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markadm
Guest
Gosh. Really? I had never thought of it that way.
I wonder what the older rationale was for not distributing the Chalice?
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I wonder what the older rationale was for not distributing the Chalice?
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Adonis33
Guest
He didn’t say LOVE ON ONE ANOTHER. The main reason to go to mass is to recieve the body and blood of Christ. Without the Eurcharist there is no mass.What was it the Jesus commanded?
Oh yes, “LOVE ONE ANOTHER”. And I don’t think Jesus put any qualifiers or restrictions on that commandment.
Communion is not solely about the Eucharist. It is also about the fellowship with one another.
Taking the coddling and hugging away out of the Mass reduces the person to an automaton who just shows up and goes thru the scripted ritual.
The coddling and hugging is eyewash. Some people like it - and some people don’t (I personally don’t - that’s why I attend a TLM). The fellowship should happen either before mass - or after mass. During mass your focus should be soley on our Lord, not each other. That is what Parish Hall’s are for.
I find it peculiar that at our TLM - there is no hugging and kissing and all that touchy feely stuff - yet we have a thriving and growing parish - that has many community events (piligrimages, festivals, dinners etc…). Many of us has known each other for 20 plus years - and are like family.
I am in no way critisizing the NO parishes. I have visited many where they have a great community. The last one I visited was an Anglican Use parish (again, no touchy-feely) that has one of the fastest growing prishes in our area.
The idea that we have to turn our mass into some sort of love fest in order to have this feeling of community is nonsense.
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Silver_Thread
Guest
It is aesthetic. The Latin language is a romantic language. The Mass sounds more beautiful in Latin then in English. The Mass in Latin makes the Mass more mystical.
Good.
That is the key. It means something. It means something to you or the Cradle Catholic. It does not mean anything to most converts because all we have known is the English version and that is our Tradition.
You are basing your opinion on what God cares about based solely on your own preconcieved notions and ideas of what reverence is. There is no writings within the Bible or the ECF that indicate such.
The reverence is based solely on personal opinion not any thing physical substantial.
You and others are exhibiting the exact same behavior as our Protestant brethren that have grown and be acclimatized to certain preconcieved notions and ideas. Reverence is relative to the mind of the beholder.
I personally take communion on the Tongue. There are those that dislike EOMs, in which I am one. You probably dislike EOMs as well. Preconcieved ideas and notions based on how you were raised as a Catholic? EOMs serve a purpose. You may not like or condone that purpose, but the purpose is there. You traditions tell you to dislike it even though it is causing strife and dvision against that which Jesus created…sound familiar?
Yes it is a fair complaint, but his other complaints are not.
"To destroy a Religion, you must first sever it's traditions". Sorry Joey, if your a convert, your tradition is the tradition of the the Catholic Church. You may not be aware of it. but you are in error to think that your personal experiences are the sum total of Catholic Tradition. I don't pretend to be aware of the sum total of Tradition, but in the TLM, I can experience the beauty of a Liturgy handed on to me by my ancestors with loving care. I will not turn my back on them and I will do my best to hand it on to the next generation out of the same love it was given to me. The strife and division was caused by those liberals who try to destroy Sacred Tradition. Liberalism by one definition is a mental disorder wherein the illogical becomes completely logical with no lasting effect on the conscience. God Bless!
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stmaria
Guest
Only because of the current Pope. I have never experienced a TLM. Did not even know what a TLM until I came to this forum… Been a Catholic since 1985 and have been to Mass in 48 states. Have not come across a TLM yet.
Is this what you consider Pope Benedict? You should be ashamed but from your tone on this thread I am sure that you will not be. Your problem is that you have never experienced the Traditional Mass. The Mass experienced by over 200 Popes and countless martyrs and saints. It will be here till the end of time.Popes will from now on as did in the past come and go. **They will elect old farts **
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palmas85
Guest
Because many people thought that communion was incomplete unless you received under both species and the Church wanted to drive home the fact that receiving under one species was totally sufficient. A second reason was that abuses were occuring that were sacriligious and profaned the Precious blood. That was also the reason they went to receiving on the tongue, to combat the same sort of abuses and sacriligious behavior towards the eucharist that were becoming commonplace…Gosh. Really? I had never thought of it that way.
I wonder what the older rationale was for not distributing the Chalice?
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ElizaCatherine
Guest
I have started a reply to this thread several times and have not posted it, but now I feel like this thread has turned into something the OP never intended. I am in a situation where we am leaving a parish and the diocese because we feel like our eternal souls are at risk. We are perfectly happy to attend NO mass. This is not about TLM vs NO. This is about my spouse and I getting each other to heaven!
We do not believe that we can do this effectively in this parish/diocese. We are bombarded with music that was commissioned for this baptist church or that methodist church or even secular music! We welcome people to mass at our “community”. Never even a mention of being Catholic. People do not genuflect in the presence of Our Lord, and they allow their children to play on the altar. They dress immodestly and as if they are going to the beach rather than to meet their Creator. I can understand jeans on occasion, I can even deal with kids dressed for their soccer game, etc. but I have an issue with dress that leaves little to the imagination. We have 50 minutes for Confession available once a week, and there are usually less than 15 people there.
We have talked with the priest about our concerns, and he seems to be perfectly content with things the way they are. Oh, I do think he wishes some things were different, but I doubt that he is willing to do the work or to deal with the complaints from the people who think they are in charge. Matter of fact, rather than change anything in this parish he told us that we needed to “get over” being from another city and start filling our cup from this diocese, and then even went to far as to suggest that we would be happier in another parish. We serve on a number of committees and coordinate a couple of programs. It’s not like we just showed up and started raising concerns. We tried to get involved and help encourage change (for the better), but after two years of this it is time for us to go. I would fully support the OP in a decision to leave if the situation is anything like this.
We do not believe that we can do this effectively in this parish/diocese. We are bombarded with music that was commissioned for this baptist church or that methodist church or even secular music! We welcome people to mass at our “community”. Never even a mention of being Catholic. People do not genuflect in the presence of Our Lord, and they allow their children to play on the altar. They dress immodestly and as if they are going to the beach rather than to meet their Creator. I can understand jeans on occasion, I can even deal with kids dressed for their soccer game, etc. but I have an issue with dress that leaves little to the imagination. We have 50 minutes for Confession available once a week, and there are usually less than 15 people there.
We have talked with the priest about our concerns, and he seems to be perfectly content with things the way they are. Oh, I do think he wishes some things were different, but I doubt that he is willing to do the work or to deal with the complaints from the people who think they are in charge. Matter of fact, rather than change anything in this parish he told us that we needed to “get over” being from another city and start filling our cup from this diocese, and then even went to far as to suggest that we would be happier in another parish. We serve on a number of committees and coordinate a couple of programs. It’s not like we just showed up and started raising concerns. We tried to get involved and help encourage change (for the better), but after two years of this it is time for us to go. I would fully support the OP in a decision to leave if the situation is anything like this.
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daniel_connolly
Guest
Is it just me or is it true that none of these gross and insane abuses were happening when we all observed the ‘Traditional’ Mass in the Latin Rite???
When I saw a sixty foot puppet- of a muslim- in my Cathedral, I hit the road. What can that possibly have to do with Catholicism and spreading the One, True and Apostolic Faith to the World? I’m still scratching my head…
It’s painful to bail on a parish- unless that parish is the cause of your spiritual emptiness. Then getting out could be a great joy.
Tu solus Altissimus, Jesu Christe
When I saw a sixty foot puppet- of a muslim- in my Cathedral, I hit the road. What can that possibly have to do with Catholicism and spreading the One, True and Apostolic Faith to the World? I’m still scratching my head…
It’s painful to bail on a parish- unless that parish is the cause of your spiritual emptiness. Then getting out could be a great joy.
Tu solus Altissimus, Jesu Christe
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Peter_Da_Rock
Guest
What is the message the Cardinals are sending when you elect someone that is way past age of retirement and is past the age when most Popes have died?Is this what you consider Pope Benedict? You should be ashamed but from your tone on this thread I am sure that you will not be. Your problem is that you have never experienced the Traditional Mass. The Mass experienced by over 200 Popes and countless martyrs and saints. It will be here till the end of time.
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rosary_for_life
Guest
How so?
Its misplaced.
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chotock
Guest
Guided by the Holy Spirit!What is the message the Cardinals are sending when you elect someone that is way past age of retirement and is past the age when most Popes have died?
This just made my day, and let me know that there are still some people who get it.
**This is not about TLM vs NO. This is about my spouse and I getting each other to heaven!
** thank you Eliza and i will pray for you and your husband
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Peter_Da_Rock
Guest
You really believe a Roman Catholic Parish could cause you to lose your salvation?This is about my spouse and I getting each other to heaven!
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Joab_Anias
Guest
Because I know it’s an ultra traditionalist view that is critical of the place that God has led the Church to through the guidance of the Holy Spirit of all truth. There are some who are confused by traditionalism that they then use it to justify, discord, schism, failing to carry ones cross or to criticize any change in the Church.How so?
We all have a cross to bear. Sometimes that cross is the plank in our own eye. Sometimes its persecution and at other times it’s the dark night of the soul.
In the case of parish hopping more often than not it’s a result of thinking of self as more Catholic than the Church. We are never called to focus on the faults of others around us unless God puts us in a pastoral role and then only with the Mercy of the Lord. Otherwise were not focusing on God and our own faults as we should. Its pride that leads one to become self righteous and judge the actions of the Church in their own opinion. Jesus said to judge not lest you yourself be judged likewise.
Changing parishes is a serious matter; sometimes of God but I think more often not. Only if one really wants to know Gods will about such a matter will they seek out the most efficacious choice in submission to Gods will for them. I have done both. I only experienced growth when I stuck it out and worked to remove focus from the spec in my brother’s eye and began to divert it to my own faults and on to Jesus himself.
The whole congregation can fall apostate around you but if the sacraments are licit and your focused humbly and intently on a relationship with Jesus you will work with and appreciate the super abundant graces available through the state in life God has placed you which in turn will bring great contentment and peace.
That being said we may fall and make mistakes. The Lord knows this too and uses them as paving stones toward His end which is our unity with Him. He can draw good from evil and make straight paths from crooked lines. God never asks us to bear more than we can handle. If we fail to bear it, it’s not because we weren’t able but because we choose to give up/despair. Despair and confusion or self-righteousness is never of God.
If one has a God guided change in state of life then there are good and wholesome reasons to change parishes. Being disgruntled is a selfish one. Otherwise were just giving up and not trusting in Gods promises that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, that it will be led into all truth, that were are all a part of it and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
We have choices to make everyday. Jesus always chose our Fathers will no matter how hard it was. Even unto death on the cross. I can understand not feeling fed. If that is the case then expecting that out of the parish may be unrealistic and one may be experiencing a calling to pray more, go on a retreat or get involved in other ways.
Peace.
R
rosary_for_life
Guest
It’s not only the ultra-traditionalists rejecting the NO that’s the problem, it’s also the ultra-modernists rejecting the TLM. The Church accepts both forms as two rites of the same mass, and so faithful Catholics should embrace both.Because I know it’s an ultra traditionalist view that is critical of the place that God has led the Church to through the guidance of the Holy Spirit of all truth. There are some who are confused by traditionalism that they then use it to justify, discord, schism, failing to carry ones cross or to criticize any change in the Church.
We all have a cross to bear. Sometimes that cross is the plank in our own eye. Sometimes its persecution and at other times it’s the dark night of the soul.
In the case of parish hopping more often than not it’s a result of thinking of self as more Catholic than the Church. We are never called to focus on the faults of others around us unless God puts us in a pastoral role and then only with the Mercy of the Lord. Otherwise were not focusing on God and our own faults as we should. Its pride that leads one to become self righteous and judge the actions of the Church in their own opinion. Jesus said to judge not lest you yourself be judged likewise.
Parish hopping for no good reason can be problematic, as you suggest. Switching parishes to change from one rite to another is not frivolous. I believe it all depends on the reasons of the individual.
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dranzal
Guest
OP, do you feel at all that the Holy Spirit my be trying to use you as an instrument of change for the better?
Our parish is somewhere in the middle. It is solidly Novus Ordo. It is a new parish and is still in its formative years. I have had some success getting the choir leader at the liturgy we attend to consider older hymns and Latin Mass parts. We make a point to express our appreciation to the powers that be whenever there are only altar boys.
I often consider that we Catholics like to say that Martin Luther should have stayed in the Church and tried to effect change from within rather than starting off on his own.
Our parish is somewhere in the middle. It is solidly Novus Ordo. It is a new parish and is still in its formative years. I have had some success getting the choir leader at the liturgy we attend to consider older hymns and Latin Mass parts. We make a point to express our appreciation to the powers that be whenever there are only altar boys.
I often consider that we Catholics like to say that Martin Luther should have stayed in the Church and tried to effect change from within rather than starting off on his own.
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Pious_Mat
Guest
I forget who it was, but a particularly well-regarded person once said that the only way to stop liberal, unorthodox parishes dead in their tracks is to stop attending Mass there and supporting them, in favour of a more traditional parish.
I think this is the tactic that we often try to use with SSPXers–come to Mass with the Fraternity of Saint Peter, celebrate the Old Rite, and remain loyal to the Pontiff. If their numbers begin to shrink, their movement will eventually run out of steam.
As to the OP in particular, God Bless you for having the courage to stand up for God’s True Church and what is important. I hope that everyone else joins in me in pray for you.
I think this is the tactic that we often try to use with SSPXers–come to Mass with the Fraternity of Saint Peter, celebrate the Old Rite, and remain loyal to the Pontiff. If their numbers begin to shrink, their movement will eventually run out of steam.
As to the OP in particular, God Bless you for having the courage to stand up for God’s True Church and what is important. I hope that everyone else joins in me in pray for you.
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James_Patrick
Guest
I was on my parish finance committee and building committee when our pastor decided that the Tabernacle should be removed from the altar and placed in a separate room alongside but completely out of sight. He claimed this was a Vatican II decision and cited other parishes as well as being in “conformance” with this concept. I wrote him a letter voicing concern that the sacredness of our church was being greatly diminished and the church was being reduced to a mere “meeting hall”. The change went through and we left the parish and are started attending a neighboring one - which, ironically, went through the same Tabernacle change itself. We had been in the first church for over 34 years and it was extremely painful so we are staying in the second (changed) church. I even wrote the same type letter to the second church’s pastor with similar ineffectiveness. I am still greatly distressed about both events. We have never made any vindictive statements about these decisions or about our pastors. We just think that it is very, very wrong to denigrate the Tabernacle holding the Body and Blood of our Lord by removing it from the people sight. Am I wrong to have done this?
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CatQuilt
Guest
Welcome to CA! No, you weren’t wrong to write the letter (twice)! The only problem is that one may feel frustrated if their request is ignored.
It is a shame that they’ve done that. I hope you can find peace with the decision.
It is a shame that they’ve done that. I hope you can find peace with the decision.
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SemperFidelis
Guest
It’s already started about two hours from Prattville at St. Charles Borromeo every Sunday in Jacksonville. There is something in the works for Central Alabama too. Read here:I will believe that when it is implemented in the Montgomery, Prattville, Millbrook area.
unavocecentralalabama.org/
or here for Northern Alabama:
unavocenorthernalabama.blogspot.com/
Everything comes, in due time. For a Mass that has been supressed for so long, you can’t just snap your fingers and have it offered in every area, every day. There have been big strides made here in Northern Alabama. Central Alabama’s Chapter just got established. I predict it won’t be too long. Read this thread to get a scope of how many TLM’s have been added in the last two months in America (and this isn’t even all of them):
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=177324
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SemperFidelis
Guest
What? I’m not going to get anywhere if I don’t oppose it? Well then, there are a whole lot of people (and more and more every day) who aren’t going anywhere too! Maybe you should tell them that, and tell the Pope that while you’re at it too.And it will not you anywhere if you don’t oppose it.
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SemperFidelis
Guest
Well, unlike you then, I’d rather abide by what the Council actually says. Latin is a dead language, but not in the sense you think it is. The “no Latin thing” is a fad, and one that has been found wanting by many. It won’t last.I have. It does not negate the REALITY that Latin is dead.
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