TLM parishes Vs territorial parish culture?

[Paul_Edwards]

There are a few general differences, unity playing an important factor in that. This is my experience in England below and I imagine America is similar. I know a man at the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children who once said “St Mary’s is a 100% prolife parish” when thinking of getting people involved. He was referring to a church where the FSSP is and that was an interesting thing for him to say about a church 45 minutes away and in the next diocese. But it was not in vain.

There are some churches that have been given to groups like the FSSP or ICKSP, these are what some might nickname as “Latin mass churches” because they only have traditional Latin masses. These parishes are known stereotypically (which is no mistake) for having almost 100% of their attendees full believers in the faith (ie in the Eucharist and against abortion and contraception). These parishes have a reputation for having large families and having lots of altar boys, many of who end up joining seminary every few years if not every year. These people also attend confession regular and do not receive communion in mortal sin. The culture apart from this means you can speak to pretty much anyone after mass and know that this person will most likely share the same faith as you and have all the same views on important issues. The priest also holds the entire faith in these churches and often even give sermons that clearly reflect that. . . .

But however we must be careful to be appropriate about how and when to express such happiness. Mass is for Adoration of God and tea and coffee in the church hall after mass is for greeting and chatting (which is an important event to join in).

 

[whatistrue]

no canonical standing with the Church

 

[phil19034]

I have gone to both Novus Ordo masses and Tridentine Latin masses, but overall I have only been a member of Novus Ordo parishes. I am curious though what is the difference between parish life and culture in a Tridentine parish as opposed to a novus ordo parish. Is there any difference at all? I do sense there to be a stereotype that Traditionals are less friendly. I don’t have enough experience though to be able to confirm or deny this stenotype though. I love the Latin mass, but I haven’t made the leap to joining a Latin mass parish. Thoughts?

I attend both, but I’m starting to attend the Latin Mass more and more.

These are the “differences” that I have noticed:

1. The vast majority of men wear jackets & ties. The vast majority of women cover their hair with a veil, hat, scarf, etc.
2. Believe it or not, but I find the Latin Mass to be more “friendly” or at least more “social.” The FSSP parish near me has a potluck social after every Sunday mass (they have 2 each Sunday) and A LOT of people sit and talk. I think the reason the Latin Mass gets labeled as “unfriendly” is because inside the nave, everyone is very serious. But they become super friendly once they enter the narthex and/or parish hall.
3. Altar Boys have a much larger commitment than in the Ordinary Form. In the TLM, they are required to memorize many parts of the Mass in Latin, as well as postures, etc. The Altar Boy Guild typically has “ranks” within it and the boys learn from older boys, as well as boys & men who are of a higher rank. Also, they don’t age out. The Altar Boys easily range from 7 years old to 77 years of age.
4. Lay ministries at TLM parishes tend to be social in nature only, while the priests are far more involved with adult education (at least with the FSSP). In other words, at TLM parishes, you have fewer instances where a lay person would lead an adult catechesis or RCIA class.
5. At TLM parishes, the “parish administrator” is typically focused with administration and finance only, while the pastor and other priests handle everything spiritual. Though parish employees might also be involved with Child Faith Formation too.

 

[babochka]

CatholicWife1:

but overall I have only been a member of Novus Ordo parishes

There is no such thing as a “novus ordo parish”.

Tridentine parish

There is also no such thing as a “Tridentine parish”.

Parishes are territorial. There are also personal parishes which are usually ethnic parishes but could be some other type of personal parish that is not territorially based.

What would you consider the best term for a parish that only offers the extraordinary form of the Mass, such as an FSSP parish?

Edit: I see that you answered the question in a subsequent post, but “personal parish”, while correct, is still too broad when discussing the issue. It is a term of canon law, but I think that we need a reasonable term that actually describes life and charism of the parish. A parish that exclusively offers the extraordinary form is not the same as a parish that is Polish, Portuguese, or Vietnamese. Yes, under canon law has the same status, but that is not terribly helpful in everyday conversation when a person is seeking out a parish that exclusively offers the extraordinary form. Language needs to have the ability to be both precise and functional.

 

[phil19034]

1ke:

CatholicWife1:

but overall I have only been a member of Novus Ordo parishes

There is no such thing as a “novus ordo parish”.

Tridentine parish

There is also no such thing as a “Tridentine parish”.

Parishes are territorial. There are also personal parishes which are usually ethnic parishes but could be some other type of personal parish that is not territorially based.

What would you consider the best term for a parish that only offers the extraordinary form of the Mass, such as an FSSP parish?

Edit: I see that you answered the question in a subsequent post, but “personal parish”, while correct, is still too broad when discussing the issue. It is a term of canon law, but I think that we need a reasonable term that actually describes life and charism of the parish. A parish that exclusively offers the extraordinary form is not the same as a parish that is Polish, Portuguese, or Vietnamese. Yes, under canon law it is, but that is not terribly helpful in everyday conversation when a person is seeking out a parish that exclusively offers the extraordinary form.

The banners I’ve seen during processions often say things like “Latin Mass Parish” or “Tridentine Mass Parish” or “Traditional Latin Mass Parish”, etc

 

[giuseppeTO]

The only thing sadly though is that yes people often are sad at the old mass and happy at the new mass.

Paul, this is fascinating. How do you know that people are sad? Is it the expression on their face? If they don’t tell you that they are sad, unless you interact with them after Mass, how can you possibly know? Perhaps you are used to seeing the result of the “entertainment factor” in the New Mass causing smiles, laughter, and good-feelings. I don’t necessarily use “entertainment factor” as a derogatory term - just the sermon with jokes, personal interaction with the priest “ad populam” , upbeat pop music, etc. The model of the New Mass is the supper at the table. By contrast, the TLM is the reenactment of Calvary, the unbloody sacrifice. Since it is more sublime and reflects more of a witness to Calvary than a dinner gathering, perhaps you are seeing people who are united to Christ in that moment. You are seeing the face of the sublime - not sadness, particularly as one is called at this Holy Sacrifice to commemorate our sins that brought Christ to this place. Perhaps that is also why you might be more apt to see parishioners at the TLM remain in their seats for a while to offer thanksgiving for being granted the opportunity to share in a small part of Christ’s sacrifice.

I have exclusively attended the TLM for the better part of my adult life, in many different churches, and any sadness caused by spiritually partaking of these sacred mysteries, dissipates after the conclusion of Mass and is replaced, in my experience, by an unbounded joy. I speak from personal experience.

 

[phil19034]

The only thing sadly though is that yes people often are sad at the old mass and happy at the new mass. Perhaps it’s an overreaction to how bad things are, who knows. We have to try and be happy despite what goes on, and at least that’s something people at the new mass happen to be good at.

I think “sad” is the wrong word. I think people at the Latin mass are more worried about society in general, but I don’t think I would call that “sad.”

That said, I have heard a FSSP priest say that people who attend the Latin mass need to focus a little more on having hope for the future of the Church & society.

We might be a little pessimistic in regards to the culture at large, but I don’t think I would use the word “sad.”

 

[phil19034]

CatholicWife1:

I have gone to both Novus Ordo masses and Tridentine Latin masses, but overall I have only been a member of Novus Ordo parishes. I am curious though what is the difference between parish life and culture in a Tridentine parish as opposed to a novus ordo parish. Is there any difference at all? I do sense there to be a stereotype that Traditionals are less friendly. I don’t have enough experience though to be able to confirm or deny this stenotype though. I love the Latin mass, but I haven’t made the leap to joining a Latin mass parish. Thoughts?

I attend both, but I’m starting to attend the Latin Mass more and more.

These are the “differences” that I have noticed:

1. The vast majority of men wear jackets & ties. The vast majority of women cover their hair with a veil, hat, scarf, etc.
2. Believe it or not, but I find the Latin Mass to be more “friendly” or at least more “social.” The FSSP parish near me has a potluck social after every Sunday mass (they have 2 each Sunday) and A LOT of people sit and talk. I think the reason the Latin Mass gets labeled as “unfriendly” is because inside the nave, everyone is very serious. But they become super friendly once they enter the narthex and/or parish hall.
3. Altar Boys have a much larger commitment than in the Ordinary Form. In the TLM, they are required to memorize many parts of the Mass in Latin, as well as postures, etc. The Altar Boy Guild typically has “ranks” within it and the boys learn from older boys, as well as boys & men who are of a higher rank. Also, they don’t age out. The Altar Boys easily range from 7 years old to 77 years of age.
4. Lay ministries at TLM parishes tend to be social in nature only, while the priests are far more involved with adult education (at least with the FSSP). In other words, at TLM parishes, you have fewer instances where a lay person would lead an adult catechesis or RCIA class.
5. At TLM parishes, the “parish administrator” is typically focused with administration and finance only, while the pastor and other priests handle everything spiritual. Though parish employees might also be involved with Child Faith Formation too.

OH - I can’t believe I forgot one of the biggest differences I’ve noticed.

1. The percentage of young adults, young families, & young children at the Latin Mass is far greater than the percentages at territorial parishes near me.

 

[commenter]

I wish people would stop referring to “Traditional” or 'Tridentine" parishes.
All parishes are influenced by Tradition and all parishes are influenced by the Council of Trent.

For that matter all parishes in 2020 are influenced by the Council of Nicea. Should we call your parish a
Nicene parish?

What people call the Tridentine Mass certainly did not begin at Trent.

The term Novus Ordo is technically ok, just outdated as a term. Most people use it without derogatory intent. But even they should be aware that others have used it with definite derogatory intent.

That alone is reason to use the more correct term.

 

[phil19034]

I wish people would stop referring to “Traditional” or 'Tridentine" parishes.
All parishes are influenced by Tradition and all parishes are influenced by the Council of Trent.

For that matter all parishes in 2020 are influenced by the Council of Nicea. Should we call your parish a
Nicene parish?

What people call the Tridentine Mass certainly did not begin at Trent.

The term Novus Ordo is technically ok, just outdated as a term. Most people use it without derogatory intent. But even they should be aware that others have used it with definite derogatory intent.

That alone is reason to use the more correct term.

What would you suggest then? “Latin Parish,” “Latin Mass Parish,” “Extraordinary Form Parish”?

 

[1ke]

What would you suggest then? “Latin Parish,” “Latin Mass Parish,” “Extraordinary Form Parish”?

St XYZ Catholic Parish
Roman Catholic Parish of the Diocese of Y

Just like every other parish.

I think All Saints in Minneapolis is instructive here:

https://fsspminneapolis.org/

All Saints is a personal parish in the archdiocese of St Paul and Minneapolis. They simply designate themselves as a PARISH. Like all other parishes. “The Church of All Saints is a parish of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis staffed by priests of the Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP).”

Not a Tridentine Parish. Not a Latin Mass Parish. Not an Extraordinary Form Parish. Primarily because none of those things is a thing. They don’t exist.

 

[whatistrue]

How about “Parish”? There are several Diocesan Parishes that celebrate the EF at least once per week, some more often, that are not exclusively EF.

Or, if it is really important, “FSSP Parish”, “ICKSP Parish”, etc. (if they are actually operated by those groups).

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Perhaps you are used to seeing the result of the “entertainment factor” in the New Mass causing smiles, laughter, and good-feelings

I think “sad” is the wrong word. I think people at the Latin mass are more worried about society in general, but I don’t think I would call that “sad.”

Perhaps that is it, partly. Sadly I was raised with the Novus Ordo, but now I normally attend the traditional Latin mass.

To be honest, most people are not sad and are very jolly after mass at the appropriate times, but I have met a few people who generally have a very sad expression all the time and potentially have a form of clinical depression. I think most of these people are at the SSPX though however. In approved apostolates there is usually at least one or two people like that also but the majority are generally happy in life.

Perhaps what you said about people being worried about Society is the observation I’m making and maybe a small number of people show that worry on their face (but most do not). I suppose most of us who attend the Latin mass are at least serious people in general to some extent compared to the world (which is a good thing). Never the less I am convinced that both the happy and the possibly unhappy or worried ones are extremely holy people. Perhaps some of the greatest saints would be people who could not smile while knowing how many souls are currently being lost, understandably.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

They simply designate themselves as a PARISH. Like all other parishes.

That’s all very well and good normally, but not however when discussing that particular kind of church to people and comparing it to another like in this thread, and also not when trying to promote it or advertise it, because if people don’t know the difference they’ll take no notice. Nobody is going to guess when we say “parish” that we mean a parish that celebrates the Latin mass, and so we think of a phrase to use that people will understand easily. If we say Latin mass parish or perhaps instead Latin mass church people understand what we mean that’s what matters

 

[Genesis315]

Friendliness depends if you’re single and of marrying age

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[HomeschoolDad]

There are some churches that have been given to groups like the FSSP or ICKSP, these are what some might nickname as “Latin mass churches” because they only have traditional Latin masses. These parishes are known stereotypically (which is no mistake) for having almost 100% of their attendees full believers in the faith (ie in the Eucharist and against abortion and contraception). These parishes have a reputation for having large families and having lots of altar boys, many of who end up joining seminary every few years if not every year. These people also attend confession regular and do not receive communion in mortal sin. The culture apart from this means you can speak to pretty much anyone after mass and know that this person will most likely share the same faith as you and have all the same views on important issues. The priest also holds the entire faith in these churches and often even give sermons that clearly reflect that.

On the contrary, the culture in Novus Ordo Churches even in the most conservative of parishes is sadly not the same, even if there is “one Latin mass per week”. Here most people have their own views on things and most people do not go to confession regular before communion (I will not say that they receive in mortal sin but let you draw the natural conclusion yourself rather than make a judgement reserved for Our Lord and the priest in the confessional). Most people at these parishes use contraceptives (or miraculously have small families or practice abstinence which is most likely not the case on such a massive scale).

You absolutely nail it in these two paragraphs. I couldn’t be more emphatically in agreement with every word you say here.

I would warn you, though, that on this forum, calling attention to things such as people not going to confession, being in mortal sin, or using contraceptives (and any connection between these three things), is intensely disliked by some — they call it “judging” and may protest that you can’t know what anyone does unless you ask them.

Make of that what you will. Again, friend, you nail it.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Let’s hope one day that parishes will gradually literally become “Latin mass parishes” in fact (even geographically) and then the next parish and then the next one, and who knows 50 years later perhaps all of them. Before that happens though the formal language of the church would have to slightly altar and the phrases ordinary and extraordinary form (which are perfectly legitimate) would have to be rethought to make that more implementable in practice.

It’s only a question of language in any case and that can change as appropriate over time, it’s only the essence that really matters and the labels and names of things can be rethought one day who knows.

 

[Fauken]

Can’t say I’ve made such a proposition to the young guys I see at TLMs… Then again, they haven’t said that to me either.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Let’s hope one day that parishes will gradually literally become “Latin mass parishes” in fact (even geographically) and then the next parish and then the next one, and who knows 50 years later perhaps all of them.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

. . . I don’t know how these people’s logic works, who somehow think that maybe almost everybody secretly has confession in the presbytery and miraculously doesn’t have children. . . . The “do not judge” people are often the biggest judges in life, and we get in trouble for making obvious observations and seeing clear patterns and for not assuming that everything is a coincidence. Perhaps we should start taking more parish surveys for the sake of these people and then we can say that the majority does have certain views without making any judgement.

Thanks for looking out for me. I think it’s great that your a home school Dad, that’s the way forward for the future.

they call it “judging” and may protest that you can’t know what anyone does unless you ask them.