Tired of the way things are going

[benedictgal]

So are you going to pay to have trained musicians instead of volunteers. The entire Mass does not need to be in Gregorian Chant…

People involved in any liturgical capacity should receive proper formation. This surely includes those who serve as cantors, choir members, music directors and musicians. They should be trained in the documents of the Church. There are free resources available such as those offered by the Church Music Association of America.

The problem is that we have gotten used to setting the bar quite low when it comes to music in the Mass that we have forgotten that the Church does have her standards.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

However, form and content in worship mattered very much to God then as they do now. Jesus respected the rubrics of sacrificial cultic worship because they all pointed towards Him. They found their authentic meaning in His Sacrifice. Furthermore, because His own Father dictated the norms, they were all the more important Jesus.

The Church reminds us that we have a right to a properly celebrated Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Redemptionis Sacramentum further asserts that it is the right of the faithful to report such abuses to the bishop and, if the bishop does not act, directly to the Holy See.

Should you not at least at first speak to the priest?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

People involved in any liturgical capacity should receive proper formation. This surely includes those who serve as cantors, choir members, music directors and musicians. They should be trained in the documents of the Church. There are free resources available such as those offered by the Church Music Association of America.

The problem is that we have gotten used to setting the bar quite low when it comes to music in the Mass that we have forgotten that the Church does have her standards.

Or it it is entirely subjective…which some of it is.

 

[benedictgal]

So…it’s not their fault that they are distracted in Mass…and spending so much time nit picking? Why not concentrate on worshiping. If you have a problem with something such as a glass chalice…here’s a thought…have a charitable discussion with the priest later on. But if you spend all your time with your feathers ruffled because someone is holding hands during the Our Father…and are just grumbling about it in your heart…well good luck explaining that one to God later on…

It’s not about mere “nitpicking”. I personally find such a characterization offensive. When people care about the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it seems that they are often ridiculed. The glass chalice is a reprobate issue. It is not often that the Church uses such harsh language in liturgical documents, but, it uses it in this instance.

Hand-holding during the recitation of the Pater Noster is also an abuse because someone has taken it upon himself to introduce an element into the Mass that does not exist in the rubrics. Sacrosanctum Concilium specifically states that no one, not even the celebrant, is to add anything to the Mass on their own authority. Redemptionis Sacramentum affirms SC in this prohibition.

 

[benedictgal]

Or it it is entirely subjective…which some of it is.

Evidently, neither Pope Benedict XVI, Blessed Pope John Paul II nor Pope St. Pius X think so. Each has written authoritatively on the matter. In fact all three have gone so far as to say that the music used for the Mass needs purification.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

It’s not about mere “nitpicking”. I personally find such a characterization offensive. When people care about the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it seems that they are often ridiculed. The glass chalice is a reprobate issue. It is not often that the Church uses such harsh language in liturgical documents, but, it uses it in this instance.

Hand-holding during the recitation of the Pater Noster is also an abuse because someone has taken it upon himself to introduce an element into the Mass that does not exist in the rubrics. Sacrosanctum Concilium specifically states that no one, not even the celebrant, is to add anything to the Mass on their own authority. Redemptionis Sacramentum affirms SC in this prohibition.

Did you not see my advice to speak to the priest about the chalice? I don’t know the entire works of that but am assuming that you are correct on that. So…speak to the priest…stewing about it does not change anything.

As far as the hand holding…sorry…I find that nit picking…especially to the congregation. So…if I start praying the rosary during Mass…then it is an abuse because it wasn’t called for? Then a lot of people attend the TLM in earlier years were wrong.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Evidently, neither Pope Benedict XVI, Blessed Pope John Paul II nor Pope St. Pius X think so. Each has written authoritatively on the matter. In fact all three have gone so far as to say that the music used for the Mass needs purification.

You and I are never going to agree on the music…lets leave it at that. You don’t even agree with priests on that matters so sorry if I don’t just go with you on that…

But to the OP…if you want it changed…get involved. I know in our parish there were so people who wanted different more traditional music…so they formed their own choir and play at the earlier Mass…making it more traditional.

 

[ElToro]

And I don’t know why it’s so difficult to follow the rules, especially in this country, where wealth abounds.

I think there are many reasons it happens. Believe it or not, some priests don’t know the fine detail of the GIRM and RS as crazy as that sounds to some who have spent hours pouring over both documents and discussing it with other. Some priests and their supporting minions clearly love to “do their own thing.” Driven in some cases because they have been taught the rubrics are only “suggestions”, in other cases because they honestly believe their ideas are superior and still in other cases where they know what’s going on and they deliberately want to be defiant.

In one case I know our former pastor used a crystal chalice with a platinum base and a platinum paten. He used them because his aunt had given them to him and it made a huge, emotional point with him and the bishop had approved it. In my parish we used stemware and candy dishes for about a month while our communion set was being re-plated.

I am sure there are other reasons as well.

 

[ElToro]

Did you not see my advice to speak to the priest about the chalice? I don’t know the entire works of that but am assuming that you are correct on that. So…speak to the priest…stewing about it does not change anything.

As far as the hand holding…sorry…I find that nit picking…especially to the congregation. So…if I start praying the rosary during Mass…then it is an abuse because it wasn’t called for? Then a lot of people attend the TLM in earlier years were wrong.

“Stewing” about something like this is actually quite destructive. Pray on it and take action. If you cannot effect a change put it in God’s hands and either learn to ignore the problem or move to another parish.

People who get upset about spontaneous hand holding need to get a grip (no pun.) While we hear tales of people having their hands GRABBED, I would suggest most of those are myth.

FWIW, luturgical abuses and irregularities were much, much easlier to get away with in the olden days. The Mass was celebrated in a language that was foreign to most. One could often not see or hear what was happening on the altar. Today’s critics didn’t have the on-line resources they have today and possibly most of all, priests and bishop had a great deal more collective respect then they do today.

 

[benedictgal]

As far as the hand holding…sorry…I find that nit picking…especially to the congregation. So…if I start praying the rosary during Mass…then it is an abuse because it wasn’t called for? Then a lot of people attend the TLM in earlier years were wrong.

However, as I read your post, your statement might be read with a lens that might not have taken into account Summorum Pontificum, the Holy Father’s Motu Propio on the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. Things are a lot different in 2011 insofar as the EF is concerned. Pope Benedict XVI has made sure that the rubrics for the EF are to be followed.

Incidentally, I do not know if you’ve been to an EF Mass lately, but, things are rather different. People are praying the Mass. I know. I had that encounter a few months ago and to say that the folks who went to the EF were simply praying the rosary is engaging in generalities. That was then. Now, it is entirely different. We should not try to stereo-type things.

EDIT: And, as I re-read my post, I need to get used to my new contact lenses. I missed a few things.

 

[benedictgal]

“Stewing” about something like this is actually quite destructive. Pray on it and take action. If you cannot effect a change put it in God’s hands and either learn to ignore the problem or move to another parish.

People who get upset about spontaneous hand holding need to get a grip (no pun.) While we hear tales of people having their hands GRABBED, I would suggest most of those are myth.

FWIW, luturgical abuses and irregularities were much, much easlier to get away with in the olden days. The Mass was celebrated in a language that was foreign to most. One could often not see or hear what was happening on the altar. Today’s critics didn’t have the on-line resources they have today and possibly most of all, priests and bishop had a great deal more collective respect then they do today.

Again, the post makes accusations that are not generally true. I do respect priests and bishops; however, when it is a matter of liturgical abuse, there is a great concern when the rubrics and the mandates of the Holy See are not resepcted.

Insofar as hand-grabbing is concerned, I have had that happen to me on a couple of occasions. I refused and the woman who tried to do this reported me to the priest. He told her that I was correct in that regard. In fact, it came up on a homily later on about how we are not to add things to the Mass.

 

[ElToro]

So much of this is about our ability to control ourselves and many who post here seem to miss that in its entirety.

If I sat in my parish with a critical eye and the mindset of some sort of inspector or auditor I might well get agitated and upset. That’s unhealthy.

It’s not easy (especially not for me) to block out all the garbage that takes place in my parish. I practice the “ministry of closing my eyes” a great deal to things which really have no impact on the Mass, even if they break a rule. Closing my eyes (literally) is fairly easy. Blocking-out the the audio assaults are far more difficult but it certainly can be done through prayer.

Someone sits right in front of me once or two a month on Sundays who has asked me to give him a nudge just before Mass begins. His prayer and focus is amazing. I suspect he is a contemplative. I hope to realize such a gift one day.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

However, as I your post, your statement might be read with a lens that might not have taken into account Summorum Pontificum, the Holy Father’s Motu Propio on the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. Things are a lot different in 2011 insofar as the EF is concerned. Pope Benedict XVI has made sure that the rubrics for the EF are to be followed.

Incidentally, I do not know if you’ve been to an EF Mass lately, but, things are rather different. People are praying the Mass. I know. I had that encounter a few months ago and to say that the folks who went to the EF were simply praying the rosary is engaging in generalities. That was then. Now, it is entirely different. We should not try to stereo-type things.

Nope…not been to an EF…nor do I have a desire to…might cross my hands wrong and have someone comment…ok…maybe that’s not true…but it sure FEELS like it with some of the post on CAF.

We should not try to stereo-type? You mean like some posters do about the OF? But in all seriousness…I think I made my point. The rubics don’t tell us how we are supposed to clasp our hands in prayer either…so if I do it a different way then my neighbor…then that is wrong:shrug: I think it all has gotten out of hand (no pun intended)…and everyone has their own ideas and staunchness about it…instead of focusing on the reason we are there (which should NOT be just to fulfill our obligation). It’s this type of nit picking from my grandmother that originally had me leaving the church when I was a teenager…

 

[WoundedIcon]

Let me just be blunt: the Church says the naysayers here are wrong, so you’re wrong. It’s just wrong when Catholics won’t drop their own private judgments when Rome speaks. The arguments here should fall silent in a split-second the moment a Church document is cited and it agrees with one “side” against another. When the “nitpicky” opinions match with the Church’s then you’re mocking the Church when you mock us.

Metaphorically speaking, don’t blame the parent for disciplining their child for breaking a rule - blame the rule breaking kid. We’re not anal, we see things the right way and are distracted by those who don’t. The fault doesn’t lie with us, it’s with the here-you-go, handholding, alleluia chacha people. And then we have to play bad cop and we get all poopooed.

 

[Melchior_1]

There’s a lot of Orders, Societies of Apostolic Life, and movements who use more contemporary music settings. If they were all totally banned, why has a clarification not come down yet for it? Why does HH BXVI employ a charismatic (who is likely fine with contemporary style music) as his personal preacher? Why is the current Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the board of directors for OCP (and was the head of the group while being an Archbishop)?

 

[benedictgal]

There’s a lot of Orders, Societies of Apostolic Life, and movements who use more contemporary music settings. If they were all totally banned, why has a clarification not come down yet for it? Why does HH BXVI employ a charismatic (who is likely fine with contemporary style music) as his personal preacher? Why is the current Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the board of directors for OCP (and was the head of the group while being an Archbishop)?

One does not equate the other, Melchior. What you have presented is beside the point.In case you have not seen, there is no Praise and Worship style of music in the Papal Masses. Why? The Holy Father is using sacred music. The Sistine Chapel Choir has improved in both the quality of the voices and the selection. He also replaced the previous Papal MC with one who shares in his vision of what is sacred. Furthermore, there is going to be a division of sacred music in the CDWDS and they are actually going to examine this problem. They are well aware of the problems that exist with what is out there today.

 

[Stylites]

Someone sits right in front of me once or two a month on Sundays who has asked me to give him a nudge just before Mass begins. His prayer and focus is amazing. I suspect he is a contemplative. I hope to realize such a gift one day.

It’s nice to hear that someone actually immerses himself in prayer before Mass instead of glaring at others as the Liturgy Police.

 

[coolduude]

It’s nice to hear that someone actually immerses himself in prayer before Mass instead of glaring at others as the Liturgy Police.

Why is it that I’m the bad guy for wanting to follow the rules?

 

[Melchior_1]

One does not equate the other, Melchior. What you have presented is beside the point.In case you have not seen, there is no Praise and Worship style of music in the Papal Masses. Why? The Holy Father is using sacred music. The Sistine Chapel Choir has improved in both the quality of the voices and the selection. He also replaced the previous Papal MC with one who shares in his vision of what is sacred. Furthermore, there is going to be a division of sacred music in the CDWDS and they are actually going to examine this problem. They are well aware of the problems that exist with what is out there today.

If this is wild and out of control, a scourge upon the Church and an assault on Truth, it should be dealt with harshly and swiftly. Several issues have been dealt with quickly, however this specific one hasn’t. I look at Steubinville, NET Ministries, and CCO as examples where the foot could have been put down as it pertains to music, but it hasn’t yet. When Life Teen was issued corrections a few years ago, it had nothing to do with the style of music but rather other items. THEN would have been a time to issue musical corrections, but they didn’t.

I have mentioned this before, and have yet to hear a convincing argument; a charismatic
order who uses contemporary style music gets “promoted” to a Society of Apostolic Life, that must be seen as an endorsement over what they do. The Franciscan University of Steubinville continues what they do unabated, and if I’m not mistaken Rome approves of them.

 

[benedictgal]

If this is wild and out of control, a scourge upon the Church and an assault on Truth, it should be dealt with harshly and swiftly. Several issues have been dealt with quickly, however this specific one hasn’t. I look at Steubinville, NET Ministries, and CCO as examples where the foot could have been put down as it pertains to music, but it hasn’t yet. When Life Teen was issued corrections a few years ago, it had nothing to do with the style of music but rather other items. THEN would have been a time to issue musical corrections, but they didn’t.

I have mentioned this before, and have yet to hear a convincing argument; a charismatic
order who uses contemporary style music gets “promoted” to a Society of Apostolic Life, that must be seen as an endorsement over what they do. The Franciscan University of Steubinville continues what they do unabated, and if I’m not mistaken Rome approves of them.

Actually, just because a society or a movement receives Apostolic approval, that does not necessarily mean that everything is fine. We only have to look at the Neocatechumenal Way. In 2005, they were told that they needed to clean up the liturgical abuses that had crept into the their celebration of the liturgy. They were given a two-year time frame to correct this, lest they receive their charter. Even after the two years had elapsed, some of the abuses persisted. It was not until things were finally taken care of that they received their charter.

Now, as far as LifeTeen is concerned, the Fathers of the 2005 Synod had some very serious concerns about the music. Note what they said in their Instrumentum Laboris:

In other responses some lamented the poor quality of translations of liturgical texts and many musical texts in current languages, maintaining that they lacked beauty and were sometimes theologically unclear, thereby contributing to a weakening of Church teaching and to a misunderstanding of prayer. A few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.

This statement, made by the bishops themselves, found its answer in Sacramentum Caritatis, the Holy Father’s Apostolic Exhortation, especially in No. 42 wherein he writes that:

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. **Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). **Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

Thus, while LifeTeen was not mentioned by name, the fact that the kind of music it uses was duly noted in the Instrumentum Laboris (since it refers specifically to "Youth Masses) means that the Church is concerned about the type of music used for the Holy sacrifice of the Mass.