Tired of the way things are going

[benedictgal]

Why is it that I’m the bad guy for wanting to follow the rules?

You and I are in the same boat. I consider myself in good company with you, as Pope Benedict XVI is steering our boat.

 

[Stylites]

You and I are in the same boat. I consider myself in good company with you, as Pope Benedict XVI is steering our boat.

While it’s good that Pope Benedict XVI is steering our boat, I doubt he’s too happy with all the self-appointed sailing masters who only hear the siren sound of hand-holding love-rocks dashing against the liturgical hull, and not the dove cooing in the crows nest.

 

[benedictgal]

While it’s good that Pope Benedict XVI is steering our boat, I doubt he’s too happy with all the self-appointed sailing masters who only hear the siren sound of hand-holding love-rocks dashing against the liturgical hull, and not the dove cooing in the crows nest.

There is no need to resort to insulting language, Stylites. I have tried to be respectful of the opinions that you have expressed. However, to constantly refer to those of us who care about the integrity of the liturgy in derogatory terms is not charitable.

Please note what Redemptionis Sacramentum states:

1. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
   [183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

Thus, the Church entrusts the faithful, too, to do their part to ensure the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Masss. To simply refer to those of us who care about this as “liturgical police” is both insulting and uncharitable.

 

[Stylites]

Thus, the Church entrusts the faithful, too, to do their part to ensure the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Masss. To simply refer to those of us who care about this as “liturgical police” is both insulting and uncharitable.

As if it’s not an insult to say that others don’t care, eh? I happen to believe that a lowly swabbie such as myself on the good ship Grace can trust the captain and his staff to guide the ship, using the sure maps of the Holy Spirit. I am my own liturgy police: I police myself, and leave the policing of others to others.

 

[benedictgal]

As if it’s not an insult to say that others don’t care, eh? I happen to believe that a lowly swabbie such as myself on the good ship Grace can trust the captain and his staff to guide the ship, using the sure maps of the Holy Spirit. I am my own liturgy police: I police myself, and leave the policing of others to others.

However, when, in your posts, you refer to “liturgical police” it does not seem to be in the best light. The rest of us are also lowly squabbles; however, the Church does want us to help do our part to curb liturgical abuse. If you do not want to do anything, that is fine. That is your choice. However, please respect those of us who want to help.

Incidentally, if the Church did not want to involve her children in this task, she would not have specifically said so in Redemptionis Sacramentum.

 

[Stylites]

However, when, in your posts, you refer to “liturgical police” it does not seem to be in the best light. The rest of us are also lowly squabbles; however, the Church does want us to help do our part to curb liturgical abuse. If you do not want to do anything, that is fine. That is your choice. However, please respect those of us who want to help.

Incidentally, if the Church did not want to involve her children in this task, she would not have specifically said so in Redemptionis Sacramentum.

Wanting to help is fine. That’s what happened in Vatican II when the changes were made “in the spirit of Vatican II.” I just hope that future generations won’t be talking about the excesses of “the spirit of the reform of the reform” such as replacing expressions of love and joy with dour conformity.

 

[benedictgal]

Wanting to help is fine. That’s what happened in Vatican II when the changes were made “in the spirit of Vatican II.” I just hope that future generations won’t be talking about the excesses of “the spirit of the reform of the reform”.

I do not think that it would be a fair, let alone, accurate comparison. The authoritative documents of the Church, unlike 40 years ago, are available online. Furthermore, there was a huge, misguided attempt at experimentation that. lamentably, took on a life of its own. We have history to guide us so as to not repeat the mistakes of the past 40 years. Furthermore, as Pope Benedict XVI noted, there was a rupture in the hermeneutic of continuity that needs to be mended.

What is happening right now is a correction to the mistakes that were made. We are already on the right track with a revised English translation of the Roman Missal.

 

[ElToro]

Why is it that I’m the bad guy for wanting to follow the rules?

You’re not a “bad guy” for wanting to follow the rules. But when you are at Mass if perceived problems take your focus and not the Mass then you are horribly cheating yourself.

There is also the matter of personal preferences versus real problems. Some people like to think that anything that does not suit their personal tastes (such as music) are “abuses” and they are not.

There is also what I call the “niggling circle.” They whine about everything. From the actually important matters to niggling nothings. After awhile their pastor (and often their bishops) just tune them out. It become a circle of complaints followed by zero action, and on and on. That sort of thing can crush one’s faith.

 

[Stylites]

Someone sits right in front of me once or two a month on Sundays who has asked me to give him a nudge just before Mass begins. His prayer and focus is amazing. I suspect he is a contemplative. I hope to realize such a gift one day.

It’s nice to hear that someone actually immerses himself in prayer before Mass instead of glaring at others as the Liturgy Police.

 

[ElToro]

Wanting to help is fine. That’s what happened in Vatican II when the changes were made “in the spirit of Vatican II.” I just hope that future generations won’t be talking about the excesses of “the spirit of the reform of the reform” such as replacing expressions of love and joy with dour conformity.

I suspect quite a few people who get all wrapped-up in the Mass rubrics don’t have the advantage of understanding Church history. When the Church makes the huge changes that largely stemmed from VCII, it takes a long time for things to settle out. The close of VCII was what, about 40 or so years ago? A wink of the eye in the history of the Church, yet in those 40 years – particularly in the past 10-15 real reform and stability have taken hold.

I think the radical “reform of the reformers” will go down in history as reactionary people who really didn’t see the entire picture.

I want God to steer my -]boat/-] Church. The pope is certainly part of the afterguard but there is only one Helmsman – our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[ElToro]

It’s nice to hear that someone actually immerses himself in prayer before Mass instead of glaring at others as the Liturgy Police.

Every Sunday I pray that the clueless liturgical abusers and sour-faced liturgy police find another parish to plague. Stop impacting my liturgical life already!

 

[benedictgal]

You’re not a “bad guy” for wanting to follow the rules. But when you are at Mass if perceived problems take your focus and not the Mass then you are horribly cheating yourself.

There is also the matter of personal preferences versus real problems. Some people like to think that anything that does not suit their personal tastes (such as music) are “abuses” and they are not.

There is also what I call the “niggling circle.” They whine about everything. From the actually important matters to niggling nothings. After awhile their pastor (and often their bishops) just tune them out. It become a circle of complaints followed by zero action, and on and on. That sort of thing can crush one’s faith.

Perhaps you did not read the section from the Instrumentum Laboris that treated the issue of music. Inappropriate music can also be seen as an abuse. The Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist made that point quite clear. Four popes and a synod can’t be wrong on that one.

To refer to people who care about the liturgy as “nigglers” seems to me to be a bit disrespectful. The OP raises some legitimate concerns, issues that are quite serious. Both Cardinals Canizares-Lloera and Burke noted that bad liturgies can lead to a weakening in faith.

 

[Sarika]

As if it’s not an insult to say that others don’t care, eh? I happen to believe that a lowly swabbie such as myself on the good ship Grace can trust the captain and his staff to guide the ship, using the sure maps of the Holy Spirit. I am my own liturgy police: I police myself, and leave the policing of others to others.

It’s not that “others don’t care”, it’s that most Catholics are ignorant about the Liturgy, and when abuses creep in, they become affected by it without even knowing it. You say you can “trust the captain and his staff to guide the ship”, but the captain and his staff can’t possibly know what’s going on unless someone tells them. In fact, the captain has tried quite valiantly to guide the ship, but has encountered mutiny.

Just because a parish is fine with ignoring the guidelines of the Church does not mean that there aren’t any guidelines to follow!

 

[Melchior_1]

Four popes and a synod can’t be wrong on that one.

Several Popes, Vatican officials, Orders, and others have spoke in glowing terms about the charismatic renewal, which at times (several times) employs some contemporary Mass settings.

But some people here say they’re all wrong. Which is it?

 

[benedictgal]

Several Popes, Vatican officials, Orders, and others have spoke in glowing terms about the charismatic renewal, which at times (several times) employs some contemporary Mass settings.

But some people here say they’re all wrong. Which is it?

Melchor, these are two different things. Your logic is trying to use these movements to justify bad practices. Bear in mind that while Pope Benedict XVi supports the Neocatechumenal Movement, he did not support their handling of the liturgy and called them to correct the abuses. Thus, approval of a group does not necessarily correspond to approval of Mass settings.

The movement is not greater than the liturgy. While they form a part of the Church, they are still bound to obey the norms and guidelines set forth by the Church.

 

[ElToro]

It’s not that “others don’t care”, it’s that most Catholics are ignorant about the Liturgy, and when abuses creep in, they become affected by it without even knowing it. You say you can “trust the captain and his staff to guide the ship”, but the captain and his staff can’t possibly know what’s going on unless someone tells them. In fact, the captain has tried quite valiantly to guide the ship, but has encountered mutiny.

It’s not about ignorance, it’s about apathy. Apathy stemming from being being mistreated, ignored, disenfranchised. A huge number of Catholics have left the Church over the past 40-50 years. An even larger number go to Mass for about 50-55 minutes/week and THAT’S it.

The captain doesn’t need a constant flow of nasty letters. that does no one no good.

Just because a parish is fine with ignoring the guidelines of the Church does not mean that there aren’t any guidelines to follow!

Read that last sentance a couple of times…

 

[benedictgal]

It’s not about ignorance, it’s about apathy. Apathy stemming from being being mistreated, ignored, disenfranchised. A huge number of Catholics have left the Church over the past 40-50 years. An even larger number go to Mass for about 50-55 minutes/week and THAT’S it.

The captain doesn’t need a constant flow of nasty letters. that does no one no good.

Read that last sentance a couple of times…

There is also no need to make fun of people, El Toro. Lest we forget, Redemptionis Sacramentum does remind us that we should do everything in our power to protect the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Perhaps it should bear noting that one of the authors of RS was the current captain of this Barque of Peter, Pope Benedict XVI, himself, when he was prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. RS was done with the collaboration of both the CDF and the CDWDS. Remember, we pray as we believe. Slipshod liturgies lead to slipshod faith.

 

[ElToro]

Several Popes, Vatican officials, Orders, and others have spoke in glowing terms about the charismatic renewal, which at times (several times) employs some contemporary Mass settings.

But some people here say they’re all wrong. Which is it?

CR is a recognized charism within the Church. There is no prohibition against “contemporary Mass settings” so long as they follow the rubrics.

 

[Melchior_1]

Melchor, these are two different things. Your logic is trying to use these movements to justify bad practices. Bear in mind that while Pope Benedict XVi supports the Neocatechumenal Movement, he did not support their handling of the liturgy and called them to correct the abuses. Thus, approval of a group does not necessarily correspond to approval of Mass settings.

The movement is not greater than the liturgy. While they form a part of the Church, they are still bound to obey the norms and guidelines set forth by the Church.

See, this is what I don’t get; I refer to several movements and you say “Your logic is trying to use these movements to justify bad practices”, yet in the same paragraph you site BXVI’s handling of the Neocatechumenal movement as a situation.

Which is it?

Also, I find people being pretty charitable towards you and your opinions. Just because someone disagrees with what you’re saying doesn’t mean they’re being insulting, it means they disagree with you

 

[Padraig1972]

This one is definitely an abuse.

this is one of the reasons why I prefer the Latin Mass

I prefer the Latin mass too because it has something very Holy over it and things are more in a fashionable order. In Novos Ordo something has to happen all the time. And as mentioned by OP, i have witnessed things that just makes one wonder what is going on in our Church today.