Time to leave parish

[SemperFidelis]

And like all minorities, the traditions you hold fast to will also more then likely die out over the course of time.

Really, is that why these traditions died out in the seventies and eighties, when hardly anyone even paid attention to them, while everyone was concentrating on this new NO innovation? The so called “traditionalists” have come a long way since those days.

Seventh. Any forced attempt to restore the Latin Rite will be met with great opposition.

Actually, YOU are apart of the Latin Rite as well. The opposition to the TLM was far greater twenty years ago, but somehow it still survived. The opposition is getting smaller and smaller everyday, and the Pope is doing much to squash it. Look at how the TLM is growing. The FSSP, ICRSS, SSJC, CRNJ etc. are growing at enormous rates, and so are the old indult parishes. More and more Priestly societies are being formed all the time that offer only the 62’ Missal. It’s also interesting to note the SSPX is growing by leaps and bounds, in spite of the fact that most thought that Summorum Pontificum would lead to their downfall. Read all the good news coming from the news, blogs, etc. The TLM has “taken off” in Rome, and is doing likewise everywhere. I think the above quote is only what YOU want to believe. Clearly the Pope believes you are wrong as well.

Many priests will oppose this.

Yes, and many will not. The use of the TLM is growing whether you like it or not.

I will oppose it.

Good for you, but in the end, it’s not going to get you anywhere.

Why? The vast majority of American Catholics do not understand or comprehend Latin.

You don’t have to. I don’t understand Latin and get along just fine. That’s why there’s a Missal.

To sit thru an entire Mass and not being able to interpret the Latin will cause the mind to wander.

Actually I think it does the opposite. Go to a Mass in Latin, and you will find far more people actually paying attention than you do at your average Mass in English.

People will migrate toward Protestant churches where ENGLISH IS SPOKEN AND WHERE SCRIPTURE IS READ IN ENGLISH AND PRAYERS ARE DONE IN ENGLISH.

Really? You’d be interested to know then, that the Catholic Church had far more protestant converts prior to the Mass being in the vernacular, than it gets know. Also, there have been far more conversions from Catholicism to protestantism since the introduction of the NO. Maybe it’s because we have something different. The Catholic Church is the only one, true, Church. We don’t need novelties and innovations to keep up with the protestants, and history has proved that. Also Scripture is read in the vernacular at a TLM, and obviously the homily is in the vernacular as well.

Latin no longer has a place. It was dead 500 years ago. It’s even more dead now.

Really, that’s not what Vatican II said, maybe you should read it.

The English Mass is just the next logical step in the development of Tradition, just as the Douay Rheims was the next logical step.

The English Mass was also the next logical step in the 1200’s when hardly anyone spoke Latin. For some reason though, Mass in the vernacular took more than 800 years to “take off.” I think there’s a reason for that.

Or are you still so prideful of your Latin and Tridentine Traditions?

And as a Latin Rite Catholic, you should take pride in Latin as well. It you don’t remember it’s where you came from, and it’s YOUR heritage. Once again read Vatican II. Don’t come on here and berate good and faithful Catholics who happen to have an attachment to Latin. It’s childish. You are on the TRADITIONAL CATHOLICISM forum. If you don’t like what’s posted here, then stay away.

 

[markadm]

You don’'t sing/recite the “Glory to God in the highest” during the Mass? I have never seen one without it except during certain seasons.

I meant we don’t get it set to Gregorian Chant.

PeterDaRock: To make it clear to you, my preference for the TLM is not because it’s in Latin! As I said, I wouldn’t mind it in English. It is rather that, by and large, the TLM better expresses (by way of external aesthetic) the interior reality of what’s going on at Mass. That’s not to rule out Novus Ordo Masses (heaven forfend; I love them, when done well), but just rather to comment that most of the time the Novus Ordo Mass has become a debased shadow of what it ought to be.

 

[Joab_Anias]

I meant we don’t get it set to Gregorian Chant.

But it is Gregorian Chant even if you only read it.

That’s not to rule out Novus Ordo Masses (heaven forfend; I love them, when done well), but just rather to comment that most of the time the Novus Ordo Mass has become a debased shadow of what it ought to be.

If you ever have any question as to the rubrics of the Mass you can check them at:
GIRM
and
Canon

 

[Joab_Anias]

As explained on the World Youth Day web site

The Mass can be roughly divided into 4 sections which can be summed up in one word each:

Come - We come together in Mass as one Body, gathering before our Lord

Listen - Listening to the Bible readings, the Word of our Lord and Homily

Do - Praying and participating in the Eucharist, becoming One with Him

Go - The sendoff where we bring this message to all the world

Come

Entrance Procession: Priest, deacon, altar servers and lectors enter the church or designated place for celebration of the liturgy.

Entrance Hymn/Song or Gathering Hymn: The song/music which takes place during the entrance procession.

Veneration of the Altar: The reverencing of the altar with a kiss by the bishop or priest who presides at the service followed by the other bishops, priests and deacons, and the optional use of incense.

Greeting: The celebrant greets all present at the liturgy, announcing the presence of the Lord to the assembled community.

Penitential Rite: A general acknowledgment of sinfulness by the entire assembly, accompanied by requests for God’s mercy and forgiveness.

Gloria: Ancient hymn of praise to glorify God. It is used on all Sundays (outside of Advent and Lent) and solemn celebrations. The text originates from the Christmas narrative in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 2:14). (Primary place- emphasis mine)

Opening Prayer: This prayer by the celebrant expresses the general theme of the celebration.

Listen

Liturgy of the Word: The Liturgy of the Word consists of Scripture readings that are proclaimed and reflected upon. Usually, there are three readings

Responsorial Psalm: Between the first and second readings, a psalm is spoken or sung by the entire assembly. The response is repeated after each verse. If sung, a cantor or choir sings the verses of the psalm.

Alleluia Acclamation: This acclamation of praise to God follows the second reading and prepares the assembly for the Gospel.

Homily: The homily (sermon) is a reflection by the celebrant or other minister on the Scripture readings and the application of the texts in the daily lives of the assembled community.

continued…

 

[Joab_Anias]

Do

Profession of Faith: The assembly together recalls and proclaims the fundamental teachings of the Roman Catholic faith. The Profession of Faith, also referred to as the Creed, is used on all Sundays and Holy Days.

General Intercessions: Prayers of intercession for the Church, civil authorities, those with various needs and for the needs and salvation of the world. The celebrant invites all to pray, another minister proclaims the prayers of petition and the assembly responds by asking God to hear and to grant their requests.

Liturgy of the Eucharist: The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the section of the celebration when the gifts of bread and wine are prepared and the Eucharistic Prayer is proclaimed by the celebrant, and the Blessed Sacrament (Eucharist, Communion) is distributed to the assembly.

Preparation of the Gifts: The bread and wine to be used in the celebration are brought to the celebrant, usually by representatives of the faithful.

Offertory Hymn/Song: Music used during the presentation of gifts to the celebrant and as the altar is prepared for the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Washing of Hands: An expression of the desire for inward purification. The celebrant washes his hands in symbolic cleansing to prepare himself just as the gifts have been prepared as an offering to the Lord.

Prayer Over the Gifts: The prayer by the celebrant asking that the gifts to be offered be made holy and acceptable in the eyes of the Lord.

Preface Dialogue: The introductory dialogue between the celebrant and assembly in which all are invited to join in prayer and thanksgiving to God called the Sanctus or Holy, Holy, Holy. The community responds to the preface and continues the general theme of praise and thanks.

Eucharistic Prayer: The prayer of thanksgiving and sanctification. It is the center and high point of the celebration. During the Eucharistic Prayer, the Church believes that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Included in the Eucharistic Prayer are the:

Consecration: The prayer and blessing during which the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Memorial Acclamation: The Priest declares the mystery of faith and the congregation responds.

Intercessions: A series of prayers for the Church, the world, the Pope, clergy and laity, and the dead.

Final Doxology: A final prayer of praise of God.

Amen: Also called the Great Amen. It is the acclamation by the people expressing their agreement with all that has been said and done in the Eucharistic prayer.

The Lord 's Prayer (Our Father): The prayer of petition for our needs and forgiveness of our sins.

Doxology: The response of the people acclaiming the sovereignty of God.

Sign of Peace: Before sharing the Body of Christ the members of the assembly are invited to express their love and peace with one another, usually through shaking hands or a kiss.

Breaking of the Bread: The celebrant carries out the gestures of Christ at the Last Supper when he broke the bread to give to his disciples. The action signifies that in communion the many are made one in the one Bread of Life which is Christ.

Lamb of God (Agnus Dei):An invocation during the breaking of the bread in which the assembly petitions God for mercy and peace.

Holy Communion: After saying a preparatory prayer, the celebrant (or other designated ministers) gives communion (the consecrated bread and wine) to himself and the other ministers at the altar, and then communion is distributed to the congregation.

Communion Song: The music that is sung as the consecrated bread and wine - the Body and Blood of Christ - is distributed to the faithful.

Prayer After Communion: The final prayer by the celebrant in which he petitions that the Sacrament be beneficial for all.

Go

Concluding Rite: The brief rite which consists of the celebrant’s greeting to all present, final blessing and dismissal; followed by a concluding song and concluding procession.
source

Full text of the Mass in English and Latin

Biblical references for the Mass

Thanks to David McDonald for his web site.

 

[rosary_for_life]

Thanks for the encouragement!

If you do switch parishes, you’re definitely making the right choice!

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

If Joey does not mind, I will answer this, since I too am the Usher Coordinator at my Parish as well.

First of all it seems that your Parish on the surface may be very pathetic. It appears to be lacking a Pastoral Council, a Liturgical Council, and Time and Talent(Stewardship) Committee.

Your leaving will only make things worse over the course of time. Don’t be part of the problem by leaving, be part of the solution by staying and giving a **** about your parish.

I don’t have a problem with EMHC’s, I have a problem when the Sacristan has to run around to find 4 or 5 of them every Sunday.

It Appears you don’t have an EMHC coordinator who schedule people. Schedules are posted, mailed, and emailed. The same goes for Altar Servers, Greeters, Ushers, Gift Bearers, and the Elijah Cup.

It’s not like one or two, its a half dozen. The get 'em in get 'em out attitude is not about the EMHC’s. Its about how we make every effort to keep Mass at a neat 58 minutes. Sure we don’t want to go all day, but we don’t want to rush through the Liturgy, it makes it feel like an imposition rather than a gift…

That is your primary problem. You have let Satan put this idea in your mind that communion is nothing more than a cattle shute.

Let tell you of a visiting Priest that I encountered during a 4th Degree Knights Mass. The resident Priest was in Ireland on his annual vacation. The person pouring wine into the Cup only filled it 1/3 of the way. The Visiting Priest saw this and said. “Fill that cup to FULL. Jesus said DRINK not SIP. Sipping reduces the act to Protestant symbolism” Very strong testimony. After Mass I asked if I could pick his brain on what he had said to the lady. It said yes.

To boil it down:

He has to stand in front Jesus one day and account for every Mass he has said. I would be fearful to admit to Jesus that he let one person go home that wanted the precious blood but could not receive it because WE RAN OUT OF IT DURING COMMUNION. He also pointed out that he will refuse to concelebrate a Mass where wine is not served. Jesus said do this in remberance of me for both not just the bread. He said wine is cheap, souls are priceless.

What could be worse than running out of wine? Running out of the Precious Body?

You look at the Communion Procession and see a cattle shute at a fast food restaurant. You see the glass half empty.

I looke at the the same Communion Procession and see Pastoral Care at work. I see the needs of all Parishoners being met not just a few. I see the glass half full.

Flip flops, c’mon man. There is a difference between the only pair of shoes an Apostle had, and the mass market rubber foam things we have today. Besides, when a person is wearing flip flops, you can bet that they are not dressed as though they are about to meet their Saviour.

At the Second Coming, is Jesus going to care what you are wearing? Is Jesus that superficial? Is God that superficial?

It is an exterior sign of an interior disposition.

Personal opinion or fact?

It is not uncommon for me to see a parishioner impeccably dressed for work or dinner during the week, and in flip flops and shorts/blue jeans at Mass.

You are too absorbed with the speck in other’s eyes to the point that you have a huge plank labeled judmentalism in your own eye. Don’t worry what others are doing and wearing, worry about your own self. What others do is between them and God.

They disrespect GOd and those around them by making the Mass appear an imposition to their day off, a mere bump in their schedule.

Again, personal opinion or fact?

Ushers are as loud, if not more so, than the people talking.

Give the ushers a butt chewing and instruct them in what is proper.

And the priest usually is walking around, vested, before Mass and after, chit chatting also.

Chew the Priest’s butt even harsher. The Priest should know better. And don’t be afraid to put a Priest in his place. He is human just like you. I’ve put a Priest or 2 in their place and you can too.

My reasons for leaving go beyond the Mass, its goes to the prevailing attitude that nothing special exist in the Church.

Again, your personal opinion or fact?

The rest I will not comment on since you have gone into some hysterical rant mode.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Yes, and many will not. The use of the TLM is growing whether you like it or not.

I will believe that when it is implemented in the Montgomery, Prattville, Millbrook area.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Yes, and many will not. The use of the TLM is growing whether you like it or not.

Only because of the current Pope. I have never experienced a TLM. Did not even know what a TLM until I came to this forum… Been a Catholic since 1985 and have been to Mass in 48 states. Have not come across a TLM yet.

Popes will from now on as did in the past come and go. They will elect old farts that will not stay in office long.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Good for you, but in the end, it’s not going to get you anywhere.

And it will not you anywhere if you don’t oppose it.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Really, that’s not what Vatican II said, maybe you should read it.

I have. It does not negate the REALITY that Latin is dead.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Thanks for the encouragement!

Its misplaced.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Really? You’d be interested to know then, that the Catholic Church had far more protestant converts prior to the Mass being in the vernacular, than it gets know.

That was before the flood of High Powered Evangelists.

Also, there have been far more conversions from Catholicism to protestantism since the introduction of the NO.

That is because of the High Powered Evangelists that came onto the scene after 1965 and not because of the NO.

Maybe it’s because we have something different. The Catholic Church is the only one, true, Church. We don’t need novelties and innovations to keep up with the protestants, and history has proved that. Also Scripture is read in the vernacular at a TLM, and obviously the homily is in the vernacular as well.

The TLM could be considered a novelty.

How many Parishes my tri-county area.

Holy Spirit.
St Bedes
Queen of Mercy
St Peters
Resurrection
St Josephs
Our Lady Of Guadalupe(mine)

None of these have ever had a regularly scheduled TLM in my 22 year history as a Catholic. And for that matter I can’t remember them ever offering one.

How many Parishes are in Tuscaloosa?

BTW RTR!

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

The English Mass was also the next logical step in the 1200’s when hardly anyone spoke Latin. For some reason though, Mass in the vernacular took more than 800 years to “take off.” I think there’s a reason for that.

That’s an easy one. People are reluctant to change. For the same reason the Church did not see the need for reform until an idiot name Martin Luther threaten the lively hood of the Church. Even then it took a while for them to get off their fat laurels and do something about it.

It is similar to the Vista issue right now.

 

[chotock]

Parable of the Wedding Feast, remember to read the literal and allergorical as the Church teaches us. Not to mention all the regulations God placed on the Israelites on exactly how they should dress in the Temple, how the priests should be vested, and how bout all the laws concerning bringing only the best before God? Obvisouly God is concerned with how we present ourselves.

We have a Pastoral Council, just added some new folks actually.
We have a Liturgy Commitee, and a full-time Liturgist.
We have coordinators coming out our ears, but that is no guarantee that people show up every week.

The Gloria, as all the Ordinaries have been set to Gregorian and Plain Chant, but they have also been manipulated by Haugen and Haas, and they did not use Gregorian.

If people do not get to partake of the cup, they are still getting the full Christ (body blood soul and divinity) in the Host, otherwise no one received Christ for 1500 years or so.

PEter, you are exactly like the people who are pushing me away from my parish, you are caught up in this coddling huggie huggie type approach to faith.

You are telling me to stay and continue to suffer through all of this as if my Spiritual wellbeing should be an after thought. Thank you for helping me to solidify my decision to leave.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

We have a Pastoral Council, just added some new folks actually.
We have a Liturgy Commitee, and a full-time Liturgist.
We have coordinators coming out our ears, but that is no guarantee that people show up every week.

Then they are doing **** poor job.

I need four Ushers each Sunday. I schedule Five.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

The Gloria, as all the Ordinaries have been set to Gregorian and Plain Chant, but they have also been manipulated by Haugen and Haas, and they did not use Gregorian.

What is up with all this hype about Gregorian Chant?

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

If people do not get to partake of the cup, they are still getting the full Christ (body blood soul and divinity) in the Host, otherwise no one received Christ for 1500 years or so.

That is true and I agree.

But that is not the issue. The issue is whether it is being done as Christ did it. This is also a personal preference and one that I personally hold fast to.

My personal opinion is this, those churches that do not provide the “Precious Blood of Christ” are also guilty of this “Fast Food Restaurant & Cattle Shute” mentality.

Eliminating the Cup from the equation, makes the process that much quicker.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

PEter, you are exactly like the people who are pushing me away from my parish, you are caught up in this coddling huggie huggie type approach to faith.

What was it the Jesus commanded?

Oh yes, “LOVE ONE ANOTHER”. And I don’t think Jesus put any qualifiers or restrictions on that commandment.

Communion is not solely about the Eucharist. It is also about the fellowship with one another.

Taking the coddling and hugging away out of the Mass reduces the person to an automaton who just shows up and goes thru the scripted ritual.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

You are telling me to stay and continue to suffer through all of this as if my Spiritual wellbeing should be an after thought.

Maybe it is God’s calling that you offer this suffering up to Him just as St Paul did. Suffering is an intricate process of the path of Salvation. I am sure you are the aware of the Protestant’s mentality on Suffering?

Thank you for helping me to solidify my decision to leave.

Don’t thank me. I’ve done nothing. You are taking the cowards way out and Satan is rejoicing in your decision to leave.

I would advise you to stay and try and make a difference. But you have to make some judgement calls about what you are complaining about. Are these complaints personal opinion or they fact?