Tips on promoting the Traditional Latin Mass?

[JReducation]

ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/new-cara-stats-deacons-priests-sisters-and-parishes

What is your source?

Annals of the Order

Other sources, such as new-cara, count priests in parishes. When religious orders and religious congregations have general chapters, we count everyone.

When discussing vocations the number of priests per lay person, brothers per lay person, sisters per lay person is not what you’re looking for. You’re looking for the number of perpetual professions in a religious community or ordinations to a diocese. You count everyone whether they are in active ministry or other.

That’s why the number of priests per lay people is lower in Latin America. Most priests there are religious. They are not in parishes Their parishes tend to be very large with one priest for thousands of people and up the road you may have a friary with 40 friars, with 16 of them ordained. But they are involved in another ministry that does not get tabulated for this particular purpose. It is tabulated when you count the number of vocations. That’s the difference between the two sets of numbers. Religious men have a larger flow of vocations in Latin America and the Caribbean than in the USA, but Latin America has a lower number of priests in parish work and in direct ministry to the laity.

In the USA only 30 to 40 percent of priests are also religious. Therefore, you have more of priests in parishes.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[laszlo]

Annals of the Order

Other sources, such as new-cara, count priests in parishes. When religious orders and religious congregations have general chapters, we count everyone.

I closely follow such numbers since 1990. I am very interested. Can you share your numbers with us?

 

[ProVobis]

The Extraordinary Form is available to those who want it. It is was not released with the intent of imposing it or marketiing it. That would be very disrespectful to the mass. It’s not a commodity.

I’m not saying you’re wrong but here’s my problem with that thought. When you speak of marketing, it DOES becomes (like) a commodity (or service) where demand and supply are involved. Let’s take a company like WD-40 which only produces one product and has for a long time, since its inception in fact. And let’s also say it decides all of a sudden to use different ingredients and creates products which are priced much lower. People buying these new products agree that it does the job they need and they don’t need the quality of the original product. And then the WD-40 company sees other companies doing the same and people flocking to them and now its own original WD-40 has become lost in the shuffle. So how can the WD-40 company regain its original identity and re-establish itself in the marketplace? I admit it rather unfair to compare this with the Mass, but I think it’s similar market psychology that’s involved here. It won’t be an easy road.

 

[JReducation]

I’m not saying you’re wrong but here’s my problem with that thought. When you speak of marketing, it DOES becomes (like) a commodity (or service) where demand and supply are involved. Let’s take a company like WD-40 which only produces one product and has for a long time, since its inception in fact. And let’s also say it decides all of a sudden to use different ingredients and creates products which are priced much lower. People buying these new products agree that it does the job they need and they don’t need the quality of the original product. And then the WD-40 company sees other companies doing the same and people flocking to them and now its own original WD-40 has become lost in the shuffle. So how can the WD-40 company regain its original identity and re-establish itself in the marketplace? I admit it rather unfair to compare this with the Mass, but I think it’s similar market psychology that’s involved here. It won’t be an easy road.

I understand wanting to get a stable community of people and a priest who wants to celebrate the EF. That to me is not commercial. That’s like anything else, getting up a new chapter of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, for example. I’m comfortable with that.

I’m very uncomfortable with the example that was shared above or similar ones, If a community or individual is grounded in the Ordinary Form, God is being worshiped, obviously. We should assume that graces is being mediated, because that’s what happens through the holy mass in any form or any rite. In that case, it seems a little like marketing to try to “sell” the Extraordinary Form to them. I’m referring to the example of the Hispanic community.

In my mind, it’s one thing to recruit people or invite people to form a stable group for an Extraordinary Form mass at a parish and another to try to uproot people. You invite, you explain and if they say “I really like my mass, thank you,” you don’t come on this board or any place looking for a way to persuade them to change. At that pont, I feel that it becomes like a sale that the individual has to make or an agenda that he or she has to push. That makes me very uncomfortable. Do you see my discomfort?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

JReducation:
Br Jr, yes. I’m not trying to uproot anyone. That’s not effective marketing. I agreed with the poster on setting up some sort of class before even beginning to introduce an EF to a parish. Otherwise it may not be worth the trouble as a lot is involved in trying to set it up. I’ve seen too many coming in to an EF Mass, only to walk out or never to come back again, probably because it was all different to them. Actually, I’ve seen people walk out when the O Salutaris Hostia was sung at on OF as well. I know many complain when they hear a little Latin or see the priest say the Mass ad orientem or even when the microphone fails for a couple of minutes. I understand there are very sensitive issues involved here. It’s a fact that most people don’t like changes of any kind; I’ve been to too many townhall meetings not to have learned that. Somehow the world has to work around that, though.

 

[sursumcorda]

You can try to introduce the EF, but avoid sounding like a European colonist. One comment that you made about the Mariachi made you sound like a European. That can come back to haunt you. I understood that you meant no disrespect. We have to understand that something that is over 1,000 years old is very special to people, especially when they are away from home. It’s a touch of home.

+JMJ+

Thank you for your reply, and thank you for understanding my point of view on mariachi, personaly I love Mariachi bands,at least good ones, I know a family that sing catholic songs on our lady and our Lord to the style of mariachi, it beautiful and so full of emotion. its just not what im used to when assisting at mass.

But I wanted to ask you Br. JR I heard of a mass setting {I think from spain, very ancient} but I forget the composer, it involves an organ and two spanish guitars do you know about anything that sounds like that, if not, do you know how to incorperate an organ and mariachi together, I know they have to exist out there someware.

 

[JReducation]

Br Jr, yes. I’m not trying to uproot anyone. That’s not effective marketing. I agreed with the poster on setting up some sort of class before even beginning to introduce an EF to a parish. Otherwise it may not be worth the trouble as a lot is involved in trying to set it up. I’ve seen too many coming in to an EF Mass, only to walk out or never to come back again, probably because it was all different to them. Actually, I’ve seen people walk out when the O Salutaris Hostia was sung at on OF as well. I know many complain when they hear a little Latin or see the priest say the Mass ad orientem or even when the microphone fails for a couple of minutes. I understand there are very sensitive issues involved here. It’s a fact that most people don’t like changes of any kind; I’ve been to too many townhall meetings not to have learned that. Somehow the world has to work around that, though.

I’m all for exposure. If you notice how the different Franciscan obediences do this, we do it through exposure. We avoid all comparisons between the EF and OF. We simply expose people to the fact that it exists and that there is a possibility to attend, if they want to do so. It works. Many friars have asked for permission to celebrate it and have been sent to train in it, not all, but many. Superiors regulate who can and when. That’s their perrogative. Even this makes people feel very comfortable. When we speak to people in the parishes where we are present that the Major Superior has given permission for them to have this, they feel very secure in the knowledge that it’s not a whim of the friar before them. The Eternal Word Franciscans have been wonderful in helping expose people to it by having it several times a year on EWTN. To me, that’s not marketing. It’s a very gentle pastoral approach. It has even worked with the major superiors. Some had reservations. When they were exposed to it, they thought about it and felt comfortable. Those major superiors that said “NO” had the misfortune of having someone demand it of them. That’s the worse thing that you can do to anyone. If they can run, they will. If they have authority to say “No” they’ll do that too.

One of the things that I do in a parish where I volunteer is teach the kids the prayers in Latin. I’m not allowed to teach them Gregorian Chant, because Franciscans don’t use it unless they have an indult. It’s contrary to the wishes of the founder. But I do teach them another form of chan often called Plainchant. Some kids like it. Some don’t.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ConstantineTG]

Bro. JR,

So what you are saying in a nutshell is that its okay to educate others, to expose them to another form of Liturgy, as long as you’re not trying to convert them to it. Its that a good one sentence summary?

 

[JReducation]

+JMJ+

Thank you for your reply, and thank you for understanding my point of view on mariachi, personally I love Mariachi bands,at least good ones, I know a family that sing catholic songs on our lady and our Lord to the style of mariachi, it beautiful and so full of emotion. its just not what I’m used to when assisting at mass.

But I wanted to ask you Br. JR I heard of a mass setting {I think from Spain, very ancient} but I forget the composer, it involves an organ and two Spanish guitars do you know about anything that sounds like that, if not, do you know how to incorporate an organ and mariachi together, I know they have to exist out there somewhere.

I’m afraid I don’t know which one that could be. I know that the Spanish have many such compositions that date back hundreds of years. There are some that are in Spanish composed by St. Teresa of Avila. They are played with a guitar. I don’t think Teresa’s compositions are with an organ, because Teresa banned organs from her houses. They were signs of wealth.

If I learn of anything, I’ll post it here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Bro. JR,

So what you are saying in a nutshell is that its okay to educate others, to expose them to another form of Liturgy, as long as you’re not trying to convert them to it. Its that a good one sentence summary?

That’s it in a nutshell. The form of the mass is not a religion or political ideology. It is utterly rude to the mass itself to treat it as such and it is rude the the people who are grounded in a tradition to present any form of the mass or any of the rites as better than the other, regardless of our feelings for it.

If I may be so bold, without being crucified, allow me to give an example of how I see this play itself out. Allow me to use the example of religious families.

Let’s take the major orders of men: Benedictines, Carmelites, Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits, Augustinians, Carthusians and Basilians.

You have here the eight religious orders of men. Some of these orders have branches: Franciscans, Carmelites, Augustinians, and Benedictines. They have a shared charism, but different internal organization and ministries. That makes for even greater diversity.

We began with one Catholic Church. Then we had eight religious families. Today, many of these families have multiple branches, making it more than eight expressions of the faith. Parallel to the religious orders of men you have the religious congregations of men and the diocesan clergy.

For centuries each order has had its own breviary and missal. The religious congregations and the Diocesan clergy share the Roman Missal and Roman Breviary. Together they make up the largest form.

Now, here is the possibility that I see for the current situation Ef & OF.

For over 1,000 years, these religious families have lived, worked and worshiped side by side. Each has prayed the Divine Office and the mass differently from each other. Outside of these religious families, you have the congregations and the diocesan clergy who have used the Roman Missal and Roman Breviary. In fact, you have never had uniformity in the Latin Church’s liturgy.

We must ask ourselves why have we had this diversity and most people were none the wiser? There was no INTERNET and Catholics were not as mobile. You only knew what was the usual in your town. But there was more.

These religious families never “promoted” their forms and rites. They did not compete with each other. They used it where they found themselves. Dominicans respected that Franciscans didn’t chant. Franciscans respect that Benedictines had very elaborate Divine Office. Benedictines respected that Dominicans had their own rite. Carthusians hid so that the laity could never see them celebrate mass or at prayer, but the Jesuits did not judge them or condemn them.

When you get a group of these guys together for mass the only question they ask is, “Who runs this place?” If the Dominicans run it, everyone uses the Dominican tradition, the same if it is Franciscan, Benedictine, Carmelite or Carthusian. If you don’t have permission to celebrate the mass in that tradition or don’t now how, that’s not a problem either. You let the person who knows preside and you sit through it as best you can. I remember sitting through a mass at a Carthusian house and feeling as if I was always one step behind the priest. I had no idea how they celebrated mass. I sat there in this guest house and the priest started. They didn’t have a missalette.

One thing is clear, a Benedictine does not leave a Franciscan chapel saying, “Oh my God, they’re so scattered when they celebrate mass and they can’t chant”, nor does a Dominican leave saying, “Can you believe how those Franciscans were dressed for mass? While we were wearing our clean white habits and black traveling mantles, the Franciscans wore jeans, tattered robes, scarves to tie their hair back, were barefoot or had dirty shoes” Franciscans know that Dominicans always look very proper and monastic. Dominicans know that Franciscans have always looked like slobs.

All of us know that the Liturgy of the Hours and the Liturgy of the Mass are acts of worship and communion. We also know that the abuses and silliness are not part of the mass, but go with the person or persons. We don’t think of one as preferable to the other. We know that they all exist and we don’t give it a second thought.

I think that if we look at these folks, separate the silliness that is really part of people, not forms, we can learn from these folks how to live with the two forms of the Roman Rite without trying to make a sale or trying to defend one over the other. Look at how these guys keep their cool about the diversity and how they appreciate diversity. Trust me, we have seen our fair share of abuse in many forms.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[InquisitorMax]

Never thought 20 years ago I’d be keen to promote a Mass. Any Mass.

Any more tips? Keep 'em short and sweet. I didn’t start this thread to get into another debate on the merits of our rites; there’s plenty of those.

Just on how to promote the old one. Thanks.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Br. JR,
Another series of very insightful & informative posts!

Thank You!

 

[InquisitorMax]

Actually, I’ve seen people walk out when the O Salutaris Hostia was sung at on OF as well. I know many complain when they hear a little Latin or see the priest say the Mass ad orientem or even when the microphone fails for a couple of minutes. I understand there are very sensitive issues involved here. It’s a fact that most people don’t like changes of any kind; I’ve been to too many townhall meetings not to have learned that. Somehow the world has to work around that, though.

Now this is interesting. I’ve often thought it’d be interesting to be psychic for a day. Maybe Sunday

 

[JReducation]

Br. JR,
Another series of very insightful & informative posts!

Thank You!

Thank you. This is a subject near and dear to my heart.

Never thought 20 years ago I’d be keen to promote a Mass. Any Mass.

Any more tips? Keep 'em short and sweet. I didn’t start this thread to get into another debate on the merits of our rites; there’s plenty of those.

Just on how to promote the old one. Thanks.

You had some good ideas in post one.

I also suggest exposure.

What I’m not too clear about is are you trying to promote it or are you trying to get a group together in your parish?

Thanks for your response.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[The_Old_Medic]

My wish and hope is that the Latin Mass would be totally prohibited.

It is not that I find that traditional Mass offensive. In fact, I find it quite the opposite. I love the ceremony, the music, etc.

BUT, I am sick and tired of the people that are attempting to work within to bring the church back to the “bad old days”. I vividly remember those days. When the vast majority of Catholics didn’t have a clue what was actually happening during the Mass. It was “rote religion” pure and simple.

The average Catholic never learned any Latin. They didn’t know what the prayers meant (even the servers usually had to read it off a card, and they didn’t understand it either). Even a lot of Priests didn’t really understand the Latin all that well.

How can people actually worship, when they don’t even know what is being said?

I would be willing to bet that 90% plus of those that are promoting this are WAY too young to remember what it was really like. I converted into that Latin language Church, and I remember being shocked that the vast majority of the Catholics didn’t have a clue. It was all just one mysterious bit of “mumbo-jumbo” that the priest did, and at some point you went up to communion.

The vast majority didn’t sing at Mass (Protestanst used to describe Catholics as the people that didn’t sing). They memorized a hymn, but didn’t know what it meant (like Tantum Ergo (which is horribly translated in every music book I have ever seen).

People sat in the pews and reacted like robots. there was very little “worship”, how can there be, when most people don’t know what is going on?

God preserve us from those that would once again impose a foreign language, and a form of the Mass that totally eliminates interaction with the people,. I know that their intentions are good, but, as the old saying goes: The road to Hell is paved with “Good Intentions”.

 

[Cat]

That’s it in a nutshell. The form of the mass is not a religion or political ideology. It is utterly rude to the mass itself to treat it as such and it is rude the the people who are grounded in a tradition to present any form of the mass or any of the rites as better than the other, regardless of our feelings for it.

If I may be so bold, without being crucified, allow me to give an example of how I see this play itself out. Allow me to use the example of religious families.

Let’s take the major orders of men: Benedictines, Carmelites, Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits, Augustinians, Carthusians and Basilians.

You have here the eight religious orders of men. Some of these orders have branches: Franciscans, Carmelites, Augustinians, and Benedictines. They have a shared charism, but different internal organization and ministries. That makes for even greater diversity.

We began with one Catholic Church. Then we had eight religious families. Today, many of these families have multiple branches, making it more than eight expressions of the faith. Parallel to the religious orders of men you have the religious congregations of men and the diocesan clergy.

For centuries each order has had its own breviary and missal. The religious congregations and the Diocesan clergy share the Roman Missal and Roman Breviary. Together they make up the largest form.

Now, here is the possibility that I see for the current situation Ef & OF.

For over 1,000 years, these religious families have lived, worked and worshiped side by side. Each has prayed the Divine Office and the mass differently from each other. Outside of these religious families, you have the congregations and the diocesan clergy who have used the Roman Missal and Roman Breviary. In fact, you have never had uniformity in the Latin Church’s liturgy.

We must ask ourselves why have we had this diversity and most people were none the wiser? There was no INTERNET and Catholics were not as mobile. You only knew what was the usual in your town. But there was more.

These religious families never “promoted” their forms and rites. They did not compete with each other. They used it where they found themselves. Dominicans respected that Franciscans didn’t chant. Franciscans respect that Benedictines had very elaborate Divine Office. Benedictines respected that Dominicans had their own rite. Carthusians hid so that the laity could never see them celebrate mass or at prayer, but the Jesuits did not judge them or condemn them.

When you get a group of these guys together for mass the only question they ask is, “Who runs this place?” If the Dominicans run it, everyone uses the Dominican tradition, the same if it is Franciscan, Benedictine, Carmelite or Carthusian. If you don’t have permission to celebrate the mass in that tradition or don’t now how, that’s not a problem either. You let the person who knows preside and you sit through it as best you can. I remember sitting through a mass at a Carthusian house and feeling as if I was always one step behind the priest. I had no idea how they celebrated mass. I sat there in this guest house and the priest started. They didn’t have a missalette.

One thing is clear, a Benedictine does not leave a Franciscan chapel saying, “Oh my God, they’re so scattered when they celebrate mass and they can’t chant”, nor does a Dominican leave saying, “Can you believe how those Franciscans were dressed for mass? While we were wearing our clean white habits and black traveling mantles, the Franciscans wore jeans, tattered robes, scarves to tie their hair back, were barefoot or had dirty shoes” Franciscans know that Dominicans always look very proper and monastic. Dominicans know that Franciscans have always looked like slobs.

All of us know that the Liturgy of the Hours and the Liturgy of the Mass are acts of worship and communion. We also know that the abuses and silliness are not part of the mass, but go with the person or persons. We don’t think of one as preferable to the other. We know that they all exist and we don’t give it a second thought.

I think that if we look at these folks, separate the silliness that is really part of people, not forms, we can learn from these folks how to live with the two forms of the Roman Rite without trying to make a sale or trying to defend one over the other. Look at how these guys keep their cool about the diversity and how they appreciate diversity. Trust me, we have seen our fair share of abuse in many forms.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

This is such an insightful post. Thank you for taking the time to share this. I will take it to heart.

 

[bkovacs]

JReducation your lucky. Where I live, Upper Bucks County PA, we don’t have any of those religious orders. The Augustinians live down in Villanova, but good luck getting to experience a Mass with one of those priests, unless your a student at the University. The Paulines, only want to converse with people who speak Polish. No matter how many years you have been going to the Polish Shrine. So all we have is secular diocesan priests, who try to establish trendy parishes. Wish I had an Benedictine Abbey, or Dominican Friary to go to regularly. What Carthusian House did you go to?.

 

[JReducation]

JReducation your lucky.

I don’t call it luck.

Being a religious, I’ve had the opportunity of very good formation in Church history, spirituality and liturgy, something that most diocesan priests don’t get, because they go through a very brief and intense formation program. Their formation program is four to five years after college. Ours is 10.

Where I live, Upper Bucks County PA, we don’t have any of those religious orders. The Augustinians live down in Villanova, but good luck getting to experience a Mass with one of those priests, unless your a student at the University.

They were founded for a very specific purpose. The Augustinians were founded to live a monastic life in the world of academia. Anything and anyone that’s outside of that has to be addressed when there is time and human resources. The charism of the community always takes priority for religious. That’s why if you ask a Trappist what does he think about the sexual abuse scandal, he’ll tell you that it’s horrible and he’s saddened. If you ask him how much he knows about it, he’ll tell you very little. It’s not part of the Trappist charism to worry about these things. They get the news and they incorporate it into their prayer life. They don’t worry about it or pay much attention to it. They pray for a resolution, healing and forgiveness. That’s their charism.

In this case, the Augies’ charism is the monastic and academic life. Celebrating mass for outsiders is not in their field of vision or concern. It would change who they are. They would be Dominicans instead of Augustinians. That’s not what the faithful want either. I would think that the faithful want an Augustinian to be an Augustinian and do whatever it is they’re supposed to do and live the way they’re supposed to live, not the way that Jesuits, Dominicans or Franciscans live and work. You don’t want them to be so priestly that they look like diocesan priests and cease to look monastic. Monasticism is not priestly, except for the Carthusians.

The Paulines, only want to converse with people who speak Polish. No matter how many years you have been going to the Polish Shrine.

Now , that’s funny.

So all we have is secular diocesan priests, who try to establish trendy parishes.

There are many holy diocesan priests. I have three very good friends who are absolutely awesome One of them is a bishop. He’s a very holy man. If you want to know a holy diocesan priest, read about Bishop Victor Galeone, Bishop Armando Xavier Ochoa, Bishop Felipe de Jesus Estevez, and Bishop Thomas Wenski. They are very holy diocesan priests with very interesting personalities.

Wish I had an Benedictine Abbey, or Dominican Friary to go to regularly.

Dominicans live in Priories. Franciscans live in friaries. But we forgive you.

What Carthusian House did you go to?.

Spain, Italy and Vermont. I love their chapels because they debunk the myths that we have about how a church should look. Their chapels and Franciscan chapels are very similar. They are whitewashed. Paintings, murals, statues and candles are not allowed. Actually, Franciscans use statues of St. Francis, Clare and the Blessed Mother. There is an open sanctuary with no railing and no kneelers. They stand around the altar for mass. They usually have the tabernacle either on the side or in a side chapel adjacent to the main sanctuary. They have done this since the 11th century. And we thought it was new.

The only change they have made is in the Carthusian rite. It was reformed in 1981 by order of the pope. It’s not the OF. It’s just a reform of the Carthusian Rite. They have rather interesting custom. In the monasteries of nuns, the nun who reads the Gospel wears a stole and maniple. When they make solemn vows, they receive a stole and maniple. I’m not sure how or why this custom began. I found it interesting.

You don’t see much of them praying or celebrating mass. The guys in Spain told me that they avoid contamination by the laity. Even religious men are allowed inside the enclosure only rarely. If you’re staying for an extended period you can go inside. If you’re there for a week’s retreat, you stay at the guest house. When I visited Vermont (Transfiguration) it was not finished. I want to go back. I understand that it’s impressive in its austerity and beauty. The pictures on their web page are nice.

They give the impression of not liking outsiders. That’s not the case at all. They are wonderful and they have the most wonderful sense of humor. The ones that I’ve met are delightful and very normal guys.

Now that we’re off topic, to bring this back to topic, that would be something that we should promote among the lay faithful. I think that they lay faithful would like to see the differences between the Roman Rite and the other rites in the Latin Church. They would also like to see the different variations of the forms in the Roman Rite. Everyone who has watched EWTN has seen the Franciscan form. But how many people have ever seen the Carmelite Rite, the Dominican Rite, the Augustinian form, the Benedictine form or the Basilian form?

People really need to see the universality of liturgy even in the Latin Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cat]

I don’t call it luck.

Being a religious, I’ve had the opportunity of very good formation in Church history, spirituality and liturgy, something that most diocesan priests don’t get, because they go through a very brief and intense formation program. Their formation program is four to five years after college. Ours is 10.

They were founded for a very specific purpose. The Augustinians were founded to live a monastic life in the world of academia. Anything and anyone that’s outside of that has to be addressed when there is time and human resources. The charism of the community always takes priority for religious. That’s why if you ask a Trappist what does he think about the sexual abuse scandal, he’ll tell you that it’s horrible and he’s saddened. If you ask him how much he knows about it, he’ll tell you very little. It’s not part of the Trappist charism to worry about these things. They get the news and they incorporate it into their prayer life. They don’t worry about it or pay much attention to it. They pray for a resolution, healing and forgiveness. That’s their charism.

In this case, the Augies’ charism is the monastic and academic life. Celebrating mass for outsiders is not in their field of vision or concern. It would change who they are. They would be Dominicans instead of Augustinians. That’s not what the faithful want either. I would think that the faithful want an Augustinian to be an Augustinian and do whatever it is they’re supposed to do and live the way they’re supposed to live, not the way that Jesuits, Dominicans or Franciscans live and work. You don’t want them to be so priestly that they look like diocesan priests and cease to look monastic. Monasticism is not priestly, except for the Carthusians.

Now , that’s funny.

There are many holy diocesan priests. I have three very good friends who are absolutely awesome One of them is a bishop. He’s a very holy man. If you want to know a holy diocesan priest, read about Bishop Victor Galeone, Bishop Armando Xavier Ochoa, Bishop Felipe de Jesus Estevez, and Bishop Thomas Wenski. They are very holy diocesan priests with very interesting personalities.

Dominicans live in Priories. Franciscans live in friaries. But we forgive you.

Spain, Italy and Vermont. I love their chapels because they debunk the myths that we have about how a church should look. Their chapels and Franciscan chapels are very similar. They are whitewashed. Paintings, murals, statues and candles are not allowed. Actually, Franciscans use statues of St. Francis, Clare and the Blessed Mother. There is an open sanctuary with no railing and no kneelers. They stand around the altar for mass. They usually have the tabernacle either on the side or in a side chapel adjacent to the main sanctuary. They have done this since the 11th century. And we thought it was new.

The only change they have made is in the Carthusian rite. It was reformed in 1981 by order of the pope. It’s not the OF. It’s just a reform of the Carthusian Rite. They have rather interesting custom. In the monasteries of nuns, the nun who reads the Gospel wears a stole and maniple. When they make solemn vows, they receive a stole and maniple. I’m not sure how or why this custom began. I found it interesting.

You don’t see much of them praying or celebrating mass. The guys in Spain told me that they avoid contamination by the laity. Even religious men are allowed inside the enclosure only rarely. If you’re staying for an extended period you can go inside. If you’re there for a week’s retreat, you stay at the guest house. When I visited Vermont (Transfiguration) it was not finished. I want to go back. I understand that it’s impressive in its austerity and beauty. The pictures on their web page are nice.

They give the impression of not liking outsiders. That’s not the case at all. They are wonderful and they have the most wonderful sense of humor. The ones that I’ve met are delightful and very normal guys.

Now that we’re off topic, to bring this back to topic, that would be something that we should promote among the lay faithful. I think that they lay faithful would like to see the differences between the Roman Rite and the other rites in the Latin Church. They would also like to see the different variations of the forms in the Roman Rite. Everyone who has watched EWTN has seen the Franciscan form. But how many people have ever seen the Carmelite Rite, the Dominican Rite, the Augustinian form, the Benedictine form or the Basilian form?

People really need to see the universality of liturgy even in the Latin Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

This is so interesting!

Is there a good book (easy to read) about the various religious orders in the Catholic Church?

I think such a book would be an excellent read, and would probably help Catholic Christians to feel more at ease about actively seeking out the possibility of a personal calling to a vocation. Has this book been written?

I also think such a book could become a best-seller in evangelical Protestant circles. There is a lot of interest in the evangelical churches in ancient church practices right now. A book about religious orders would be huge, and I believe would encourage more evangelical Protestants to become interested in Catholicism.

J.R., are you interesting in writing an article about this subject and submitting it to Christianity Today? Would you be interested in collaborating with me on such an article? I don’t have any “in” with CT (other than growing up with Pastor John Ortberg, and yes, I will drop that name!). But I think it’s the kind of article that they might be interested in, as long as there is a tie-in with evangelicalism. Not sure what that tie-in would be, other than to mention converts who enter Catholic orders.

 

[JReducation]

This is so interesting!

Is there a good book (easy to read) about the various religious orders in the Catholic Church?

I think such a book would be an excellent read, and would probably help Catholic Christians to feel more at ease about actively seeking out the possibility of a personal calling to a vocation. Has this book been written?

I also think such a book could become a best-seller in evangelical Protestant circles. There is a lot of interest in the evangelical churches in ancient church practices right now. A book about religious orders would be huge, and I believe would encourage more evangelical Protestants to become interested in Catholicism.

J.R., are you interesting in writing an article about this subject and submitting it to Christianity Today? Would you be interested in collaborating with me on such an article? I don’t have any “in” with CT (other than growing up with Pastor John Ortberg, and yes, I will drop that name!). But I think it’s the kind of article that they might be interested in, as long as there is a tie-in with evangelicalism. Not sure what that tie-in would be, other than to mention converts who enter Catholic orders.

There are hundreds of books on the great orders of men, religious movements and diverse spiritualities. Go to www.amazon.com and type in religious orders of men and you’ll find over 100 titles.

Such an article would be interesting. It would be interesting to help the Protestant Evangelicals trace their roots. The first known “charismatics Christians” were the early Franciscan friars. The Evangelical Protestant movement owes its spirituality to Augustine and Francis.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF