Tired of the same old Protesant line

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ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,
I was wondering how would you explain the verses I put out above–2 posts up about Romans? Also how do you think God saves us? At some point we have to believe and confess we believe–right? I was just slightly confused by your statement.:confused:
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That was what I was talking about.

The Letter of Paul to the Romans is concerned with explaining the relationship of Christianity to Judaism.

In the passage you related Paul’s point is not to provide a how-to instruction on “getting saved”.

He is talking about the essential unity of the Jewish and Christian testimony about Christ and the stubbornness of some Jews in not accepting it.

In verses 2-4 Paul points out the problem Jews have if they do not believe in the Messiah God has sent:
For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
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His point then in the portions you bolded is that it is the same for Jews and for Gentiles, they must believe that Christ is the Messiah, the one God sent to save them.

So, the point is not “how to get saved” so much as “Christ is the way for Jew and Gentile alike”. Confessing with the lips and believing with the heart are not given as a magic formula but as the logical and therefore necessary result of acceptance of the fact of His work.

And this “acceptance” is not something we do, it comes by hearing (v. 17).

Paul is consistent throughout all his writing that our salvation is from the wrath and judgement of God by faith in Christ (something we receive when we hear the Gospel preached) and rests not in ourselves or our works but in what He has done for us in Jesus. So any talk of accepting and receiving and choosing to believe must be pressed under the more clearly articulated biblical truth that faith comes by hearing that that we are saved not by works but by Grace.

What this leaves us with is the conclusion that our accepting, choosing, receiving are the consequences of our being born again, not their cause.
 
For the record I am Lutheran in case you didn’t know and I am not purporting to express Roman Catholic doctrine on the subject.

I just wanted to point out that the “fire insurance” theory of redemption isn’t necessarily one which all Protestants accept.
 
Hi, ALL
Mother thereasa had a personal relationship with Jesus that I think most would agree completed Jesus’s command; love one another even as I have loved you. She saw him in everyone wow! Can we do this? We all say we believe, but do are actions show this? The Rosary, Mass and Euchrist, you can’t get more personal then this and this certainly was her priority when it came to a personal relationship.She certainly was a graced person. She kept her eyes on Christ’s suffering in the poor don’t ya think? My 2 cents worth.

PEACE
ONENOW1
 
Steadfast said:
That was what I was talking about.

The Letter of Paul to the Romans is concerned with explaining the relationship of Christianity to Judaism.

In the passage you related Paul’s point is not to provide a how-to instruction on “getting saved”.

He is talking about the essential unity of the Jewish and Christian testimony about Christ and the stubbornness of some Jews in not accepting it.

In verses 2-4 Paul points out the problem Jews have if they do not believe in the Messiah God has sent:

His point then in the portions you bolded is that it is the same for Jews and for Gentiles, they must believe that Christ is the Messiah, the one God sent to save them.

So, the point is not “how to get saved” so much as “Christ is the way for Jew and Gentile alike”. Confessing with the lips and believing with the heart are not given as a magic formula but as the logical and therefore necessary result of acceptance of the fact of His work.

And this “acceptance” is not something we do, it comes by hearing (v. 17).

Paul is consistent throughout all his writing that our salvation is from the wrath and judgement of God by faith in Christ (something we receive when we hear the Gospel preached) and rests not in ourselves or our works but in what He has done for us in Jesus. So any talk of accepting and receiving and choosing to believe must be pressed under the more clearly articulated biblical truth that faith comes by hearing that that we are saved not by works but by Grace.

What this leaves us with is the conclusion that our accepting, choosing, receiving are the consequences of our being born again, not their cause.
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Hi,
I can accept that.👍 Thank you for clearing that up for me.👍
 
onenow1 said:
Hi, ALL
Mother thereasa had a personal relationship with Jesus that I think most would agree completed Jesus’s command; love one another even as I have loved you. She saw him in everyone wow! Can we do this? We all say we believe, but do are actions show this? The Rosary, Mass and Euchrist, you can’t get more personal then this and this certainly was her priority when it came to a personal relationship.She certainly was a graced person. She kept her eyes on Christ’s suffering in the poor don’t ya think? My 2 cents worth.

PEACE
ONENOW1
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Hi,
I have no problems with your statement.👍 Our actions need to back up our statements. I agree Mother Theresa certainly did that.👍 I would add we all need to walk the talk–wouldnt you agree?
 
When my friend read from the Bible, St.Paul said if you accept Jesus, you will be saved, or something like that. I have to look it up. Is this true? Did he say this? I thought I read that St. Paul did say this. :confused:
 
sassygal1973 said:
When my friend read from the Bible, St.Paul said if you accept Jesus, you will be saved, or something like that. I have to look it up. Is this true? Did he say this? I thought I read that St. Paul did say this. :confused:
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Do you have a citation? It would be important to read it in context. Also, keep in mind that Protestants often “add commentary” as they are reading the Scriptures - not everything she said to you was actually written on the page that she was reading from.

It’s important to follow along in your own copy of the Scriptures when discussing these things with Protestants, so that you can discern when they are adding their own interpretations to it.
 
jmcrae said:
In fact, I think Catholics have even more assurance of salvation than Protestants, because we can see and touch the means by which Christ comes to us, sanctifies us, and feeds us with His Bread of Life. We don’t have to rely on feelings, or worry about whether it “shows” or not. 😉
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Actually, as a Catholic (who is struggling with my faith), I don’t believe that. Most Protestants are ASSURED of their salvation, and do not worry about being “good enough” to get into heaven. Catholics, on the other hand, tend to be not as sure as to their salvation. When asking Catholics, the answer is usually “I hope so”, “I’m think so…I’m a good person”, etc. So, right or wrong, it appears that protestants are more assured.
 
mark_a said:
“Lord and savior”, yes. “Personal”, I still can’t figure it out.

I have never met Jesus. If I meet him in this life, I will have a heart attack and die on the spot.

There was much more to him than was written.

My dad I personally knew. There was much more to him than was ever written.

Personal is for bankers and pan pizzas. Any attempt to personalize Jesus is an insulting attempt to bring him to your own deficient level of understanding of him.

That’s my two cents, anyway.
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Wow. Even as a Catholic, I feel I have a personal relationship with Him. In fact, it is one of the most beautiful, unique relationships I have.
 
boppaid said:
Actually, as a Catholic (who is struggling with my faith), I don’t believe that.
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But you can know as you are walking out of the Confessional, even if you feel totally rotten (as I often do just after confessing my sins) that you are in the state of grace. You don’t have to feel anything; you did the thing that puts us in the state of grace, and therefore, you are in the state of grace.
Most Protestants are ASSURED of their salvation, and do not worry about being “good enough” to get into heaven.
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But they keep going back to the Altar Call, week after week.
Catholics, on the other hand, tend to be not as sure as to their salvation. When asking Catholics, the answer is usually “I hope so”, “I’m think so…I’m a good person”, etc. So, right or wrong, it appears that protestants are more assured.
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But we know how to remain in the state of grace - yes, we don’t try to predict our future behaviour, and we don’t pridefully assume that we will remain in the state of grace - but we have the choice to do that, and we know how to do it.

The Protestant doesn’t know if his Altar Call “took,” or not, though - so even though “once saved, always saved,” he keeps going back.
 
jmcrae said:
But you can know as you are walking out of the Confessional, even if you feel totally rotten (as I often do just after confessing my sins) that you are in the state of grace. You don’t have to feel anything; you did the thing that puts us in the state of grace, and therefore, you are in the state of grace.

But they keep going back to the Altar Call, week after week.

But we know how to remain in the state of grace - yes, we don’t try to predict our future behaviour, and we don’t pridefully assume that we will remain in the state of grace - but we have the choice to do that, and we know how to do it.

The Protestant doesn’t know if his Altar Call “took,” or not, though - so even though “once saved, always saved,” he keeps going back.
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Hi,
I didnt accept Christ at an altar call. Yes sometimes I question my salvation because Im human and it is difficult to get. Now that I have been studying God’s word for 3 years I am feeling more secure in my salvation. I think it is a matter of being a mature christian. Just because I doubt myself doesnt mean that it isnt true. It just means Im having a hard time with the truth because I live in a finite mind set. It is hard enough believing what I cannot see.😉 I dont pridefully assume anything. I just simply believe what God tells me and He assures me of my salvation. Who am I to question God anyway.:eek: God keeps me in a state of Grace–not me.
 
It’s important to follow along in your own copy of the Scriptures when discussing these things with Protestants, so that you can discern when they are adding their own interpretations to it.
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Hi,
I could say the same thing about reading along with catholics.😛 😃
 
jmcrae said:
Do you have a citation? It would be important to read it in context. Also, keep in mind that Protestants often “add commentary” as they are reading the Scriptures - not everything she said to you was actually written on the page that she was reading from.

It’s important to follow along in your own copy of the Scriptures when discussing these things with Protestants, so that you can discern when they are adding their own interpretations to it.
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I do have my own Catholic Bible, although he read from King James which is so much in error. In John 20:28 I believe is our confession, in their Bible it is in John 20:26 I believe. It isn’t the same. Then when I pointed out confession, he said he’d never seen that before. I thought they knew the Bible inside and out??
:confused:
 
jmcrae said:
If they did, they would be Catholic, since the context (the “inside out”) of the Bible is the Catholic Church. 😉
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Hi,
No one knows the bible inside out–not even the CC and that includes the Pope. If they say they do they are arrogant and lying.😉
 
Wow. I am the opposite I guess on confession. I feel so renewed after confession! I have been aiming for weekly even though its been more like every 2 weeks on average…

Its interesting to me how as Catholics we all get a different feeling from it, but its not about feelings we are comfortable with is it?

I was soooo nervous to go to confession that very first time… I almost passed out right there as I tried to speak…

But I pictured Jesus on the other side of me and I was fine! I sailed through it feeling like I was with him!!😃

I wish that i could give it a better expalination, but I just cant. Its not the same for everyone.

I am so happy about that sacrament, and grateful for it.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,
No one knows the bible inside out–not even the CC and that includes the Pope. If they say they do they are arrogant and lying.😉
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No, but I knew more about the Bible in my first three months of RCIA than I learned in 30 years as a Protestant, and I thought I knew my Bible - I had (still have) huge sections of it memorized, and I had read it through several times.

But for whatever reason, my eye always skipped over Jesus establishing the Church and the Sacraments, even though it’s plainly there - probably because I had nothing to connect these verses to - I couldn’t picture in my head what was going on in those passages, and because I couldn’t understand them, I just drove right past them.
 
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ALLFORHIM:
Hi,
I could say the same thing about reading along with catholics.😛 😃

Hi ALLFOR HIM!!

We have read it together!! I am thinking that we both help each other right?🙂
 
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