S
Spirithound
Guest
Right, and “austerity” in the way that we are using it here has nothing to do with money.
- Status
L
Layman
Guest
Neither are we poor in music, prayers or rubrics but they have been removed or diminished. Funny to see a stripped-down Mass in a bare church touted as a good. As in funny-peculiar.
I attended one of the few sung Triduums in the entire UK at Easter. Now, that’s poverty.
I attended one of the few sung Triduums in the entire UK at Easter. Now, that’s poverty.
S
SpiritusSanctus
Guest
They don’t want to talk about him because he ruined their modernist plans. Plus, they might be upset that he received a few votes to be Pope even though he was never a Cardinal!No one said that he was insane or heretical. He was disobedient. But this is not abou the Archbishop. First, the man is deceased. Let him rest in preace. Secondly, to use an excommunicated bishop to defend a position does not earn many graces or friends within the Church structure.
In fact, one of the conditions of the talks with the SSPX was that Archbishop Lefebvre would not be brought up in the discussions. This was a condition set by the Holy Father and by Cardinal Levada.
I’m not about to continue this discussion, which up to now has proceeded warmly, if the Archbishop becomes a part of it. If the Vatican does not want to discuss the Archbishop, then we should follow its example and avoid this subject.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
S
Spirithound
Guest
Are you saying that the way the Trappists celebrate Mass is bad?
L
Layman
Guest
I think all Masses should be as ornate as possible. Even monastic ones. Give everyone a pale reflection of the glory of Heaven. Motivating!
If by austerity you mean the iconoclasm that has occured in the Latin Rite since the 1950’s, I can’t approve of that.
If you are arguing that, because the Masses of some religious are bare, then stripping the Mass generally throughout Roman Catholic Christendom is acceptable, then I can’t agree.
Once again, the argument seems to be:
If it was done anywhere or at any time in Catholic Rites, then it’s fine to insert it or take it away at a secular Sunday Roman Catholic Mass 1969 - 2010.
When, in truth, I think it’s just people pushing for things they like. Married priests? There’s a precedent. Dancing at Mass? Kind David, step up! CITH? Where’s that quote from St.Cyril? etc.
Possible non-sequitur: I read, possibly on a priest’s blog, that when Pope Benedict was elected, there were tears amongst some clergy/religious in St. Peter’s Square. And they weren’t tears of joy, either.
Sort of thing that makes me feel all giggly inside.
If by austerity you mean the iconoclasm that has occured in the Latin Rite since the 1950’s, I can’t approve of that.
If you are arguing that, because the Masses of some religious are bare, then stripping the Mass generally throughout Roman Catholic Christendom is acceptable, then I can’t agree.
Once again, the argument seems to be:
If it was done anywhere or at any time in Catholic Rites, then it’s fine to insert it or take it away at a secular Sunday Roman Catholic Mass 1969 - 2010.
When, in truth, I think it’s just people pushing for things they like. Married priests? There’s a precedent. Dancing at Mass? Kind David, step up! CITH? Where’s that quote from St.Cyril? etc.
Possible non-sequitur: I read, possibly on a priest’s blog, that when Pope Benedict was elected, there were tears amongst some clergy/religious in St. Peter’s Square. And they weren’t tears of joy, either.
Sort of thing that makes me feel all giggly inside.
J
jpy15026
Guest
Historic Latin Mass in Nation’s Capital
Washington*, D.C. s traditional Latin Solemn High Pontifical Mass attracts thousands*
Kenneth J. Wolfe
REMANNT COLUMNIST, Washington, D.C.
The Basilica of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C. is the largest church in America and among the ten biggest in size in the world. It officially seats approximately 3,500 people.
Every one of the pews on Saturday, 24 April 2010 was full, with several hundred people standing in the back of the Great Upper Church. The first traditional Latin Mass using the high altar in 45 years was offered as a Pontifical High Mass by Tulsa Bishop Edward Slattery, with around 100 priests, brothers and seminarians serving as ministers and assisting. Dozens of laymen served as torchbearers, acolytes and all of the other various positions necessary to offer the grand liturgy.
Who would have imagined this just five years ago? Back then there were three traditional Latin Mass sites in the Archdiocese of Washington, one in the Archdiocese of Baltimore and an emphatic zero in the Diocese of Arlington, Va.
Then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger became pope. Despite the radically anti-Latin Mass bishop of Arlington, for instance, over one in six priests and parishes now offer the traditional Mass in that diocese.
One man can surely make a difference when he is the pope. The Mass at the Nationa] Shrine was billed as a celebration for the pope, in fact! Young priests from all over the area came in cassock, surplice and biretta to process with a bishop - and William Cardinal Baum, retired archbishop of Washington - in a Mass for Benedict’s fifth anniversary. The basilica shrine’s choir, under the direction of Dr. Peter Latona, sang Palestrina’s “Missa 'Tu es Petrus*” as the ordinary setting of the Mass, with its corresponding motet, as well as Joao Lourenco Rebelo’s "Panis angelicas,"
The liturgy was preceded by several local children’s choirs singing from the apse and nearby areas, sometimes accompanied by a small pipe organ placed by a side altar exclusively for their use. The look of joy on the faces of those youngsters was nearly as precious as the delight of their parents and the congregation hearing such angelic voices setting the sanctuary for the big Mass.
The cappa magna procession was out of this world and elevated the office of the prelate to its fitting level. The congregation, seeing the long, ample garment with its enormous train knew that they were witnessing something a lot bigger than an average liturgy. They were about to pray as the saints would pray when a shepherd was present.
The procession was earth shattering. So many priests. So many brothers. So many men. So many boys. So many knights - Malta, Columbus, Holy Sepulcher, Constantinian Order of Saint George… The organ, played by Dr. Latona, built and swelled as the sanctuary hosted all of the vested participants - the bishop, the deacon, the subdeacon, the assistant priests, the assistant deacons, the subdeacon of the cross, the masters of ceremonies and the many acolytes and bearers (boat bearer,. candle bearer, book bearer, gremial bearer and so on). Familiar faces were seen under the birettas of the ministers from the region and the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter. Many more held their birettas as they processed to sit in choir. The Dominicans were there. Canons were there. Secular and religious were there. It seemed some of the best clergy from the East Coast - and then some - were there.
A family of 11 from Harrisburg watched in awe. A Hungarian couple drove from Cleveland just to witness this historic Mass. EWTN covered every minute of the procession and Mass, with Fathers John Zuhlsdorf and Calvin Goodwin, F.S.S.P. giving the viewing audience helpful commentary.
Our local priests could not have looked happier. Monsignor Charles Pope, Monsignor K. Bartholomew Smith and Father Paul Scalia each had ministerial duties, while dozens of other excellent priests from the area signed up to distribute communion. The sacrament was given using the altar rail and over a dozen side chapels fitted with kneelers for the occasion.
Saturday, 24 April 2010 was a day of rejoicing. It was easily the grandest, highest and largest Mass in the United States in many decades. For those of us born after Vatican II, it was the biggest liturgical event we have ever witnessed in America
We have come a long, long way in the past five years. There have been bumps and obstacles for sure, but several thousand Catholics - many of whom only knew the novus ordo service - traveling to the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception for a three-hour traditional Latin Mass is something that is the direct result of Pope Benedict’s liturgical actions (not just words), prayer and the fervent dedication and persuasion of so many traditionalists who have pragmatically, strategically and militantly advanced the cause to get to this point.
Washington*, D.C. s traditional Latin Solemn High Pontifical Mass attracts thousands*
Kenneth J. Wolfe
REMANNT COLUMNIST, Washington, D.C.
The Basilica of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C. is the largest church in America and among the ten biggest in size in the world. It officially seats approximately 3,500 people.
Every one of the pews on Saturday, 24 April 2010 was full, with several hundred people standing in the back of the Great Upper Church. The first traditional Latin Mass using the high altar in 45 years was offered as a Pontifical High Mass by Tulsa Bishop Edward Slattery, with around 100 priests, brothers and seminarians serving as ministers and assisting. Dozens of laymen served as torchbearers, acolytes and all of the other various positions necessary to offer the grand liturgy.
Who would have imagined this just five years ago? Back then there were three traditional Latin Mass sites in the Archdiocese of Washington, one in the Archdiocese of Baltimore and an emphatic zero in the Diocese of Arlington, Va.
Then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger became pope. Despite the radically anti-Latin Mass bishop of Arlington, for instance, over one in six priests and parishes now offer the traditional Mass in that diocese.
One man can surely make a difference when he is the pope. The Mass at the Nationa] Shrine was billed as a celebration for the pope, in fact! Young priests from all over the area came in cassock, surplice and biretta to process with a bishop - and William Cardinal Baum, retired archbishop of Washington - in a Mass for Benedict’s fifth anniversary. The basilica shrine’s choir, under the direction of Dr. Peter Latona, sang Palestrina’s “Missa 'Tu es Petrus*” as the ordinary setting of the Mass, with its corresponding motet, as well as Joao Lourenco Rebelo’s "Panis angelicas,"
The liturgy was preceded by several local children’s choirs singing from the apse and nearby areas, sometimes accompanied by a small pipe organ placed by a side altar exclusively for their use. The look of joy on the faces of those youngsters was nearly as precious as the delight of their parents and the congregation hearing such angelic voices setting the sanctuary for the big Mass.
The cappa magna procession was out of this world and elevated the office of the prelate to its fitting level. The congregation, seeing the long, ample garment with its enormous train knew that they were witnessing something a lot bigger than an average liturgy. They were about to pray as the saints would pray when a shepherd was present.
The procession was earth shattering. So many priests. So many brothers. So many men. So many boys. So many knights - Malta, Columbus, Holy Sepulcher, Constantinian Order of Saint George… The organ, played by Dr. Latona, built and swelled as the sanctuary hosted all of the vested participants - the bishop, the deacon, the subdeacon, the assistant priests, the assistant deacons, the subdeacon of the cross, the masters of ceremonies and the many acolytes and bearers (boat bearer,. candle bearer, book bearer, gremial bearer and so on). Familiar faces were seen under the birettas of the ministers from the region and the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter. Many more held their birettas as they processed to sit in choir. The Dominicans were there. Canons were there. Secular and religious were there. It seemed some of the best clergy from the East Coast - and then some - were there.
A family of 11 from Harrisburg watched in awe. A Hungarian couple drove from Cleveland just to witness this historic Mass. EWTN covered every minute of the procession and Mass, with Fathers John Zuhlsdorf and Calvin Goodwin, F.S.S.P. giving the viewing audience helpful commentary.
Our local priests could not have looked happier. Monsignor Charles Pope, Monsignor K. Bartholomew Smith and Father Paul Scalia each had ministerial duties, while dozens of other excellent priests from the area signed up to distribute communion. The sacrament was given using the altar rail and over a dozen side chapels fitted with kneelers for the occasion.
Saturday, 24 April 2010 was a day of rejoicing. It was easily the grandest, highest and largest Mass in the United States in many decades. For those of us born after Vatican II, it was the biggest liturgical event we have ever witnessed in America
We have come a long, long way in the past five years. There have been bumps and obstacles for sure, but several thousand Catholics - many of whom only knew the novus ordo service - traveling to the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception for a three-hour traditional Latin Mass is something that is the direct result of Pope Benedict’s liturgical actions (not just words), prayer and the fervent dedication and persuasion of so many traditionalists who have pragmatically, strategically and militantly advanced the cause to get to this point.
M
MarkThompson
Guest
Layman, you’re just pushing for things you like, don’t you get it? I’m with you on probably 90% of it all, but let’s not pretend that isn’t what’s happening.
L
Layman
Guest
Ah, a variation of the riposte “That’s just your opinion”.
Untrue.
A curious thing has happened in the body of the Bride Of Christ. We have a section of the church, let’s call them liberal-progressives, that is pushing the following propositions:
**- That while inserting mundane elements into a sacred rite and removing sacred (taboo, set apart) ones, said rite should/will still command the same awe and respect previously accorded to it.
**
- Also, that said alterations are fitting to a rite intended to propitiate the Creator Of All Things.
I think that’s like trying to square the circle. It’s contradictory.
Personally, what I would like is a Sunday TLM available locally in Ireland for my relatives, so they could choose between the old rite and the new. Even if it did exist, I wonder if they’d appreciate what they’re seeing. I caught the tail-end of a classical education, but the current generation …?
J
JReducation
Guest
I’m not for or against the EF and teh OF. If the Holy Father says that both are equally holy and both can be celebrated that’s all I need to know and to repeat. I don’t need to go into an examination of why the pope is wrong, becauase the EF is holier than the OF. That’s not what he said, therefore, it’s not what he wants us to think or believe. As far as I’m concerned, what he says and how he says it is what I believe.
That being said, it’s important to remember everything that he said in Summorum Pontificum. He said that all secular priests could celebrate the EF without asking for permission. He also said that religious could celebrate it, if they have the permmision of their major superiors according to the laws of their religious orders. In other words, the major superiors are not bound by Summorum Pontificum. They are bound by the rules of their order. For example, in most orders the rule says that the Major Superiors must obey the vote of the brethren. Therefore, he cannot authorize anything that has not been approved by the brethren. This means that the orders must wait to have a general chapter to vote on the EF. Whatever the general chapter decides becomes law for them and the major superior must lead accordingly.
All of this comes from Summorum Pontificum. But there is something else in Summorum Pontificum. It says that the secular priest may celebrate the EF. It does not say that he has to celebrate it. Therefore, even if a bishop allows it, his men do not have to do it and the bishop has no authority to demand it. Bishops do not have this kind of authority over their deacons, priests or auxiliary bishops. These men are not in vows. Therefore, they do not have to obey the bishop on such matters. Their promise of obedience only applies to assignments, not their spirituality. If the EF is not part of a priest’s spirituality, he cannot be expected to celebrate it.
Therefore, one of the greatest challenges to having an EF mass in every parish is having enough priests who want to celebrate it. In additiona, priests who belong to religious orders do not have the right to want to celebrate the EF or the OF. They must celebrate what is approved by their constitutions and the major superior. For example, in my community, the constitution says that the EF can never be celebrated as the regular mass of the community. But it can be celebrated on special occasions as long as the Brother Superior gives his permission and the priest is a fluent speaker of Latin. He can’t simply read the prayers from the book. He must be fluent in the language or the rule does not consider it a valid prayer.
We have some limitations here. You need priests who want to celebrate the EF and who have permission to do so. The only religious that I know who have been given permission to celebrate the EF every day are the Franciscans of the Immaculate and this is only valid for six-years. The permission can be recinded at the next general chapter. All of the other Franciscans must get permission from their local superior for each celebration. They cannot celebrate it daily. They must attend the OF mass that is celebrated in the community chapel or the OF that is celebrated in the parish where they are assigned. This is true for all religious orders.
We’re really dealing with a numbers issue, not ill will on anyone’s part.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
L
Layman
Guest
I’m aware it’s a numbers issue. There are practicalities involved. Interesting that religious celebrants are required to be fluent.
Also, there is the simple shortage of priests compared to the past.
I was suprised that there were so few TLMs in Ireland. England and Wales had an indult so it was able to be kept going there, I suppose. I think Ireland is a pretty liberal country re. the post Vat. II changes. It was a surprise to come back to the Church after 20 years and then go to Mass in a large town where I hadn’t been before. The changes even in that space of time, compared to my local village, were significant, even laughable, if it wasn’t so serious a business.
In that environment, contraception, CITH, everyone-in-the-sanctuary, chatting during Mass and orations by laity at funeral Masses do not seem abnormal.
I think the O.F, Vat. II and the blanding-out of religious education in schools have encouraged significant ‘drift’ in our rite over the past 40 years. Another 40 at the current rate of change and I wonder how solemn a Mass would be.
Also, there is the simple shortage of priests compared to the past.
I was suprised that there were so few TLMs in Ireland. England and Wales had an indult so it was able to be kept going there, I suppose. I think Ireland is a pretty liberal country re. the post Vat. II changes. It was a surprise to come back to the Church after 20 years and then go to Mass in a large town where I hadn’t been before. The changes even in that space of time, compared to my local village, were significant, even laughable, if it wasn’t so serious a business.
In that environment, contraception, CITH, everyone-in-the-sanctuary, chatting during Mass and orations by laity at funeral Masses do not seem abnormal.
I think the O.F, Vat. II and the blanding-out of religious education in schools have encouraged significant ‘drift’ in our rite over the past 40 years. Another 40 at the current rate of change and I wonder how solemn a Mass would be.
- Status