Time's Up in the U.S.: Catholic Business Owners Weigh Moral Options in HHS Mandate

[RobbyS]

I agree it’s a terrible choice. Cooperate with evil or forgo one’s livelihood. If they all go out of business (or are forced out of business by the government) people lose jobs and the economy suffers. If they cooperate with evil the economy will still suffer and evil grows. If Catholic institutions close down, the economy suffers. I think the administration is more concerned with imposing its will than with the economy.

Probably right. The bishops ignored the clear intent of the Obama administration when it was pushing health care, which was to move to a health care system entirely under the control of the central government. This will not come about all at once as did the British NHS. Obamacare is a huge mess, and no one knew how it will work out in the end, but of course, the administration never cared a fig about Catholic interests. The turning point, psychologically was the Notre Dame incident, which moved to Obama that the Church could be used as a pawn to get what it wanted, provided that the life issues could be dodged. By refusing to look at how much power the act gave to the Secretary, and trying to narrow its opposition to the abortion issue, the Church found itself split. Of course the Church has been split for many years, perhaps all the way back to the 1960s.

 

[cerad2]

What subsidies specifically?

Tax exemptions for starters. Zoning and health code exemptions. Etc.

 

[JimG]

Are folks seriously suggesting that large Catholic businesses such as churches should give up their federal subsidies? That’s just bizarre.

It doesn’t matter if they give up federal subsidies or not. The key is that, to comply with the HHS mandate, they must give up their Catholicism, whether or not they get any federal money.

Some will apostasize. They’ll give up their Catholicism. Some, I hope, won’t.

Private employers–Catholic, Evangelical, or other–who find the mandate violates their conscience, will face the same dilemma: Violate their conscience, pay fines, go out of business.

 

[buffalo]

Tax exemptions for starters. Zoning and health code exemptions. Etc.

Ahh that is what I thought. So you advocate revoking tax exemptions for all non-profits? or just churches?

 

[Donnie_Schenck]

There is hope for the Church in the United States! I believe that the Holy Father’s recent legislation is truly an act of divine providence for us, because it says that parish priests will be encouraged by their bishops to establish a Caritas, or parish-based “charitable agency.” Our Charities will NOT be closed down because of this government attack; rather, they will multiply and even become more localized! Individuals and Employers will NOT be left with unconscionable health coverage as their only option, because they will be able to look to their own parish communities for assistance in times of need, just like it was in the early days of the church, when the ministry of the diaconate was first instituted!

Also, another important sign of hope with the new Papal legislation is that Small Christian Communities, as “charitable associations” moderated by the parish priest, will be an opportunity for families to assist one another directly, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit to perform the Works of Mercy for individuals in need.

As for the crippling fines for obeying one’s conscience, which are unjust and therefore must not be paid, they are an opportunity to give witness by a kind of martyrdom. But when the IRS finally steps in, to liquidate the bank accounts of faithful Catholics, they will find them mostly empty, their contents having been “laid at the feet of the Apostles” and invested into the Works of Mercy performed by the Church.

 

[SuperLuigi]

1. The article you have linked was written before the election. Do you have a new one?
2. Like I said before, if they expect Catholic small business owners to do this, they’d better not be bluffing.
3. If it’s legal, the health-sharing thing will replace insurance, but the employer will still have to drop the employee’s regular coverage and pay a $2000 per person per year fine if they do that. This could be one possible tool, again, if it’s legal. But it won’t stop managers from having to optimize in other ways too. $2000 per person per year is a hefty fine.

I don’t think the bishops are bluffing. The left will circulate the nonsense that over 90% of Catholic women use contraception (it simply isn’t true) and that because some Catholics do not follow their faith and still commit mortal sin by taking Communion it’s really all okay because that means most Americans agree that we have to pay for someone else’s sex life.

The bishops meant what they said in the UK, Massachusetts and Illinois over so-called “gay marriage” and they mean it now.

 

[iloveangels]

There is hope for the Church in the United States! I believe that the Holy Father’s recent legislation is truly an act of divine providence for us, because it says that parish priests will be encouraged by their bishops to establish a Caritas, or parish-based “charitable agency.” Our Charities will NOT be closed down because of this government attack; rather, they will multiply and even become more localized! Individuals and Employers will NOT be left with unconscionable health coverage as their only option, because they will be able to look to their own parish communities for assistance in times of need, just like it was in the early days of the church, when the ministry of the diaconate was first instituted!

Also, another important sign of hope with the new Papal legislation is that Small Christian Communities, as “charitable associations” moderated by the parish priest, will be an opportunity for families to assist one another directly, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit to perform the Works of Mercy for individuals in need.

As for the crippling fines for obeying one’s conscience, which are unjust and therefore must not be paid, they are an opportunity to give witness by a kind of martyrdom. But when the IRS finally steps in, to liquidate the bank accounts of faithful Catholics, they will find them mostly empty, their contents having been “laid at the feet of the Apostles” and invested into the Works of Mercy performed by the Church.

I believe you’ve misunderstood the motu proprio. The kinds of things you propose in your first 2 paragraphs have always been possible, yet Catholics don’t do these things, probably because most of them don’t want to.

And as far as your last paragraph, I don’t really think you understand how the fines will be assessed. Your bravado is touching, but that’s not going to work.

 

[iloveangels]

I don’t think the bishops are bluffing. The left will circulate the nonsense that over 90% of Catholic women use contraception (it simply isn’t true) and that because some Catholics do not follow their faith and still commit mortal sin by taking Communion it’s really all okay because that means most Americans agree that we have to pay for someone else’s sex life.

The bishops meant what they said in the UK, Massachusetts and Illinois over so-called “gay marriage” and they mean it now.

Catholics don’t understand how things are set up in the Church. That’s the problem. I don’t think most Catholics will be able to tell the difference if they do bluff. And I think they know that.

 

[iloveangels]

It doesn’t matter if they give up federal subsidies or not. The key is that, to comply with the HHS mandate, they must give up their Catholicism, whether or not they get any federal money. Some will apostasize. They’ll give up their Catholicism. Some, I hope, won’t.

Jim, you’ve kind of got it all mixed up here. What happened is that most of these hospitals, universities and so on were founded by religious congregations in their glory days years ago. But due to all the things that have happened in the Church and the culture, those congregations are dying out. Members of those congregations stopped working in these places and got interested in other things, as they aged. Now members of those congregations are really old or gone–the average age of sisters in the US is 76 years old, you realize. They can’t work anymore. So, these hospitals/universities/etc were turned into non-profits with lay boards who pay the surviving religious retirement money. These things are NOT attached to dioceses. These things are independent businesses with lay boards, who may or may not be Catholic. The CHURCH does NOT own them. So, what does this mean?

1. The bishop can’t just tell them what to do. They do as they see fit. You’ve seen ample evidence of this at major “catholic” universities in the last couple of years.
2. They make their money the same way all other universities do: tuition, grants for research, federal subsidies, etc etc. They are not directly dependent on the Church for money and haven’t been for decades.
3. They use the Church as a recruitment tool because they have not yet been told they can’t. The Church feels loss and is loathe to cut them off, no matter what they do. Again, the nonsense at universities in the past couple of years provides an example.

The problem is that we have all this stuff that USED TO BE Catholic that we don’t want to let go of, and nobody to staff it if we don’t hire non-Catholics, and nobody to pay for it unless we use grant money. But we still think of this stuff as ours, even when it doesn’t behave like a Catholic institution. But are they?? Really?? That’s the problem.

Now, it may be the case that the USCCB can convince these places to toe the Church’s line on abortion and birth control, but frankly I’d consider that a miracle. I don’t think it’s going to happen. I suspect that these places are going to declare themselves no longer Catholic institutions and comply with Obamacare. I could be wrong; I hope I’m wrong, but I doubt it. I have no idea what the bishops are going to say about this or whether they will cave in at any point over this. We shall see.

Private employers–Catholic, Evangelical, or other–who find the mandate violates their conscience, will face the same dilemma: Violate their conscience, pay fines, go out of business.

This has been covered in other threads pretty well. I really don’t think this is about small private businesses owned by Catholics.

 

[iloveangels]

There are really three parts to this:

1. the big “catholic” institutions, like hospitals & universities, etc.
2. the small private businesses run by Catholic owners
3. the diocesan structure, including parishes.

We’ve talked about #1 & #2, but stuff is also going to happen at #3, the diocesan & parish levels, too. The effects of Obamacare will be interesting for #3 also, although generally in small dioceses at least, less intrusive. In big dioceses where there are a lot of diocesan programs, religious congregations and so on, it’s going to be more interesting.

Just for background, you need to realize that there are really 2 big wings to the Church, one much bigger than the other. The big one is this social service wing we keep coming back to–#1. The smaller side is the religion itself, the parish and diocesan structure that you all associate with Church. #1 has been threatening to overwhelm & eat #3 for some time. Obamacare is going to have interesting consequences because #1 is going to get trimmed.

 

[JimG]

Jim, you’ve kind of got it all mixed up here. What happened is that most of these hospitals, universities and so on were founded by religious congregations in their glory days years ago. But due to all the things that have happened in the Church and the culture, those congregations are dying out. Members of those congregations stopped working in these places and got interested in other things, as they aged. Now members of those congregations are really old or gone–the average age of sisters in the US is 76 years old, you realize. They can’t work anymore. So, these hospitals/universities/etc were turned into non-profits with lay boards who pay the surviving religious retirement money. These things are NOT attached to dioceses. These things are independent businesses with lay boards, who may or may not be Catholic. The CHURCH does NOT own them. So, what does this mean?

1. The bishop can’t just tell them what to do. They do as they see fit. You’ve seen ample evidence of this at major “catholic” universities in the last couple of years.
2. They make their money the same way all other universities do: tuition, grants for research, federal subsidies, etc etc. They are not directly dependent on the Church for money and haven’t been for decades.
3. They use the Church as a recruitment tool because they have not yet been told they can’t. The Church feels loss and is loathe to cut them off, no matter what they do. Again, the nonsense at universities in the past couple of years provides an example.

The problem is that we have all this stuff that USED TO BE Catholic that we don’t want to let go of, and nobody to staff it if we don’t hire non-Catholics, and nobody to pay for it unless we use grant money. But we still think of this stuff as ours, even when it doesn’t behave like a Catholic institution. But are they?? Really?? That’s the problem.

Now, it may be the case that the USCCB can convince these places to toe the Church’s line on abortion and birth control, but frankly I’d consider that a miracle. I don’t think it’s going to happen. I suspect that these places are going to declare themselves no longer Catholic institutions and comply with Obamacare. I could be wrong; I hope I’m wrong, but I doubt it. I have no idea what the bishops are going to say about this or whether they will cave in at any point over this. We shall see.

This has been covered in other threads pretty well. I really don’t think this is about small private businesses owned by Catholics.

Yes, I agree with what you say about large Catholic hospitals. They by and large are not owned by the diocese. That wasn’t my point.

My point was the public funding has nothing whatever to do with the HHS mandate. Whether institutions receive federal funding is immaterial. If they wish to be Catholic, they cannot comply with the mandate. If they wish to comply with the mandate, they must cease to be Catholic.

And by cease to be Catholic, I don’t simply mean, not be affiliated with the Church; I mean, they will have to reject Catholic teachings.

The same will apply to private employers, who may have more conscience than we give them credit for.

And in my diocese, we have a lot of young sisters.

 

[iloveangels]

Yes, I agree with what you say about large Catholic hospitals. They by and large are not owned by the diocese. That wasn’t my point.

My point was the public funding has nothing whatever to do with the HHS mandate. Whether institutions receive federal funding is immaterial. If they wish to be Catholic, they cannot comply with the mandate. If they wish to comply with the mandate, they must cease to be Catholic.

The public funding is necessary for the big institutions to operate, and at the same time it makes them even more independent of the Church. They are now so independent of the Church that they don’t see any need to obey the authorities of the Catholic Church. This is why the funding matters. As long as they are funded publicly, and they employ many non-Catholics, and have many non-Catholic clients, they’re not particularly Catholic and they know that, even if for recruitment purposes, they don’t say that out loud. And knowing that they serve the general population, rather than the Church, drives their behavior.

And by cease to be Catholic, I don’t simply mean, not be affiliated with the Church; I mean, they will have to reject Catholic teachings.

In practice…Same thing. If they’re not affiliated with the Church, there will be no reason to pay millions of dollars of fines over this. And they know that. It’s going to drive a lot of behaviors this year.

The same will apply to private employers, who may have more conscience than we give them credit for.

NO, the situation is quite different.

And in my diocese, we have a lot of young sisters.

I’m glad you have a “lot” of young Catholic sisters, whatever a “lot” is, but that doesn’t change the history of the Catholic Church in this country. It is what it is.

 

[JimG]

So, you are saying that because they are big institutions, they don’t want to pay the fines. I agree. Nobody wants to pay the fines. Why should anyone have to violate their conscience in order to exist as an institution or a business?

Would the same considerations apply if the HHS mandates abortion coverage or euthanasia coverage next?

Every employer, I presume, will break with evil at some point.

At least, I hope they will.

 

[iloveangels]

So, you are saying that because they are big institutions, they don’t want to pay the fines. I agree. Nobody wants to pay the fines. Why should anyone have to violate their conscience in order to exist as an institution or a business?

NO. I’m saying that there is no reason for some of them to pay the fines because they are going to go along with Obamacare. You’ll know who “some of them” are soon. Some of them have announced their intentions publicly already in fact. These places serve the general population and they know that. They are no longer really affiliated with the Church, although for recruitment purposes they don’t like to say that because it’s bad for business.

Would the same considerations apply if the HHS mandates abortion coverage or euthanasia coverage next?

Yes. BTW, the real issue with Obamacare is PRECISELY abortion coverage. Political entities and the press were making it out to be birth control because they know that people are more approving of that. But it’s really about abortion.

Every employer, I presume, will break with evil at some point.
At least, I hope they will.

It depends on how they define evil, I suppose. At any rate, things that are not Catholic, are not going to be bound to Catholic doctrine and teaching simply because they don’t recognize it as being a driver of their behavior. That’s just reality.

 

[JimG]

NO. I’m saying that there is no reason for some of them to pay the fines because they are going to go along with Obamacare. You’ll know who “some of them” are soon. Some of them have announced their intentions publicly already in fact. These places serve the general population and they know that. They are no longer really affiliated with the Church, although for recruitment purposes they don’t like to say that because it’s bad for business.

Yes. BTW, the real issue with Obamacare is PRECISELY abortion coverage. Political entities and the press were making it out to be birth control because they know that people are more approving of that. But it’s really about abortion.

It depends on how they define evil, I suppose. At any rate, things that are not Catholic, are not going to be bound to Catholic doctrine and teaching simply because they don’t recognize it as being a driver of their behavior. That’s just reality.

Exactly. They are going to go along with Obamacare, including cooperating with the evil embodied in the mandate. That’s their decision. But I won’t pretend that they have not caved in to evil.

Yes, Catholics don’t always put their Faith into practice. And if a business is run by non-Catholics for whom the mandate is not an issue, I can understand it caving in to the mandate. But for a Catholic manager or business owner, there is the problem of cooperating with evil.

 

[iloveangels]

Exactly. They are going to go along with Obamacare, including cooperating with the evil embodied in the mandate. That’s their decision. But I won’t pretend that they have not caved in to evil.

Yes, Catholics don’t always put their Faith into practice. And if a business is run by non-Catholics for whom the mandate is not an issue, I can understand it caving in to the mandate. But for a Catholic manager or business owner, there is the problem of cooperating with evil.

You seem to be sorta stuck on thinking of everything as the same thing.
Up til this year, carrying any old kind of insurance wasn’t an issue for private business owners. Isn’t that interesting?

 

[JimG]

You seem to be sorta stuck on thinking of everything as the same thing.
Up til this year, carrying any old kind of insurance wasn’t an issue for private business owners. Isn’t that interesting?

Up until this year, the HHS did not mandate coverage with particular coverages which violate Catholic morals.

 

[iloveangels]

Up until this year, the HHS did not mandate coverage with particular coverages which violate Catholic morals.

I know that, but a lot of private employers were already covering these things, and it wasn’t a problem before. And now it is.

 

[JimG]

I know that, but a lot of private employers were already covering these things, and it wasn’t a problem before. And now it is.

Yes, it is, considering that all the bishops oppose the mandate, and there are about 27 lawsuits pending against the HHS by Catholic and Evangelical institutions, as well as at least one private employer. That gives me some hope. I thought perhaps Catholics would simply roll over and play dead for the administration. Maybe they still will. But there’s hope.

 

[RobbyS]

I know that, but a lot of private employers were already covering these things, and it wasn’t a problem before. And now it is.

Because it is a mandate. Before it was voluntary. Abother thing. There is no limit to the authority of the Secretary. She could mandate that insurance provide “therapeutic abortions” now. The only thing that stops her is that it is inexpedient. If she did, even her liberal Catholic allies would abandon her.