Timing of RCIA classes

[Br.Rich_SFO]

“All that sounds great except that the 15 should not be dismissed from Mass and should remain while the other 10 Catechumens gather for Bow. Then everyone joins them at 9:45.”

The baptized candidates then should not participate in BOW, only the unbaptized catechumens? Some of our baptized candidates have little or no experience with the Bible. Where would they gain more benefit, in BOW or the second half of Mass?

We’ve had a new pastor for about a year and a half and he’s bringing in his RCIA co-ordinator from his previous parish after the upcoming Easter Vigil. It’ll be interesting to see what changes we have. Maybe your statement above will be implemented.

Catechumens are dismissed from the Mass because in the early Church they were not allowed to witness the Liturgy of the Eucharist. All the Baptized however have a right to remain for the full Mass and because of their Baptism Gain great Graces from remaining in Mass for the Consecration. Candidates by virtue of their Valid Baptism should remain with the Community of the Faithful because they are one of them. This is the great distinction between the Catechumens and Candidates. Where do they learn more about the Bible? Either at the Catechetical sessions when Scripture is included in the presentations or at an adult Bible Study howted by the parish.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Not in my RCIA Class. I , a Candidate, will be dismissed with the catechumans. Period.

You should explain to them that because of your Baptism you have a right to remain in Mass and gain the Graces from the Liturgy of the Eucharist, even though you cannot yet receive. You are a Baptized Christian and should be treated like one!

 

[Andruschak]

Catechumens are dismissed from the Mass because in the early Church they were not allowed to witness the Liturgy of the Eucharist. All the Baptized however have a right to remain for the full Mass and because of their Baptism Gain great Graces from remaining in Mass for the Consecration. Candidates by virtue of their Valid Baptism should remain with the Community of the Faithful because they are one of them. This is the great distinction between the Catechumens and Candidates. Where do they learn more about the Bible? Either at the Catechetical sessions when Scripture is included in the presentations or at an adult Bible Study howted by the parish.

I hate to sound like an obnoxious know-it-all, but to date I haven’t learned anything new in my RCIA classes. Anything new I have learned comes from the 5 days/week classes at catechismclass.com

And even that has been more or less just adding splashes of color to the mostly complete picture I have of the Church’s Teachings. For the weeks of 16-20 October and 23-27 October, catechismclass.com is taking us through the 10 commandments, one by one, with full readings from THE CATECHISM to explain the Church’s position. Now THAT is the meat-and-potatoes program I need, not the wishy-washy RCIA b ird dropings

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I hate to sound like an obnoxious know-it-all, but to date I haven’t learned anything new in my RCIA classes. Anything new I have learned comes from the 5 days/week classes at catechismclass.com

And even that has been more or less just adding splashes of color to the mostly complete picture I have of the Church’s Teachings. For the weeks of 16-20 October and 23-27 October, catechismclass.com is taking us through the 10 commandments, one by one, with full readings from THE CATECHISM to explain the Church’s position. Now THAT is the meat-and-potatoes program I need, not the wishy-washy RCIA b ird dropings

Well I agree many RCIA processes need more “Meat”.

 

[Andruschak]

You should explain to them that because of your Baptism you have a right to remain in Mass and gain the Graces from the Liturgy of the Eucharist, even though you cannot yet receive. You are a Baptized Christian and should be treated like one!

My church won’t listen to me, and neither does other church in my area. Candidates are treated as catechumans. Period. That includes dismissal.

 

[LeahInancsi]

So, what happens to your Baptised candidates?

Contrary to what many may think, RCIA instruction for the baptized and unbaptized should be no different.

I am the perfect example. Although I was not baptized, I knew more about Christianity and the Catholic church than many of the baptized in my RCIA class. What does a person baptized as a baby, but never attended at church service know more than an unbaptized person?

There’s no need to single out the unbaptized and make them feel like the class idiot. That’s exactly how I would have felt.

End of Rant

 

[LeahInancsi]

Now…to offer my suggestion for a time for RCIA class.

Thursday evening or another weekday evening. I looked forward to going to the church during the week that it became a habit. Since completing RCIA, I still feel the need to be there sometime during the week. I’m going to Book discussion on Monday nights and Scripture study on Wednesday nights.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Contrary to what many may think, RCIA instruction for the baptized and unbaptized should be no different.

I am the perfect example. Although I was not baptized, I knew more about Christianity and the Catholic church than many of the baptized in my RCIA class. What does a person baptized as a baby, but never attended at church service know more than an unbaptized person?

There’s no need to single out the unbaptized and make them feel like the class idiot. That’s exactly how I would have felt.

End of Rant

Have you actually read the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults?

If you had you would know there is a distinction between Baptized - Catechized Candidates and Baptized - Un-Catechized Candidates. The Baptized-Catechized Candidates do not follow the same time line as the Un-Baptized and Baptized but not Catechized.

Baptized-catechized Candidates can enter into full union with the Church in a matter of weeks or months and do not have to wait until the Easter Vigil.

 

[Jeff_Hale]

I will add that following the Easter Vigil our pastor will be separating BOW from catechesis. BOW will continue to be Sunday mornings, but as we understand it now, catechesis will take place during a weekday night so that our priests and deacons can become more involved, which I welcome.

Br. Rich SFO, you make a good case for the candidates remaining for the full Mass. Until our new pastor joined us, we didn’t even have a formal dismissal; we all just got up from our seats in the back and headed out without anything being said. That has changed so that we now sit near the front and are formally dismissed.

The catechumens and candidates have always participated in BOW ever since the RCIA program began at our parish, but I think the way you describe it is a better way to recognize their differences and for the Holy Spirit to be involved; after all, the candidates have been baptized.

I sympathize with Harry. Some of our candidates have a great grounding and understanding of the Bible. One this year has a Master’s in theology from a Baptist college, and a couple of years ago we had a female Methodist pastor who still had to sit through BOW. Now there’s a good opportunity for developing the virtue of patience.

Hopefully with our pastor becoming more involved and our new co-ordinator, we will begin to really recognize the differences people bring to the RCIA process and adjust our program to better meet their needs.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Have you actually read the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults?

If you had you would know there is a distinction between Baptized - Catechized Candidates and Baptized - Un-Catechized Candidates. The Baptized-Catechized Candidates do not follow the same time line as the Un-Baptized and Baptized but not Catechized.

Baptized-catechized Candidates can enter into full union with the Church in a matter of weeks or months and do not have to wait until the Easter Vigil.

I realize that you only know what’s written in a book, but you might try it in the real world for a change.

Do you really think that a Protestant would make a good Catholic in a “matter of weeks”? Not in my RCIA class or anywhere else.

 

[LeahInancsi]

My church won’t listen to me, and neither does other church in my area. Candidates are treated as catechumans. Period. That includes dismissal.

So, what’s the problem with that. There’s no need for you to attend the Liturgy of the Eucharist is you’re not Catholic. When you’re dismissed you should be getting into a group to discuss the scripture readings and any other questions you might have a about Mass or Catholicism, in general. It’s excellent quality time.

 

[jmcrae]

So, what’s the problem with that. There’s no need for you to attend the Liturgy of the Eucharist is you’re not Catholic.

If they have received the Rite of Welcome, then they are considered the same as children under age seven - who also should be in attendance at Mass. That is, they are Baptized members of the community who have not yet received First Holy Communion or Confirmation.

When you’re dismissed you should be getting into a group to discuss the scripture readings and any other questions you might have a about Mass or Catholicism, in general. It’s excellent quality time.

All of the uncatechized, both baptized and unbaptized, need to attend Catechism classes together. But Catechism classes should not be taking place in BOW - that is a time of prayer and reflection for Catechumens.

By the way “that book” was sent to us by the Vatican. It’s not just someone’s opinion of how things could possibly be done: it’s the official directive from Rome on how we are actually supposed to be doing RCIA.

Not following “that book” is to not be doing RCIA - you may be doing something that has some features in common with RCIA, but you are not actually doing RCIA, if you aren’t following “that book.”

 

[LeahInancsi]

If they have received the Rite of Welcome, then they are considered the same as children under age seven - who also should be in attendance at Mass. That is, they are Baptized members of the community who have not yet received First Holy Communion or Confirmation.

All of the uncatechized, both baptized and unbaptized, need to attend Catechism classes together. But Catechism classes should not be taking place in BOW - that is a time of prayer and reflection for Catechumens.

By the way “that book” was sent to us by the Vatican. It’s not just someone’s opinion of how things could possibly be done: it’s the official directive from Rome on how we are actually supposed to be doing RCIA.

Not following “that book” is to not be doing RCIA - you may be doing something that has some features in common with RCIA, but you are not actually doing RCIA, if you aren’t following “that book.”

During BOW we did reflect on the scripture readings and the Liturgy of the Word and we prayed. Some of the most enlightening conversation we had during RCIA came out of that time when we had been dismissed. Without the candidates there it never would have happened. The catechumen in my class were more knowledgeable about Catholicism than the candidates because we either had Catholic spouses or had studied the Church more than the Protestants.

I know what worked for my group. If I had been singled out as a Cathechumen, I wouldn’t be here now and that would be a tragedy and a heartbreak. “The book” isn’t always best in all situations. Since “the book” came from Rome, it’s addressing the Catholic church in non-Christian countries. Ever thought of that. RCIA in the US is should different than Africa or Viet Nam.

BTW, my comments were meant for Br. Rich.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I realize that you only know what’s written in a book, but you might try it in the real world for a change.

Do you really think that a Protestant would make a good Catholic in a “matter of weeks”? Not in my RCIA class or anywhere else.

Because the RCIA is a liturgical document of the Church local adaption is not an option. The Rite must be implimented exactly as written. The world neeeds to conform to the Church, not the Church to the “real” world.

Do I think a Protestant could become a good Catholic in a matter of weeks. Yes, some could. Many have been “Catholic” for years and each will still have a Sponsor. Which by the way is not a “temporary assignment”, your Sponsor is your Sponsor for life. Especially during Mystagogy and the year as a neophite.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

So, what’s the problem with that. There’s no need for you to attend the Liturgy of the Eucharist is you’re not Catholic. When you’re dismissed you should be getting into a group to discuss the scripture readings and any other questions you might have a about Mass or Catholicism, in general. It’s excellent quality time.

BOW is not about “any other questions you might have a about Mass or Catholicism, in general.” Since Candidates are Baptized they do have the ability to receive graces by just being present at the Consecration and for the whole Mass.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Because the RCIA is a liturgical document of the Church local adaption is not an option. The Rite must be implimented exactly as written. The world neeeds to conform to the Church, not the Church to the “real” world.

Do I think a Protestant could become a good Catholic in a matter of weeks. Yes, some could. Many have been “Catholic” for years and each will still have a Sponsor. Which by the way is not a “temporary assignment”, your Sponsor is your Sponsor for life. Especially during Mystagogy and the year as a neophite.

That makes someone who in not baptized, but has a thorough knowledge of the Chruch and idiot and unworthy?

You have no idea.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

During BOW we did reflect on the scripture readings and the Liturgy of the Word and we prayed. Some of the most enlightening conversation we had during RCIA came out of that time when we had been dismissed. Without the candidates there it never would have happened. The catechumen in my class were more knowledgeable about Catholicism than the candidates because we either had Catholic spouses or had studied the Church more than the Protestants.

I know what worked for my group. If I had been singled out as a Cathechumen, I wouldn’t be here now and that would be a tragedy and a heartbreak. “The book” isn’t always best in all situations. Since “the book” came from Rome, it’s addressing the Catholic church in non-Christian countries. Ever thought of that. RCIA in the US is should different than Africa or Viet Nam.

BTW, my comments were meant for Br. Rich.

You are correct in that the application may have cultural differences. But The RCIA is for those who are NOT Baptized, or those who were Baptized as infants but never Catechized.

BOW is really NOT a Scripture discussion group either. It should be a presentation of the Scriptures and their application in the lives of Christians. It is not a “what do you think this passage means?” It is the Gospel message being presented to the Catechumens. Catechumens and Baptized but un-Catechized would have little or no understanding of the Christian Gospel message.

 

[LeahInancsi]

To the OP…Please excuse me for taking your thread off topic.

To all other…Please return to the topic at hand.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

That makes someone who in not baptized, but has a thorough knowledge of the Chruch and idiot and unworthy?

You have no idea.

Why would you say that?

A person who is not Baptized is not a Christian, and is not a member of The Church, that is a fact. Why would that make them an idiot and unworthy?

I could read book after book on surgery and perfect my skills on steaks and chickens, but it matters not how much I know. What matters is if I’m licensed to practice surgery.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Contrary to what many may think, RCIA instruction for the baptized and unbaptized should be no different.

I am the perfect example. Although I was not baptized, I knew more about Christianity and the Catholic church than many of the baptized in my RCIA class. What does a person baptized as a baby, but never attended at church service know more than an unbaptized person?

There’s no need to single out the unbaptized and make them feel like the class idiot. That’s exactly how I would have felt.

End of Rant

Hi Nanci
I want you to know many RCIA Team members hear your comments correctly. This is common but unintended. Over 2000 years Catholicism has grown so complex it is truly difficult basically impossible to cover the religion in a few weeks. In theory we all attended Mass our whole life plus 2 years of ccd and during ccd we were taught correctly and remember everything. I am truly sorry you and many others felt out of place in the Mass & RCIA process. I work on this all the time, and yes I get quiet a bit of lip over the subject. Frankly, many Catholics brag on their religion and wish to exclude many people (homos, divorces, etc). That always amazes me how their practices contradict the teaching of Christ. In early Christian practices there were Catholics, and non Catholics, no Protestants existed. Some of the practices today are still based on that theory. In theory once a Non-Catholic joined the Church the new person was taught the religion from the members.

BTW do you know the interaction between Sponsors and Godparents? As some have Godparents before the enter, while other do not.