Tithing - What is considered a "family"?

[ElizabethPH]

In my church bulletin every week they have a collection graph with a reminder that says 10% tithing: 5% Stewardship, 4% other, 1%CASA. I’m aware that the CCC says we give what we are able…so is my parish correct in adding this little tithing reminder?

 

[ElizabethPH]

Although I appreciate everyone’s comments, this topic has jumped the tracks.

I still don’t see the correlation of me being considered a “family” of one and a married couple with two incomes being considered a “family” on the same level as myself.

The topic isn’t really about tithing alone.

I don’t think that you are obliged to give as much as a family that has two incomes. That would be ridiculous. I’m a widow, no children… I don’t expect that I could afford to give as much as a family with a double income can. Or on the other hand; a family with a single income of the same as mine that has four children wouldn’t be able to give as much as I can. Did that make sense?
I don’'t know maybe I’m not understanding your question.

 

[azsuntea]

Although I appreciate everyone’s comments, this topic has jumped the tracks.

I still don’t see the correlation of me being considered a “family” of one and a married couple with two incomes being considered a “family” on the same level as myself.

The topic isn’t really about tithing alone.

consider the correlation in considering a married couple with no children and two incomes as being financially equivalent to a married couple with children at home and one income. Or a family with a father working two jobs so that the mother can stay home and care for a disabled child.

Give what is appropriate… That which you honestly know is fair.

 

[azsuntea]

…
But notwithstanding that quibble, I don’t think I have ever heard a very good explanation of just what it is we ought to contribute, and what counts for what. I apologized once to our parish priest because my contribution was far from 10%, even of my net after taxes. But I was spending thousands every year to give my children a Catholic education. The priest told me that tuition counted, and not to worry about it…

.

Wow! With two children still in our parish school and the the youngest two, twins who’s medical problems have left us with years to pay on medical bills, a year away we were told that our contributions were no longer enough to be considered active members of the parish and would have tuition increased to reflect same. This came from the financial director. When talking to the principal we were told to go directly to the new pastor, we decided to look at the situation as a goose from the Spirit. We are now in our second year of home schooling

 

[YADA]

Leah wrote

In the future, I will give to my parish what I think it needs

this is a sentiment that is not based upon what the parish may require to stay solvent. It also appears to fail [admittedly IMHO] to be based upon prayerful discernment.

and here

I think 10% is too much. Back in the days of the OT, that 10% was given to the Levites to do basically everything, there were no secular taxes.

I can’t imagine paying 30% to the government, then paying another 10% to the Church, effectively paying 40% income tax!

I think you should just give what you can afford, after expenses.

Thi person thinks that you should give from your excess [without regard to factual financial requirements and also considers the government tax a charitable donation [even though those taxes go in part to support abortion and other morally reprehensible causes.]

As for my comments about parishes closing … that was based upon articles and interviews I’ve read where parishes closed for lack of financial support and comments that sounded similar to comments here at the CAF on threads that discuss parish support sot exclusive to this thread but in general. I am sorry if I did not make that point clear.

There seems to be much against abiout parish support…I feel that we should foster discernment about charitable giving; including parish support and catholic education.

Why does the lack of a 10% dictate make us feel free to begin our thought process at zero or consider our parish support after we have allocated all of our other expenditures?

 

[Seatuck]

This is not true for all people, probably for *most *people.

And, remember that *tithing *is NOTa requirement of the Church therefore framing it as “if you are truly giving your 10%” is not appropriate. That phrasing implies those who do not give 10% of gross income are doing something wrong.

Sorry , didn’t mean to imply anyone was doing anything wrong. I have heard several speakers say thought that the churches intent when choosing to not have a magic number of giving was to encourage more not less. It is a matter of discernment.

 

[Seatuck]

Although I appreciate everyone’s comments, this topic has jumped the tracks.

I still don’t see the correlation of me being considered a “family” of one and a married couple with two incomes being considered a “family” on the same level as myself.

The topic isn’t really about tithing alone.

It has to do with being an independent adult. Either you are or you are dependent upon someone else for income. The latter person should not be registered with the church as an individual in this case. The church uses the language of family figuratively. Because the bible sets things up this way in the usage of bridegroom , bride etc. A grown up individual has his/own responsibilities to the church. There are reasons why a person over a certain age is not considered able to give for example mental disability or physical disability that prevents earning an income. This is when the giving of our means comes into play.

It doesn’t matter whether the family has two incomes or one. The widow that is mentioned in the Gospel gave much more than 10% . She was not removed from the responsibility of giving because she was a poor widow. God of course rewarded her for her generosity. She is our model for giving.

 

[1ke]

Although I appreciate everyone’s comments, this topic has jumped the tracks.

I still don’t see the correlation of me being considered a “family” of one and a married couple with two incomes being considered a “family” on the same level as myself.

The topic isn’t really about tithing alone.

I’m not understanding what your issue is.

Are you upset because you were asked to give the same as a “family” of 2, 3, 4? Those family have proportionately more income, possibly (if the wife works), but also proportionately more expenses with more mouths to feed, more water, electricity, insurance, etc.

Single people often, but not always, have more disposable income than families.

However, as I pointed out earlier, the pastor should not have asked for a set amount from every family, it should be based on ability to give. Some families can likely give much more than $4K and some may need to give much less.

If you gave what you thought you could give, then that’s fine.

I’m still not really sure exactly what your question is here.

 

[1ke]

While what you say is true, I still feel that pastors publish this information to shame parishioners into giving more.

You are ascribing all sorts of motives to the pastor that are likely not there.

Both parishes I have been a member of post the weekly collection and the weekly need. It’s not to “shame” anyone. It’s to inform everyone.

The parishioners are the stewards of the parish, and they have a **right **to know the financial condition of the parish. They also have a **responsibility ****for **the financial condition of the parish.

Publishing weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly income and expenses keeps people from being “surprised” or claiming that they didn’t know what financial condition the parish is in.

It’s the parishioners’ money after all. If it weren’t posted, there would likely be parishioners accusing the priest of trying to hide the information from them.

Priests can’t win.

Currently, in my own situation, it is very difficult for me to tithe very much because I’m not working, and have not received access to 401(k) and IRA money and the large family nest egg has not come into my possession.

The Church does not ask you to give when you cannot do so.

In five to ten years, I can give the big bucks.

Then, when you are financially able to do so, by all means give generously.

 

[Catholic90]

God Loves a Cheerful Giver, that’s how much you should be giving. 10% is a good place to begin thinking about starting…adjusting up or down as your circumstances dictate. To the individual who is paying 30% of their income in taxes…if you’re making that much you can most probably afford 10% for God. A 30% income bracket is a LARGE income.

Mortgage, Property Taxes, Tuition for 3 in Catholic School, Food for 3 teenagers, Health Insurance, Disability Insurance, Life Insurance, Property Insurance, Car Insurance, Utilities, Maintenance…
Not so large once the essentials are taken care of. Don’t be so quick to judge.

We donate well over 1000 hours of volunteer hours to our parish every year.

 

[dranzal]

I’m not understanding what your issue is.

Are you upset because you were asked to give the same as a “family” of 2, 3, 4? Those family have proportionately more income, possibly (if the wife works), but also proportionately more expenses with more mouths to feed, more water, electricity, insurance, etc.

Single people often, but not always, have more disposable income than families.

However, as I pointed out earlier, the pastor should not have asked for a set amount from every family, it should be based on ability to give. Some families can likely give much more than $4K and some may need to give much less.

If you gave what you thought you could give, then that’s fine.

I’m still not really sure exactly what your question is here.

This is what I was also thinking. A family of “one” or single person often has a substantially smaller dwelling with a substantially smaller mortgage. If my dh was single with his current job he’d be rolling in money because he would likely have a 2-3 br 1200sf or so house or apt which would cost a little more than half of our current 4 br house. ALL the bills with the exception of the federal taxes would be substantially less. Add to that the fact that he would likely have only one vehicle.

If anything, the single person often has more disposable income (all other things being equal).

Now please don’t be ridiculous and try to compare some single person’s income from flipping burgers to a CEO with a family income. That’s just silly.

As has been stated repeatedly, a person or family should prayerfully consider what they are able to give, then add a little more to make it a true sacrifice.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

My parish just spent 2.6 million on a new parish hall (read: “adult entertainment and bureaucracy center”) and $70,000 on a totally negligent, halfhearted “restoration” of the rather dilapidated church building. So, does my daughter need to borrow more money to attend her Catholic graduate school so my parish can hire all kinds of paid “ministers” to conduct seminars on loving, caring and sharing, and buy appliances, furnishings and utensils for the adult parties?

I think this gets to the heart of the issue. If a priest is going to stand up in the pulpit and demand that his already overstretched congregation give more, then he better be sure he’s spending their hard-earned money wisely.

As for comparing Protestant and Catholic giving, that’s apples and oranges. Can someone put that side by side with other statistics? Like Protestant and Catholic income? Or numbers of children in Protestant households vs. Catholic households?

Their church structures are also very different. Their congregations are more autonomous than ours. Often they are separate financial entities (without the perception of “deep pockets” that some of our dioceses have.) The pastor’s salary and family support comes from the people in his congregation, some of which become very wealthy mega-churches. And I don’t think many of them take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

And many Protestant Churches don’t run hospitals and orphanages and school systems.

Yes, there is a need for Catholics to contribute, but as I said earlier, one cannot dictate one household’s ability to pay versus another. And a single person is still a member of the Church Family. They benefit from the priests being there to give sacraments. They will want the church there when it’s time to get married or buried. But there is also more than one way to donate to the Church. If you could be making time and a half overtime and you choose instead to be doing volunteer work at the parish, that time is money also.

And there is also another intangible here. Money is money and it’s spent and it’s gone. Some families may not have enough to give 10 percent. But the children they care for may grow up and be the future priests and nuns in the Church. For a pastor to say a family isn’t giving enough for the children to rate tuition is extremely short sighted, to say the least. If I were that family, I’d find a new parish. And a vocation from my family would not be credited to the former parish.

Pastors can end up with wonderful $2.5 million buildings and no one to staff them in the future if they are not careful.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Leah wrote this is a sentiment that is not based upon what the parish may require to stay solvent. It also appears to fail [admittedly IMHO] to be based upon prayerful discernment.

and here

Thi person thinks that you should give from your excess [without regard to factual financial requirements and also considers the government tax a charitable donation [even though those taxes go in part to support abortion and other morally reprehensible causes.]

As for my comments about parishes closing … that was based upon articles and interviews I’ve read where parishes closed for lack of financial support and comments that sounded similar to comments here at the CAF on threads that discuss parish support sot exclusive to this thread but in general. I am sorry if I did not make that point clear.

There seems to be much against abiout parish support…I feel that we should foster discernment about charitable giving; including parish support and catholic education.

Why does the lack of a 10% dictate make us feel free to begin our thought process at zero or consider our parish support after we have allocated all of our other expenditures?

I believe you’re quoting the wrong person. I don’t recall saying those things.

 

[Ridgerunner]

And a single person is still a member of the Church Family. They benefit from the priests being there to give sacraments. They will want the church there when it’s time to get married or buried. But there is also more than one way to donate to the Church. If you could be making time and a half overtime and you choose instead to be doing volunteer work at the parish, that time is money also.

It was my pleasure to know a single gentleman; a retired railroad worker I believe, who was always “the one” who volunteered for things that needed to be done around a neighboring parish. He was pretty skilled, and could do light carpentry, painting, caulking and other refinishing; and did so, both in the church and the school. He was also a generous donor. Nobody knew what his income was or what he was worth, but he was a good donor. At his death, he left about 1/3 of his estate to the parish.

Now, this fellow had no children, no wife, and never had. He had only one sister, who was working-class, but comfortable and not in need. He had a small apartment, very sparsely furnished and an old car that he kept in good operating condition. The guy was a saint, from all outward appearances, and I think he genuinely is one today.

But there are others who have people who depend on them; children, grandchildren, spouse, friends in need.

I guess I would have to say that someone who lives modestly and does for others with the resources he/she has, is not greatly different from that retired railroader.

 

[ElizabethPH]

No, it is not.

Please show me where the Church requires TITHING. It does not.

I am quite familiar with the precepts of the Church, none of which require tithing.

Tithing is not the same as assisting “with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability.”

I do understand this…and know it.

But every week in my parish bulletin there listed is the general stewardship collection, weekly, ytd, goal etc. And with this is a reminder that says exactly: "10% Tithing: 5% General Stewardship, 4% Other, 1% CASA.

According to my understanding the are incorrect in adding this reminder. Or might they just be using it as a guideline.

 

[1ke]

I do understand this…and know it.

But every week in my parish bulletin there listed is the general stewardship collection, weekly, ytd, goal etc. And with this is a reminder that says exactly: "10% Tithing: 5% General Stewardship, 4% Other, 1% CASA.

According to my understanding the are incorrect in adding this reminder. Or might they just be using it as a guideline.

There is nothing wrong with using guidelines. However, using it as a requirement is something different.

 

[MaryD7]

You are ascribing all sorts of motives to the pastor that are likely not there.

Both parishes I have been a member of post the weekly collection and the weekly need. It’s not to “shame” anyone. It’s to inform everyone.

The parishioners are the stewards of the parish, and they have a **right **to know the financial condition of the parish. They also have a **responsibility ****for **the financial condition of the parish.

Publishing weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly income and expenses keeps people from being “surprised” or claiming that they didn’t know what financial condition the parish is in.

It’s the parishioners’ money after all. If it weren’t posted, there would likely be parishioners accusing the priest of trying to hide the information from them.

Priests can’t win.

I know that for a while under the old pastor there was a breakdown in the bulletin about the monies collected and where they went. It was laid out for all to see that there were gas and oil bills, staff wages, etc. I know that I personally appreciated knowing how much money was being collected and where the funds were going. If I had just seen the amount collected I would have mistakenly believed that it should be more than enough to cover the costs of the parish. Running a parish, its outreach programs and school runs into some big bucks!

 

[YADA]

Leah your post # 6 had the quotation about giving what you think…the other quote was from another poster.

And canon law requires that every parish have a finance council sometimes called the administrative council. Parish finances are open and have parishioner (name removed by moderator)ut and follow “best accounting” principals and practices. If you have a problem with parish finances…ask, offerto be on the council and become involved…

 

[MaryD7]

God Loves a Cheerful Giver, that’s how much you should be giving. 10% is a good place to begin thinking about starting…adjusting up or down as your circumstances dictate. To the individual who is paying 30% of their income in taxes…if you’re making that much you can most probably afford 10% for God. A 30% income bracket is a LARGE income.

That certainly depends on where you live. I live in NYC and we have state and city taxes on top of federal taxes. If one makes $50k annually with no deductions you will be taxed upwards of 40%. Then take at least a $1,000 for rent, plus cost of commute, food, utility bills, etc., it really doesn’t leave a lot left over. Then try to raise a family on that. It’s hard to raise a family here on $75,000.

And you can forget about buying a house. How do you save up money for a down payment on a house when all your money goes to rent? Houses here are at least $500,000 in decent neighborhoods. For a conventional mortgage that’s $100,000 plus closing costs. Ack!

You’re right though, God does love a cheerful giver. A person/family should give what they can and do so with a willing heart.

 

[YADA]

MaryD,

One must have faith in God to provide. In my experience, when we give less generously [as in focused upon what we make and how far we have o stretch it and therefor give from abundance] we struggled financially. Many worries and not much left…

When we made a decision to focus on God’s gifts and giving back in relation to those gifts…God has responded and provided.

My husband says he is amazed at what we donate in annual dollars [we set a general priority and day to day finaces bill paying, etc is my responsibilty] when we do our taxes each year. We are not rich; no six figure salaries here! We live well, thanks to God. We do not miss the money given in thanksgiving. We can always “want” for many things bit we have more then we “need”…in our experience God is generous