You know, I asked my hometown parish priest the same question. If the Mass as established at the Council of Trent was declared “free from error,” why did they have to change it? I never got a straight answer, so I asked the bishop the same thing when he came to our parish. He said laypeople shouldn’t be studying theology.
Does he know of Dr. Scott Hahn, for example?
'free from error" would mean theological error and doesn’t mean that there can’t be changes later on. Quoting a bishop without the context and how he said what you are saying he said is a bit of a trap. There is a joke, “don’t practice medicine without a license”. in other words, people get a little medical knowledge then they run off with the little they know and try to play doctors on themselves and others based on a little they know. The Bishop probably meant that in that type of context. A little theology, reading GIRM, cannon law etc gives too many to go off and think that they are now experts on the liturgy, theology etc. Protestants usually do that with the Bible. They read the Bible and then they become arm chair experts. Most of the “liturgy abuse” complaints are more about personal tastes and are abuse only in the imaginations of the people that hold them. I would bet that is what the Bishop meant by the questions you were trying to nail him on.
So you are now a better Catholic for it?
Well said, River Rock. Exactly the way I feel. I have been battling to get a TLM for years. Finally it is close enough for me to attend every Sunday. I do not attack other Catholics. All I want is to be left alone with other like minded Catholics to worship in the old Mass. After all these years I finally feel fulfilled.
I don’t see anything wrong with praying for “the return of the TLM as sole worship” if this is something you want.
I doubt that liturgical abuses are the only reason, but I suspect this is what it causes there to be such strong feelings about it. People tend to act on emotions that come from their personal experiences.
I never said I wanted it to be the norm. Some others most assuredly do. Yes, I know for a fact that I have seen abuses, lots of them over the years. As to other posters, I can see no valid reason for them to lie about having seen them. I am glad that you and others have never had to live through the abuses as I have and am glad that you have only been to reverent Masses. they should all be that way.
Mike, some of us are old enough to have lived through the abuses in the old tridentine liturgy. Perhaps these have been corrected over the years, It was enough for me never to go back.
All of the liturgies I attend have been beautifully celebrated, with a few minor exceptions that I would not label as an “gravissima” abuse.
I think all of the serious issues you allude to stem from the all to common lack of “pure and correct liturgy,” as you put it.
yes, this is exactly correct. My husband is old enough to remember the Mass before Vatican II, he doesn’t want anything to do with a EF Mass and I think a majority of Catholics feel the same way too. There are bigger issues at hand. The Mass has been revised, adjusted and modified in 2000 years. I would wagger that if those who want all Mass to go back to pre-Vatican II went to a Mass from the 1st century, they would cry abuse even if officiated by St Peter himself.Mike, some of us are old enough to have lived through the abuses in the old tridentine liturgy. Perhaps these have been corrected over the years, It was enough for me never to go back.
With patience and time, any of the abuses that were prevalent during the period allowed for experimentation in the OF will disappear. Many already have.
What people label as abuse is often their personal dislike for practices lawfully allowed by the Church. Since it is foreign to their minds, because they cannot equate them with the TLM of old, they perceive these permissions as evil, abusive, wrongfully allowed, etc.
The internet doesn’t help, either. Having instant access to air their complaints, it is almost like a plague infecting anyone who reads them, if they do not have access to the true teachings of the Church. If I were to ask anyone in my diocese their opinions of the TLM, I would most likely hear, “what’s TLM?”
Sirach…I have wondered about this for some time.Mike, some of us are old enough to have lived through the abuses in the old tridentine liturgy. Perhaps these have been corrected over the years, It was enough for me never to go back.
With patience and time, any of the abuses that were prevalent during the period allowed for experimentation in the OF will disappear. Many already have.
What people label as abuse is often their personal dislike for practices lawfully allowed by the Church. Since it is foreign to their minds, because they cannot equate them with the TLM of old, they perceive these permissions as evil, abusive, wrongfully allowed, etc.
The internet doesn’t help, either. Having instant access to air their complaints, it is almost like a plague infecting anyone who reads them, if they do not have access to the true teachings of the Church. If I were to ask anyone in my diocese their opinions of the TLM, I would most likely hear, “what’s TLM?”
You know, most Catholics still do not seem to understand the Mass or participate any better today with the OF. The statistics on belief in the Real Presence and Mass attendence support this.
As am I. In fact I am old enough to have served Mass for years before Vatican II. Were there abuses, yes, some. The most prevalent one seemed to be that the Priest would go through the Mass quickly, not saying each word clearly if at all in some cases. Although in fairness that usually happened during daily Mass and seldom on Sundays and Holy days. The entire Traditional Mass was so stylized and rigid that there really wasn’t much of an opportunity for many abuses to occur. Now it is so free flowing that it appears that the Priest can really do pretty much what he wants.Mike, some of us are old enough to have lived through the abuses in the old tridentine liturgy. Perhaps these have been corrected over the years, It was enough for me never to go back.
With patience and time, any of the abuses that were prevalent during the period allowed for experimentation in the OF will disappear. Many already have.
What people label as abuse is often their personal dislike for practices lawfully allowed by the Church. Since it is foreign to their minds, because they cannot equate them with the TLM of old, they perceive these permissions as evil, abusive, wrongfully allowed, etc.
The internet doesn’t help, either. Having instant access to air their complaints, it is almost like a plague infecting anyone who reads them, if they do not have access to the true teachings of the Church. If I were to ask anyone in my diocese their opinions of the TLM, I would most likely hear, “what’s TLM?”
