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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Oh, yes, the preeners, they seriously get on my nerves.
TLM proponents "anti-ecumenical obstructionists of an evolving church"?
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Chris_in_Mich
Guest
The people in this article are not dissidents, nor or most who attend the TLM.
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Joysong
Guest
Hi Chris,
You reacted as though these were my words since my name is on the reference. Please refer back to post #8 where I copied the word from the article, and in the same post, I later called these people “traditionalists” – not dissidents. Whether or not it was the Pope who used the word or the author of the article, I don’t know.
You reacted as though these were my words since my name is on the reference. Please refer back to post #8 where I copied the word from the article, and in the same post, I later called these people “traditionalists” – not dissidents. Whether or not it was the Pope who used the word or the author of the article, I don’t know.
I see that I did repeat the word dissident in a later post, but in context to it having been used previously in this thread, as I mentioned.
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AltarMan
Guest
Joysong said:
I think so. They only question that I have is if the “preening” would still exist if the indult was more commonly offered? The problem with that is there really aren’t that many people demanding the Tridentine Mass to begin with. There might be a great many more Tridentine Masses offered, but their average attendance would be mighty low…
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AltarMan
Guest
Yup and yup!
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
I think you owe this thread a clarification of this comment. Who are the “dissidents” and what specifically makes them “dissidents”? If you don’t want to name names, then please have the courage to list the specific things you see that makes people “dissident”.
Just for the record, here is the definition from www.yourdictionary.com:
- One who disagrees; a dissenter.*
I think you should tell us which specific examples you are referring to when you say say this. Since I post alot of pictures on these forums and much advertising about what-not, I would love to know if you feel I have made any specific “put-down’s” of legitimate N.O. worship preferences. If it was not me, then please stil share with us a specific example of this most serious charge.
As for calling it proselytizing and disruption of the unity of the Body of Christ, this is really quite outrageous. However, if you are talking about proselytizing by pulling people from the Most Holy Catholic Church into the SSPX or into AmChurch where “Catholics” who advocate "pro-choice and pro-homosexual agendas, then I would say it is accurate.
Would you call it proselytizing what Charismatics do in promoting their style of worship? How about the style of worship you promote - your own style. Are you trying to proselytize us into how you like to worship?
I hope you can see how so much confusion can come about as a result of your post and I really think you need to clarify and cite specifics so that we don’t misunderstand you.
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Joysong
Guest
Agreed, Altar man, that there would be so few in attendance that it would not warrant a separate liturgy. There was a fuss-budget in my parish who actually went to the Bishop to have a latin mass in our parish, and father agreed if the Bishop would ask it of him. Yet it never happened because nobody else wanted it.
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AltarMan
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I think if the faithful* truly demanded and supported *the celebration of the Tridentine Mass in large numbers, we would see far more of it…
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Chris_in_Mich
Guest
In 1988 it may have been the case that TLM attendents tended to be “dissidents” but the people in this article claim obidience to the bishop and the Pope and are not, nor does venting about abuse make one a dissident.
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Chris_in_Mich
Guest
Demand?
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Which is why it is good to designate certain parishes for these things, and set it up so that no one has to drive 100 miles to get one. When that happens, people come from all over.
While Ss Cyril & Methodius has a Novus Ordo mainly in the vernacular, it is jam packed, with 6 Masses on Sunday. The demographics of the parish are interested because many who go there are not within the geographical boundaries, I’m am certain. It is an ethnic parish (Slovak), but many of the parishioners are not Slovak. It offers a reverent and reserved liturgy, free of folk-music, lots of physical contact and above all, free of conversations in the pew. People like this and when they can’t get it in their geographical parish, they look elsewhere for it.
People in my parish aren’t there necessarily for the Latin. Some don’t even like it. They are there for the culture that surrounds the use of Latin.
Furthermore, there are parishes in my neck of the woods which are known as “charismatic”. Anyone who is charismatic flocks to these and by that act, these parishes have become charismatic communities. It is no differnet with traditional Catholic communities. Traditional Catholics flock to where they can get traditional Catholic liturgies and orthodox preaching.
Who is to say that the Holy Spirit guides the Charismatic community and not the Traditional Catholic community, whether their liturgy is TLM or N.O.? Who is big enough to judge that?
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AltarMan
Guest
I regularly attend a wonderful Byzantine/Ruthenian parish in addition to my home parish. 90%+ of the regular parishioners are disgruntled Latin Rite Catholics who refuse to attend the normative Pauline Mass. This parish pulls from throughout the local (Roman) deanery and beyond. Many drive over 50 miles to attend. I am guessing we have (at most) 150 attendees/Sunday, or about 135 people who would be attending the Tridentine Mass if it were available.
So 135 people out of more than 15 parishes attend the Divine Liturgy because they cannot stomach the normative Pauline Mass. That strongly suggests that the actual demand for the Tridentine Mass is quite low…
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
This is laughable in that it is totally ignorant of the many diocese which have not applied what Pope John Paul II asked of them. He asked specifically that all dioceses be generous in offering the TLM. Have the bishops and Cardinals obeyed him? The answer is “No” - not even close. TLM’s cannot be found in whole states despite clear petitions by hundreds for them.
For example, people in Phoenix had been asking prior to Bishop Olmstead. Soon after he was installed, they not only got their TLM, but more are coming from what I have heard and people are flocking to these Masses. In some cases, it is the only Mass they can go to free of radical abuse. They had a truly troubled diocese with much true dissent in that homosexuality was being promoted within individual parish cultures among other things. Catholics have a right to come to worship without being exposed to pro-homosexual affinity groups within their parishes, and liturgies that are free of dance and priests dressed like clowns and the like.
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
I can guarantee you that it has little to do with the Pauline Mass as it does the irrevernet, noisy, manner in which they are celebrated. They are looking for tranquility and silence, not drums, guitars, (and in my case accordions, harmonicas, etc.). They are looking for something uplifting, such as chant.
Don’t kid yourself that more would not take on this kind of “normative Pauline Mass”. If Assumption Grotto were in the burbs, she would be bursting at the seams like Ss Cyril & Methodius.
Why are all of these American Catholics flocking to a Slovakian latin rite parish which is out of their geographical boundaries? BTW - it is all allowable by the Archdiocese of Detroit so people are not breaking any rules or norms. Detroit did this many years ago because if geographical bounds were adhered to, they would have to close 100% of the Church’s in Detroit because Catholics have pretty much abandoned the city years ago.
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Lapsed
Guest
Tend to lean conservative? How is this a problem?
The inference here is that being obedient to the Magesterium of the Church means that one is a “conservative” Catholic as opposed to a “mainstream” Catholic. I see a bigger problem if those considered “mainstream” Catholics reject the moral teachings of the Church. This is a far bigger problem than preferences for various liturgical forms.
It seems to me that “mainstream” should refer to those who actually adhere to the Church’s teachings, regardless of whether or not they form the majority in the pews.
Pro-abortion promoters of contraception and gay “marriage” are dissenting in a far more damaging way than those seeking more TLM’s.
Ecumenism is certainly a worthwhile and important pursuit, but not at the expense of watering down the teachings of the Church.
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ncjohn
Guest
Diane makes some good points here, and I for one am loathe to make any judgments about why someone prefers the TLM. There are those who just find it more reverent than what they are accustomed to in many NO parishes. There are those who grew up with it and didn’t like the change. There are many younger people who I personally believe are attracted to it because it’s just different than what they’ve experienced. And I’m sure there are some who just really do believe it’s “holier” or otherwise “better” in some way.
Regardless, it’s still ultimately just a preference, and if having it available brings more people in, so much the better. There will always be those who get to feeling “superior” about things, and likely would seek out something that will make them feel superior. That is a different issue altogether and shouldn’t, IMHO, give anyone cause to be judging either preference.
I personally love my parish, although many of you probably wouldn’t…and that’s ok! My prayer is that all of us can find a place where we can feel comfortable, but more importantly that we can find a place that helps us to focus on the worship that we’re there for rather than picking apart the liturgy style or the other people* in the pews.
Let there be peace on earth…and let it begin with US! *
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
But that’s NOT all of the masses in every diocese in every state and the TLM is not the only solution to abuse. I also find it very difficult to believe that all of the Masses offered in the Diocese of Phoenix were subject to such radical abuse. They had no other option? The only way to deal with it was to attend the TLM?
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SnorterLuster
Guest
Speaking only for myself, I attend a TLM for the emphasis on worship of God, not the fellowship of my fellow parishoners. I can “stomach” the N.O., but admittedly, I cannot stomach the abuses that my previous parish participated in. Your numbers can indicate many things including a very apathetic laity. I don’t really think you can extrapolate those numbers into the demand for the TLM.
It doesn’t sound like the Latin Community in Buffalo is too worried about the demand for a traditional parish; it sounds more like the Bishop is worried about the demand for a traditional parish.
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
JKirkLVNV said:
The bottom line is that the Church has not only sanctioned TLM’s, the Pope John Paul II has asked ALL bishops to make it generously available.
Not only has this not been done, especially in some of the diocese run by progressive prelates, but people continue to be critical of those who want to attend. Some are critical of those who wish to attend or belong to TLM communities. I say community because most people do not want to go to Church simply for the Mass. Rather they want to gather as a body, much in the same way my traditional N.O. community gathers outside of the Mass.
What is so wrong with this that those desiring the TLM should come under such scrutiny?
As far as evangelizing goes, I have read many accounts on these forums from former Episcopalians and Anglicans who themselves had difficulty with the folk Masses, physical contact and “busy-ness” of the typical contemporary N.O. I’ve read accounts where some converts feel more at home at a TLM than they do at some contemporary N.O. parishes.
Once again, we cannot know if God is using this as an instrument.
Furthermore, if they allow these people to have a parish, give it 10 years and I can guarantee we will she following (with some things showing immediately such as sacramental life):
-Evidence that NFP rules and ABC is not supported (very large families)
- Rich sacramental life, and loads of people taking advantage of frequent confession, unlike “St. Suburbia” where many eat and drink of their own condemnation (unless the large masses that go up each week for communion despite empty confession lines are all saints).
- Vocations, vocations, vocations - priests and traditional religious. We see a boom taking place in religious orders which are orthodox and a decline in those where true dissent rules. This true dissent includes nuns who are still pushing for women priests, despite Ordinatio Sacerdotalis which belongs to the deposit of faith for 10 years + now.
Anyone wanting statistics let me know and I will start a thread on this phenomena of the traditional boom happening at orthodox holy and religious orders. I recently seen a program on it on EWTN as the head of the Institute of Religious Studies talked about it.
I also think people go to TLM’s not only to get away from guitar Masses and contemporary Music, but to experience content rich sermons which do not avoid any subject. There are plenty of priests, including my own pastor and Fr. John Corapi who can attest to attempts by seminary rectors and others to keep them from teaching the fullness of the faith because they may not be politically correct.
When I listen to people who attend TLM’s it is not just the awe-struck feeling they get from the beauty of the liturgy itself, the tranquility it brings due to the silence, chant and reserved music, but I often hear them talk about the richness of the homilies. Talk they cannot hear in most parishes these days.
This is not a problem with the Novus Ordo. It is a problem with the priests who were poorly trained and brain-washed into believing they shouldn’t talk about ABC, NFP, mortification of the apetites, sin, abortion, what we watch on TV and the like. My experience with sermons prior to Grotto was complete banality. No wonder I couldn’t follow them. No wonder I strayed so far from the faith before getting hit between the eyes during Grotto homilies and talks. This brought about true joy and it is this true joy people seek. They feel they can find it in a TLM and in reality they should be able to experience it in a N.O. the way I do, and the way JNB does, and others who have reverent, reserved, tranquil liturgies, rich in homiletic content, and making use of some of the most wondeful sacred music and chant the Catholic Church has given the world.
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Kielbasi
Guest
I have to agree with the way the Buffalo diocese is handling the indult currently.
To isolate the latin mass into a single parish , when the traditional latin mass is part of the heritage of all Catholics, is divisive.
Here in Pittsburgh, they’ve segregated the lat(name removed by moderator)hiles in the Northside, I don’t think we’ll ever see it on this side of the river, although there are as many Catholics here as there. Further, it gives the impression that somehow lat(name removed by moderator)hile Catholics are somehow more catholic than mainstream Catholics.
To isolate the latin mass into a single parish , when the traditional latin mass is part of the heritage of all Catholics, is divisive.
Here in Pittsburgh, they’ve segregated the lat(name removed by moderator)hiles in the Northside, I don’t think we’ll ever see it on this side of the river, although there are as many Catholics here as there. Further, it gives the impression that somehow lat(name removed by moderator)hile Catholics are somehow more catholic than mainstream Catholics.
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