TLM in English?

[Kielbasi]

Those of us who were brought up under the old Mass did not have a problem understanding it because there was a translation of the Latin on the facing page of the missal…

nearly everyone had missals and followed along by reading the facing pages).

Your conclusion , that Catholics understood the old Mass back in the olden days, is correct.

But many folks didn’t follow along in their missals back then (some certainly did). Many were able to follow the Mass by the priests and altar servers actions (which were highly regulated). Many engaged in private devotions during Mass as well.

Nowadays , during the Latin masses of the current day, maybe its different. But back in the day, I can still see the men standing along side the confessionals during an SRO mass, none of them with missals. My mother was the only one in my family with a missal, there were others, but not “nearly everyone”.

 

[whosebob]

Those of us who were brought up under the old Mass did not have a problem understanding it because there was a translation … That translation was modern (made in the 1930s or 1940s, I think) and very good: dignified, precise, faithful to the Latin text … A friend and I have speculated what might have happened had the only revision of the old Mass been its translation into the vernacular, with the English translation being the one that already appeared in the missals

JMJ + OBT​

Mr. Keating, do you think there is any hope that those translations might find a renewed purpose in the liturgical era that is about to dawn on us, that is in being employed for celebrations of the 1962 Missal in the vernacular? I too have enjoyed reading those translations, and have always wondered why the post-V2 reform of the Roman Rite didn’t consist of slight modifications to the 1962 Missale Romanum – to bring it up to speed with Sancrosanctum Concilium – and permission for it to be celebrated in the vernacular.

It seems to me that allowing such celebrations today would finally and truly make possible an “apples to apples” comparison between the Tridentine and Pauline Rites of Holy Mass (i.e. in the life of the average parish).

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[estesbob]

How often do you travel to places that speak other languages? For most people in the world, this isn’t an issue. And if you can’t understand it in Latin, what’s the harm of not understanding it in French, or Spanish, or Swahili?

When i go to Mass in Mexico i always pine for the old days where we had unity because no one could understand what the Priest what saying!

BTW-before the TLM fans attack I should add that I was once fluent in latin-they make one do that when one is in the Seminary.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

When i go to Mass in Mexico i always pine for the old days where we had unity because no one could understand what the Priest what saying!

BTW-before the TLM fans attack I should add that I was once fluent in latin-they make one do that when one is in the Seminary.

Depends on the semianry (but that should change with the new PPF) and it depends on how you define fluent.

 

[estesbob]

Depends on the semianry (but that should change with the new PPF) and it depends on how you define fluent.

I was in in the mid 60s. And beleive me we were fluent by our senior year. I wonder how many other students of that era can remember what “sin” in Latin class caused one to crawl down the aisle on all fours going BAAAAAAAAA!

 

[Dr.Bombay]

You’re right, it does. Was THAT what the hullabloo was over? We just finished that in my fourth grade class.

Thanks, teach. I feel vindicated.

Now we can say, with no little authority backing us up, that there are, indeed, at least 120 million Traditional Catholics in the world. Probably more.

I’m quoting you on that now, Kirk.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

My girlfriend would love the TLM, but refuses to go to Masses that aren’t in the vernacular, or at least in languages she can’t understand. It distracts her from the Sanctity of the Mass and her prayers. She and I attend a parish that serves much of the NO in Latin, and that troubles her. The only reason we attend the Mass times that do this is because the one Mass time that uses all English is also the one for the “folksy” types who prefer the typical United States NO

I know enough Latin to follow precisely in a Mass, so that’s not an issue, but with attending the Melkite Liturgy every other week I would not have time to also attend the TLM, and the NO vernacular with my girlfriend. This isn’t likely to change when we get married. If given the choice between the TLM and the vernacular NO, or a non-Roman Liturgy and the NO, I’m going with the non-Roman Liturgy.

So having a Traditional Mass in the vernacular would be a great blessing indeed. I would be the first to attend and promote it.

Peace and God bless!

Your problem is, you need to train your woman better. Just tell her, after you’re married, she’ll be much too tired from laundering your clothes, cooking and keeping the house spotless to worry her pretty little head about where y’all go to Mass on Sunday. Tell her you’ll be making that decision from now on.

That should end the discussion right there.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

The problem was that you insisted that .1% = 10%…which of course, is incorrect.

For the record, I would also like to attend the old mass in english. I really like the eastern Divine Liturgy in english. Hopefully, there will be an approved translation of the old mass for use in the US.

So…you’re gonna start this again, are ya Hammy?

If you insist on writing it .1%, don’t get mad at me when I logically conclude that means 10%. Which it does.

Decimal points mean things, Hammy. They really do. :tiphat:

 

[JKirkLVNV]

For the record, I would also like to attend the old mass in english. I really like the eastern Divine Liturgy in english. Hopefully, there will be an approved translation of the old mass for use in the US.

See, Doc, it’s a ground swell!

 

[Dr.Bombay]

See, Doc, it’s a ground swell!

So I see. Why don’t you found the “Traditional Latin Mass in English Society.” It could take it’s place in the pantheon of great ideas, right alongside new Coke, beta and Macs. You’ll be remembered forever.

Or until the Society is torn asunder over the divisive question, “What’s the point of having it in English if we can’t hear the Canon???”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

So I see. Why don’t you found the “Traditional Latin Mass in English Society.” It could take it’s place in the pantheon of great ideas, right alongside new Coke, beta and Macs. You’ll be remembered forever.

Or until the Society is torn asunder over the divisive question, “What’s the point of having it in English if we can’t hear the Canon???”

What’s the point of insisting on Latin when we can’t hear the Canon anyway?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

What’s the point of insisting on Latin when we can’t hear the Canon anyway?

How can I argue with such impeccable logic?

 

[steve_green_2]

What’s the point of insisting on Latin when we can’t hear the Canon anyway?

 

[steve_green_2]

I believe these look like the actual ones the ancient popes of Rome used during very High Tridentine Papal Masses. Shot off during the consecration, that is why we CAN’T hear the words

 

[palmas85]

Wasn’t there a short period of time between 1962 and 1970 before the Novus Ordo was fully implemented where the TLM was offered in the vernacular?

From about 65-70 or so they did. What was used in many places was a kind of half way translation between English and Latin. The Mass was still basically the Traditional Mass but the Canon remained in Latin and maybe another thing here or there. The Kyrie was left intact and people received kneeling and on the tongue. The Priest faced the congregation except druring the Canon.

It worked well, but the modernists didn’t like it because it still was esentially the Traditional Mass. That is what so many people don’t seem to understand. The modernists and others with their own specific agendas , didn’t want a revison of the Traditional Mass. They wanted an entirely new form of worsahip that was more relevant and acceptable to the modern person and highly adaptable to change. And since the documents that came out of Vatican II were so ambiguous and the majority of Catholics so ill informed and used to obedience, it was a very easy thing to do.

Voila, the Pauline Rite. New, inoffensive at least in theory to our separated brethren, very little emphasis on the sacrificial nature of the Mass, adaptable to any situation, no unnecessary things like altars required, just use a table with a sheet over it, cheaper, no need for expensive accessories, heck, no need for extravagence at all in fact, how was it worded, a Noble Simplicity?, was all that was needed.

No they didn’t want the Traditional Mass around at all in any way shape or form. Why do you think so many Bishops’ Clergy and Theologians are so dead set against it?? Because they were in the vanguard to get rid of it in the first place.

If anyone is interested, I have copies of several typical missals used between 65 and 70, and would be glad to share them. I’ve done this in the past on several occasions. Just PM me and let me know.

 

[TradyDaddy]

Your conclusion , that Catholics understood the old Mass back in the olden days, is correct.

But many folks didn’t follow along in their missals back then (some certainly did). Many were able to follow the Mass by the priests and altar servers actions (which were highly regulated). Many engaged in private devotions during Mass as well.

Nowadays , during the Latin masses of the current day, maybe its different. But back in the day, I can still see the men standing along side the confessionals during an SRO mass, none of them with missals. My mother was the only one in my family with a missal, there were others, but not “nearly everyone”.

I’ve been attending the Traditional Latin Mass for a little over a year now and can follow along quite easily if I were to forget my missal. It’s not rocket science folks. All it takes is an ounce of dedication for the first few months.

 

[demerzel85]

Why must one of these threads get started every few weeks? Why must people try to inflict their vulgar languages on the Old Roman Rite?

People either want the Traditional Latin Mass, or the Novus Ordo in the vernacular. Very few want the Novus Ordo in Latin and none want the TLM in English. Some things were never meant to go together. It’s unnatural.

Well it is also that those who desire the TLM, settle for the Novus Ordo in Latin because their Bishop has not been charitable.

 

[demerzel85]

Have you watched the video of the TLM that Archbishop Sheen of happy memory narrarated? You can find it several places. If you haven’t, watch it. I find the Asperges as it is done there almost funny. People complain (and rightly so) about liturgical dance, yet this looks like nothing so much as a “liturgical line dance,” a “Boot Scootin’ Boogie” down the nave of the church. And what’s with the server’s continuing the practice of lifting the hem of the priest’s chasuble when he elevates the Chalice? I could see it back in the day when the chasuble was actually encrusted with gems, was actually heavy. And the continued insistence on the part of “traditionalists” on things like birettas on priests, the absolute necessity of the Roman chasuble (looks like a an overdone Dairy Queen apron), the changing from cope to chasuble mid-service, just seems more than a tad fussy, a little on the precious side, slightly effeminate, flowery, overdone, mincing. Even if the NO Mass was ONLY in Latin, I’d attend it (esp. inasmuch as it possesses the fullness of Catholic Truth as well) rather than the TLM. There is a noble austerity and simplicity to the Pauline Mass well and reverently celebrated. Yes, it’s sometimes abused and that needs to be stopped. But it is not, of its form or nature, any less Catholic than the TLM, despite all of the things you mention. It’s an excellent example, to my mind, of “less is more.”

I watched it, and well I am still shocked at how much has been lost. But note that it was Easter Sunday, and it being a Solemnity things would be much ‘grander’ than it normally would.

Yes there is a fine line between tradition and just being fussy but at the very least for Solemnities things should be a little bit ‘grander’. Its really not much to ask for full Gregorian Chant on Solemnities. The Gregorian Chant can also be sung in the vernacular.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

So I see. Why don’t you found the “Traditional Latin Mass in English Society.” It could take it’s place in the pantheon of great ideas, right alongside new Coke, beta and Macs. You’ll be remembered forever.

Or until the Society is torn asunder over the divisive question, “What’s the point of having it in English if we can’t hear the Canon???”

Why not just convince the world’s Esperanto speakers to divert their energies to a new cause?

 

[mystified]

The question of a period when the Traditional Mass was in the vernacular:
I was a Chaplain’s Assistant in the Army in the early '60s, stationed in Germany. We had a German Dominican who was under contract as our Chaplain. Although he was quite conversant in English, when the changes came, he would “rehearse” the parts of the Sunday Mass that were to be in English with me on Saturday. It was the same as before except that parts were in English and other parts, Latin.
Our altar was still attached to the north wall of the chapel, and the military didn’t seem to be in any hurry to detach it . Am still unclear about ad orientem and reading the Gospel from the North end of an east-west altar .