TLM misconceptions

[CradleCath]

CradleCath;6871030:

Now THAT I didn’t know.
I only said it was my take. Your experience was obviously different, and it doesn’t make you wrong. The fact that Catholics had now to worship in what seemed

to be a non-Catholic service confused quite a few, to be sure.

Yes, it was confusing. Just wanted to let you know that the first public Novus Ordo Mass was prayed in Korea in April 1969, but it had been prayed privately before, at the Vatican, for the Bishops. When asked to vote on the new liturgy, 71 bishops voted placet (approved), 43 voted non placet (not approved) and 62 voted placet iuxta modum (approved with reservations). So, you can see that there were MORE Church Fathers not giving full approval, as opposed to those who did.

I attended my first Novus Ordo in the later half of 1969. So, I’d say the “Liturgical Chaos” that you mentioned as “being part of the confusing 60’s”, really happened in the lated 60’s & in the 70’s.

 

[Bbigam]

Well in my way of thinking is it a new Mass? Well, it is and ins’t at the same time . As put so well put in post 115 it shifts attention from a sacrifice to merly a communion service. I really would rather have TLM but the new translation set for Advent 2011 gives me hope (if done as written) with all chants and rubics I could live with it if I could not attend TLM.

I’ve heard this a lot - that the Ordinary Form shifts focus from Sacrifice to communion service or communal meal - but I haven’t seen any evidence of it. And I mean evidence that comes from the actual Roman Missal or the GIRM, not from the bad ways people have seen it celebrated in some places.

 

[ProVobis]

…I haven’t seen any evidence of it. And I mean evidence that comes from the **actual Roman Missal **or the GIRM, not from the bad ways people have seen it celebrated in some places.

“Apparently the designation of the Mass in the first edition [April 6, 1969] of the Novus Ordo as ‘the Lord’s Supper or the the holy gathering or assembly of the people of God, as they come together, into one [body], with the priest as presider and taking on the persona of Christ, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord,’ has its source in the Protestant theology of the Abendmahl rite, the commemorative meal. … this particular definition of the Mass appears in a document bearing the signature of Pope Paul VI…”

Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, Una Voce Press, 1993

 

[Bbigam]

Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, Una Voce Press, 1993

But does the Mass itself have such a change in emphasis? Or just some commentary in the decree?

 

[ProVobis]

But does the Mass itself have such a change in emphasis? Or just some commentary in the decree?

The commentary isn’t just a “just.” It is from the Magisterium of the Church.

 

[CradleCath]

But does the Mass itself have such a change in emphasis? Or just some commentary in the decree?

latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm

Follow the link above & you will find a side-by-side comparison of the two Masses. That should enable you to see for yourself the differences inherent in the Masses. I think that you’ll notice that the humility, the **propitiatory **nature of the Traditional Latin Mass is almost absent in the Novus Ordo. The effort to unite ourselves to Christ, Whose sacrifice of Himself in an unbloody manner is offered to appease a God Who has been greatly offended by the sins of mankind is **primary **in the Latin Mass. There is no place in this Mass where it’s appropriate to “greet one’s neighbor” while praying this Mass. One’s whole being is concentrated upon the Sacrifice made both by the Father & the Son. It takes complete mental & emotional participation to pray the TLM. properly.

I find that the common “Novus Ordo” Catholic has a hard time visualizing a God who needs to be appeased & pacified so badly that He gave His only Son as a Sacrifice for our sins.

 

[ProVobis]

latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm

Follow the link above & you will find a side-by-side comparison of the two Masses. That should enable you to see for yourself the differences inherent in the Masses.

Cradle, do you have a link which shows the Latin comparisons between the old Mass and the new one? You make valid points but I for one don’t think it’s fair to compare the translations since the old rite MUST be said in Latin.

 

[Bibbit]

latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm

Follow the link above & you will find a side-by-side comparison of the two Masses. That should enable you to see for yourself the differences inherent in the Masses. I think that you’ll notice that the humility, the **propitiatory **nature of the Traditional Latin Mass is almost absent in the Novus Ordo. The effort to unite ourselves to Christ, Whose sacrifice of Himself in an unbloody manner is offered to appease a God Who has been greatly offended by the sins of mankind is **primary **in the Latin Mass. There is no place in this Mass where it’s appropriate to “greet one’s neighbor” while praying this Mass. One’s whole being is concentrated upon the Sacrifice made both by the Father & the Son. It takes complete mental & emotional participation to pray the TLM. properly.

I find that the common “Novus Ordo” Catholic has a hard time visualizing a God who needs to be appeased & pacified so badly that He gave His only Son as a Sacrifice for our sins.

Let’s not forget that Benedict XVI is considering changing the Sign of Peace and moving it to an earlier point in the Mass. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if he were considering getting rid of it.

 

[CradleCath]

Cradle, do you have a link which shows the Latin comparisons between the old Mass and the new one? You make valid points but I for one don’t think it’s fair to compare the translations since the old rite MUST be said in Latin.

However, it’s prayed by the Laity in English…using either the missalette that most Churches offer, or a missal like mine from Angelus Press. I don’t have a link to either Mass in Latin & I’m really sorry, but I don’t understand why you’d need to see that to compare the two Masses???

 

[CradleCath]

Let’s not forget that Benedict XVI is considering changing the Sign of Peace and moving it to an earlier point in the Mass. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if he were considering getting rid of it.

That’s good, but is that all you got from my post? I offered a link that goes through every prayer in both Masses. What are your thoughts??

 

[ProVobis]

However, it’s prayed by the Laity in English.

Not necessarily true. The EF handmissal English (or Spanish or Polish, for that matter) is only a guide, not the real McCoy. But it’s okay to pray with, that I’ll grant you.

However, more to the point. If I were to compare the Polish OF with the Polish translation of the EF, I might arrive at a different set of conclusions than if I were to compare the English OF with an English translation of the EF. Thus it would behoove me to compare the sources of the texts if I wanted to be more objective. I don’t want to get you angry, just saying.

 

[Bbigam]

latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm

Follow the link above & you will find a side-by-side comparison of the two Masses. That should enable you to see for yourself the differences inherent in the Masses. I think that you’ll notice that the humility, the **propitiatory **nature of the Traditional Latin Mass is almost absent in the Novus Ordo. The effort to unite ourselves to Christ, Whose sacrifice of Himself in an unbloody manner is offered to appease a God Who has been greatly offended by the sins of mankind is **primary **in the Latin Mass. There is no place in this Mass where it’s appropriate to “greet one’s neighbor” while praying this Mass. One’s whole being is concentrated upon the Sacrifice made both by the Father & the Son. It takes complete mental & emotional participation to pray the TLM. properly.

I find that the common “Novus Ordo” Catholic has a hard time visualizing a God who needs to be appeased & pacified so badly that He gave His only Son as a Sacrifice for our sins.

Thank you, that’s helpful - both the link and explanation. Explained this way I can see what you mean about a change in emphasis. Sometimes some Traditionalists say it in extreme terms like “they threw out the whole idea of sacrifice and replaced it with just a communal meal!” and that’s not helpful or accurate. But something of a shifting of emphasis - yeah, I can see that.

Now, part - not nearly all - of the difference is with the terrible current English “translation” that hides a lot of the humility and beseeching that is still present in the Latin of the Ordinary Form.
As an example the current English of the Roman Canon starts out thus (the Te igitur):

We come to you, Father, with praise and thanksgiving, Through Jesus Christ your Son. Through him we ask you to accept and bless (+) these gifts we offer you in sacrifice.

while the upcoming new, more accurate translation of the Roman Canon starts out thus:

To you, therefore, most merciful Father, we make humble prayer and petition through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord: that you accept and bless (+) these gifts, these offerings, these holy and unblemished sacrifices…

Big difference in which the outgoing paraphrase completely leaves out any idea of humility or beseeching (not to mention the “holy and unblemished” part…).

I’d love to see side-by-side the new translation of the Ordinary Form with a good translation of the Extraordinary Form. Maybe I’ll just sit down and go through it all sometime. I do have a 1962 Roman Missal from Baronius in the mail!

PS - Not a big fan of the Sign of Peace and I wouldn’t mind if it went away…

 

[ProVobis]

Now, part - not nearly all - of the difference is with the terrible current English “translation” that hides a lot of the humility and beseeching that is still present in the Latin of the Ordinary Form.

But I’ve heard that some people regard anything to do with the Old Mass, including the handmissal English, as terrible, also. Just saying.

 

[CradleCath]

Not necessarily true. The EF handmissal English (or Spanish or Polish, for that matter) is only a guide, not the real McCoy. But it’s okay to pray with, that I’ll grant you.

I’m curious. Do you attend the EF. Mass regularly & if so, do you pray it in Latin? I read Latin, can’t speak it, but can read it pretty well. I had several years of Latin in school & it comes back quickly when it’s the Mass…something I attended on a daily basis. The translation into the vernaculur of the Tridentine Mass is exact…it’s not a “guide”. It’s a literal translation…IOW’s it IS the “real McCoy”.

However, more to the point. If I were to compare the Polish OF with the Polish translation of the EF, I might arrive at a different set of conclusions than if I were to compare the English OF with an English translation of the EF. Thus it would behoove me to compare the sources of the texts if I wanted to be more objective. I don’t want to get you angry, just saying./

 

[ProVobis]

I’m curious. Do you attend the EF. Mass regularly & if so, do you pray it in Latin?