TLM misconceptions

[awatkins69]

I’ve been going to Masses celebrated by the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem. Quite frankly I believe the way that Holy Mass is celebrated by most “traditionalists” today is reactionary. The whole military thing as well as the absolute quiet and rigidity expected from the laity. It would seem that even before the Second Vatican Council there were some reforms, even to the extent that the people made the servers’ replies. Today, the TLM is much more akin to a National Park as the Canons say, than to a living tradition. Just my two cents.

 

[SunnaB16]

what do they think of me at 18 . i must be the ‘exception that proves the rule’

Some one told me that the average age of folks who attend the TLM is 38…and falling. At the one i attend (FSSP), there are very few walking sticks, but many young families and young single people. Outside the church, you have to be careful not to step on any toddlers.

It doesnt have to be a "Clown Mass" to drive a person to the TLM. An UGLY church interior can be enough, especially when its obvious that the church`s interior had once been quite decent until the white marble altar was ripped out, and replaced with an ugly wooden turnout with a caricature of Melchizedek, the communion rails ripped out (of course!), the painted plaster statues removed, smashed and buried, and replaced with revolting timber ones, the Stations of The Cross defaced…etc.
There really does seem to be a Cult of Ugliness.

Add to all of that rampant “Audience Participation”, and it`s too much. That “sign of peace” act makes the church sound (and sometimes, look) like the interior of a beerhall.
And on and on.

Some can “offer it up”, but some of us cant. Its no good exiting the church with smoke curling from your nostrils.

By the way, National Parks are a great idea: they help preserve parts of the world from the ravages of “progress”. Future generations will be able to look at a world free of frenzied change. Ditto for the TLM… The young people attracted to its sense of timelessness have assured the EF of a healthy future. Its the way the Church Herself is at Her heart: an immovable Rock, heedless of the direction of the wind and the waves. Theres a “solidity” about the TLM. You dont have to wonder: "Whats the next quirk on the Programme?". Of couse, if the OF were celebrated correctly, things would be better, but there`s still an annoying number of “alternative” prayers , responses, acclamations…

In spite of so much "information:
Todays Western society must be the most ill-informed, bigoted, stupid (in a non-IQ sense), conceited etc society in history. Its full of itself, so it`s full of nothing, and will have to implode.

Its good to have something thats visibly timeless. Not following fashion, whims.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Today, the TLM is much more akin to a National Park as the Canons say, than to a living tradition. Just my two cents.

While I highly respect the Canons in many respects (especially the sanctity necessary for a religious and the importance of mortification), liturgy just isn’t one of their strong points.

 

[CradleCath]

joedecarlo;6816894:

Correction: He did once, 1990. (I think just once…)

He says it almost every day

though, for his private Mass

Absolutely. BTW., I didn’t write the message you quoted.

 

[The_Bucket]

Todays Western society must be the most ill-informed, bigoted, stupid (in a non-IQ sense), conceited etc society in history. Its full of itself, so it`s full of nothing, and will have to implode.

I assure you that people in every generation and in every culture have had this thought.

Its good to have something thats visibly timeless. Not following fashion, whims.

I agree with you here. But let’s not try and intimate that the EF hasn’t changed over the years and the celebration of Mass or at the very least the celebration around the Mass hasn’t been different in other cultures throughout the centuries. It has.

 

[Ockham]

The following quote is often attributed to Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen.

Would a similar statement on the Traditional Latin Mass have merit?

Yes it has merit.

Here is a quick over view of commnets you’ll hear from non-traditional Catholics:

• the priest has his back to me so I can’t see what’s going on
• it’s in a language I can’t understand
• it seems unfriendly (no congregation ‘sign of peace’, chatting in the nave)

Let’s not forget that during past generations the Mass was taught in Catholic schools. Children had a better understanding of the liturgy then people being introduced to the EF have now. Today, many Catholics only spend one hour a week being Catholic.

The OF is a simplified liturgy and as such doesn’t demand the understanding the EF does. If you don’t know what’s going on at the altar it’s understandable to feel ‘left out’. You won’t know what’s going on if you don’t take time to learn liturgical Latin or buy yourself a missal, watch tutorial videos, etc. It’s harder to smarten up then dumb down.

As we are an overly opinionated, narcistic society of instant gratification, consumer choice, that due to technological advancements has shielded itself from the natural processes of life, the desire for a customized simplified liturgy is understandable. However, that doesn’t make it right and God deserves better.

 

[Victorious]

To me, I believe that the EF Mass expresses our Faith more clearly than the OF.

Yes. As a means of instruction in the faith, the EF Mass is superior, in my opinion.

I’d go to the EF Mass exclusively if I had that kind of access to it.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Today, many Catholics only spend one hour a week being Catholic.

While most spend no time at all.

 

[Ockham]

While most spend no time at all.

True. That’s a disturbing trend since the Novus Ordo became the OF (and other societal factors).

 

[The_Bucket]

My goodness does some of this smack of elitism. Look, I fancy myself an intellectual and I wish I had the opportunity to learn Latin in school. I think the EF is beautiful, interesting and intellectually stimulating because of its rich tradition.

However, arguing that essentially the OF as it exists today is because people are too stupid is just absurd. It rings of an idealized vision of nearly all Catholics as basically being smarter than their non-Catholic peers and again, that’s just false. Do you think anyone in the Middle Ages really “knew what was going on” in the Mass except by going to those Masses for decades? No. There was no instruction in Latin for the common folk then and I highly doubt it was more than rote memorization for many Catholic schoolkids here in the US who didn’t have the smarts or the money to spend years in school learning the intricacies of the Mass and its various forms. That’s not real understanding or even appreciation. That’s just routine.

The reality is that many people went to Mass and truly didn’t have a grasp of every aspect of the sacrifice or the readings and were heavily reliant on their priests to give them good instruction during the homilies. Arguing that the EF is superior and the OF exists only because of laity’s stupidity is like saying the Bible should never have been translated from Latin. Well really, it should have never been translated from the ORIGINAL Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic if you want to be that far gone into intellectualism.

The ordinary form allows more people to approach the Eucharist and understand everything about what’s going on. And as I said before, it also appeals to a wider range of folks who might turn to Protestant churches over trivial matters because they “feel more welcome” or the “church is warmer” or what have you. The form of the Mass is not doctrine and has indeed changed over time; it’s not a timeless thing. What’s timeless is the doctrine and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Like I said, I find the EF very appealing and I thoroughly enjoy the inclusion of Latin into the OF. Others find it off-putting… the way I find using drums or guitars for hymns to be off-putting, but those personal quirks shouldn’t keep us from what is most important and that’s Christ’s Real Presence in that church, regardless of the form of the Mass. After all, I highly doubt they had organs at their disposal poor regions of Latin America or the funds for gorgeous churches in rural Africa but the faith is just as real there as it is in developed and wealthier nations. In fact, many times it is more real there than it is here in the West.

 

[Ockham]

My goodness does some of this smack of elitism. Look, I fancy myself an intellectual and I wish I had the opportunity to learn Latin in school. I think the EF is beautiful, interesting and intellectually stimulating because of its rich tradition.

However, arguing that essentially the OF as it exists today is because people are too stupid is just absurd.

As an intellectual you should know that given the OF being a simplified liturgy does not necesseary mean its attendents are stupid.

Can you put together a better argument?

Do you deny the OF is a simplified liturgy? Do you deny the decline in critial factors such as Mass attendence, belief in the Real Presence, participation in Confession, since the onset of the Novus Ordo?

 

[The_Bucket]

Do you deny the OF is a simplified liturgy? Do you deny the decline in critial factors such as Mass attendence, belief in the Real Presence, participation in Confession, since the onset of the Novus Ordo?

I don’t see the OF as simplified just because it’s easier to understand. I consider it merely different.

As far as Sunday attendance and religiosity in general, I think it’s hardly fair to ascribe that to a change in the Mass format. Western Europe turning more and more atheist has nothing to do with a change in the form of the Mass and the same goes for American Protestant sects becoming more popular. To be frank, other Christian sects have compromised on doctrine to keep members, while the Church never will.

 

[magdalina]

While I highly respect the Canons in many respects (especially the sanctity necessary for a religious and the importance of mortification), liturgy just isn’t one of their strong points.

Who are these Canons? Mortification? I’m almost afraid to ask. How do they offer the liturgy?

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Who are these Canons?

canonsregular.com/

Mortification?

Yes, as our Lord says, unless you take up your cross and follow him, you cannot be saved.

How do they offer the liturgy?

Traditional Mass, ideas and praxis of the liturgical movement.

 

[magdalina]

canonsregular.com/

Yes, as our Lord says, unless you take up your cross and follow him, you cannot be saved.

Traditional Mass, ideas and praxis of the liturgical movement.

OK. Augustinian-rule religious community with vows. TLM only. No Escriva-style ritual or apparatus. You mentioned that liturgy was not one of their strong points. What do you mean? Is there a recognized gold-standard for TLM liturgy? If so, who and where?

 

[IntegraCatholic]

As I mentioned, they follow the praxis of the liturgical movement, that is, making too much of a concern with external participation, including integrating things forbidden till that time (e.g., vernacular hymns at low Mass, dialogue low Masses, etc.) There seems to be an inversely proportionate internal and external participation relationship for the vast majority of the laity, unfortunately. We need to foster internal participation at the cost of external, if necessary. The “gold standard,” if there can be one would be the liturgy as it organically developed and was codified by the Council of Trent and preserved (for the most part) up to the late 19th century. I think the best time would be c. 1600-1800, but that could be debated. The Baroque age was the last authentically Catholic age.

 

[Bekamom]

As A brand new convert I can say that I do enjoy my NO mass. I would also like to attend the TLM. I think it would be better if they were offered side by side. it would be nice to see both. there is only one church within 100 miles of me that offers TLM and I think thats sad. I think both since both are approved should be offered. I think people in RCIA should be educated about both and each person decide which fits better to there hearts and type of worship. I for one would go to both I think.

 

[CradleCath]

Yes it has merit.

Here is a quick over view of commnets you’ll hear from non-traditional Catholics:

 

[CradleCath]

My goodness does some of this smack of elitism. Look, I fancy myself an intellectual and I wish I had the opportunity to learn Latin in school. I think the EF is beautiful, interesting and intellectually stimulating because of its rich tradition.

However, arguing that essentially the OF as it exists today is because people are too stupid is just absurd. It rings of an idealized vision of nearly all Catholics as basically being smarter than their non-Catholic peers and again, that’s just false.

 

[VetA]

Some one told me that the average age of folks who attend the TLM is 38…and falling. At the one i attend (FSSP), there are very few walking sticks, but many young families and young single people. Outside the church, you have to be careful not to step on any toddlers.

It doesnt have to be a "Clown Mass" to drive a person to the TLM. An UGLY church interior can be enough, especially when its obvious that the church`s interior had once been quite decent until the white marble altar was ripped out, and replaced with an ugly wooden turnout with a caricature of Melchizedek, the communion rails ripped out (of course!), the painted plaster statues removed, smashed and buried, and replaced with revolting timber ones, the Stations of The Cross defaced…etc.
There really does seem to be a Cult of Ugliness.

Add to all of that rampant “Audience Participation”, and it`s too much. That “sign of peace” act makes the church sound (and sometimes, look) like the interior of a beerhall.
And on and on.

Some can “offer it up”, but some of us cant. Its no good exiting the church with smoke curling from your nostrils.

By the way, National Parks are a great idea: they help preserve parts of the world from the ravages of “progress”. Future generations will be able to look at a world free of frenzied change. Ditto for the TLM… The young people attracted to its sense of timelessness have assured the EF of a healthy future. Its the way the Church Herself is at Her heart: an immovable Rock, heedless of the direction of the wind and the waves. Theres a “solidity” about the TLM. You dont have to wonder: "Whats the next quirk on the Programme?". Of couse, if the OF were celebrated correctly, things would be better, but there`s still an annoying number of “alternative” prayers , responses, acclamations…

In spite of so much "information:
Todays Western society must be the most ill-informed, bigoted, stupid (in a non-IQ sense), conceited etc society in history. Its full of itself, so it`s full of nothing, and will have to implode.

Its good to have something thats visibly timeless. Not following fashion, whims.

i still cant get over the fact that they have those…

thank God my OF parish kept everything except the altar rails and only added a second altar, if someone is driven to the EF from my OF parish it definatly aint cause of the church, i personally think its beautiful

When i do go to the OF i usually dont do the whole sign of peace thing unless i am an altar server and the priest offers me a hand shake, but the other day some older lady all but shoved her hand in my face so i did it so i wouldnt make a scene. however the whole sign of peace thing is of the least of my grievances with the OF

what ranks among the top of my grievences though is communion in the hand and the Extra-ordinary ministers of Holy Communion. my thinking on those two topics is the priest concentrated the Host, he preformed the ritual washing, he should be the only one who does it normally, unless theres like 1000 people and it would take like 5 hours to give Communion to all those people.