renewal…it is coming…

Yes…the Catholic teaching on family, society…and the coming renewal by the Holy Spirit is where to find new growth.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks for the link…fascinating…and yes, very different from history of Spanish in the Americas…

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I got the issue of the Philippines being a matriarchal society from the Seattle Times, early 1980’s.

Well with regards to that question, it’s a little bit more complicated in my own experience. ConstantineTG somewhat has it right though. In terms of culture, traditional notions of men being the brawny breadwinners of the population still prevail but in practice/reality, it somewhat diminishes. However, as to within the family, I’ll respond with regards to this bit:

The other about Filipinas being more compliant, etc., was written by a Filipina…my in laws come from Manila and Illocos Sur, and I was reading materials through them…there was this idea that the Colonialists subjugated the men but developed the women…but my source?..I am going back 30 years…

Compliant? Maybe if you’re a foreigner. From my own personal opinion though, a true symbol of the average Filipina is the tropical bird… both in its greatest and its worst. They are beautiful, exotic, and caring. However, they’re also, nagging, cannot be dominated (at least by local men like me), and never shut up. DX

I have been told by many women themselves when I tell them I seek a sweet, meek dove-like ingenue (kinda what we’d call a Maria Clara type), I’m told I’m looking for an extinct species. T_T

There’s also popular media to consider. Sure you have the likes of Robin Padilla, Cesar Montano, and perhaps Manny Pacquiao broadcasting the oh-so-manly Pinoy macho boy. However, I believe people have said that there actually hasn’t been a Filipino action flick in decades. My writing mentor who has connections with those in the local television industry has also told me that it’s actually been run by gay men (and hence, the over-dramatic and somewhat Marxist garbage I see on my TV every afternoon).

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, I am a foreigner.

But in times of transition, great transition and alot of soul searching…looking at the big picture…however change comes down to the local level…and back into the house.

Back later…you are getting colorful…like the Philippines…