TLM proponents "anti-ecumenical obstructionists of an evolving church"?

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

This is laughable in that it is totally ignorant of the many diocese which have not applied what Pope John Paul II asked of them. He asked specifically that all dioceses be generous in offering the TLM. Have the bishops and Cardinals obeyed him? The answer is “No” - not even close. TLM’s cannot be found in whole states despite clear petitions by hundreds for them.

For example, people in Phoenix had been asking prior to Bishop Olmstead. Soon after he was installed, they not only got their TLM, but more are coming from what I have heard and people are flocking to these Masses. In some cases, it is the only Mass they can go to free of radical abuse. They had a truly troubled diocese with much true dissent in that homosexuality was being promoted within individual parish cultures among other things. Catholics have a right to come to worship without being exposed to pro-homosexual affinity groups within their parishes, and liturgies that are free of dance and priests dressed like clowns and the like.

No, it’s not “laughable” – at least to Catholics who actually ponder a given situation. In my deanery (and beyond) we have enough demand for the Tridentine Mass for perhaps one small Mass/week. The preeners would still be whining their guts out about having to travel so far, and that the diocese was “limiting” the indult – in reality, actual demand would be limiting its celebration.

Also, don’t try to equate either the Pauline Mass OR the Tridentine Mass with the specific problems you mention for that truly would would be laughable.

In ad orientum grottos;

AltarMan

 

[JKirkLVNV]

SnorterLuster:

Speaking only for myself, I attend a TLM for the emphasis on worship of God, not the fellowship of my fellow parishoners. I can “stomach” the N.O., but admittedly, I cannot stomach the abuses that my previous parish participated in. Your numbers can indicate many things including a very apathetic laity. I don’t really think you can extrapolate those numbers into the demand for the TLM. With respect, Diane, this is precisely what I was talking about. I have attended Mass at 5 of the urban parishes in my diocese. The Masses are PACKED. Parking is a problem, even though the number of Masses from the Saturday vigil to the “last-ditch-effort-to-get -to-Mass” Mass at 5:00 PM on Sunday night have increased. You have to stand in long lines to go to Confession at all but one of those parishes. I don’t think Catholics here are apathetic. It almost sounds as though you’re saying,“If there isn’t a push for the TLM, your people might be apathetic.” That’s kind of slap in the face for those of us who show up for the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet before the packed Masses. There isn’t just one type of orthodox Catholic. We haven’t heard anyone asking for a Latin Mass, no mailings, no petitions, nada. But I guess we’re just apathetic. That’s the point I think Joysong was trying to make: attitudes like this are what MIGHT prevent anyone from sympathyzing with or supporting those who DO want the TLM. I won’t ever go to one, outside of a funeral or a wedding, but it’s also my willingness to encourage generosity for those that DO want it that’s on the wane. Who wants to be constantly reminded that one’s own beloved Mass is substandard, less than reverent, etc.? Even your own words betray that attitude, ie*,"*Speaking only for myself, I attend a TLM for the emphasis on worship of God, not the fellowship of my fellow parishoners." That seems to imply that those of us who attend the Pauline Mass must do so for less than exalted purposes or that the Pauline Mass is so deffective that you couldn’t possibly get anything else out of it other than parochial fellowship! Lots of us go to that Mass to pray, to worship God, to attend upon and assist at the Sacrifice.

.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

No, it’s not “laughable” – at least to Catholics who actually ponder a given situation. In my deanery (and beyond) we have enough demand for the Tridentine Mass for perhaps one small Mass/week. The preeners would still be whining their guts out about having to travel so far, and that the diocese was “limiting” the indult – in reality, actual demand would be limiting its celebration.

Also, don’t try to equate either the Pauline Mass OR the Tridentine Mass with the specific problems you mention for that truly would would be laughable.

In ad orientum grottos;

AltarMan

I didn’t equat them with the problems.

What I am saying, and I say it in my previous post is that people are looking for a culture and they feel they can get that culture through a community which supports many things they all value.

Your comment “In ad orientem grottos;” seems incomplete. What are you getting at? Please elaborate.

 

[SnorterLuster]

**

With respect, Diane, this is precisely what I was talking about. I have attended Mass at 5 of the urban parishes in my diocese. The Masses are PACKED. Parking is a problem, even though the number of Masses from the Saturday vigil to the “last-ditch-effort-to-get -to-Mass” Mass at 5:00 PM on Sunday night have increased. You have to stand in long

lines to go to Confession at all but one of those parishes. I don’t think Catholics here are apathetic. It almost sounds as though you’re saying,“If there isn’t a push for the TLM, your people might be apathetic.” That’s kind of slap in the face for those of us who show up for the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet before the packed Masses. There isn’t just one type of orthodox Catholic. We haven’t heard anyone asking for a Latin Mass, no mailings, no petitions, nada. But I guess we’re just apathetic.
**
Sorry JKirk, that was me that wrote that. Apathetic was probably not the best word I could of used, I was only trying to point out that AltarMans interpretation of attendance at an Eastern mass was not necessarily indicative of demand for the TLM.

By apathetic, I was only trying to indicate that many, many Catholics around here go to mass and that is just about the limit of their involvement. They don’t care if it is TLM, N.O. or a clown mass–they just want to get their Sunday obligation out of the way and go home. Oh, they might not like the noise, or the homily, or some other part of the Mass, but it wasn’t important enough to them to talk to Father about it. What was important that the mass not run over 50 minutes. Anything longer and you could here the grumbling even before mass ended.

There are many devout Catholics that I left behind in my old parish and there are many devout Catholics at my TLM parish. But I would observe that my TLM parish appears to have a higher number of committed Catholics for the simple reason that most have to come some distance to attend.

 

[Joysong]

Diane,

This is what I’m talking about, and since you asked for public response, I feel obliged to assist you. Altarman posted: “So 135 people out of more than 15 parishes attend the Divine Liturgy”

You responded:

• “Don’t kid yourself that more would not take on this kind of “normative Pauline Mass”. If Assumption Grotto were in the burbs, she would be bursting at the seams like Ss Cyril & Methodius.”
• “Why are all of these American Catholics flocking to a Slovakian latin rite parish which is out of their geographical boundaries?”

Again in post #33:

• For example, people in Phoenix had been asking prior to Bishop Olmstead. Soon after he was installed, they not only got their TLM, but more are coming from what I have heard and people are flocking to these Masses.

We who see you use these overactive verbs with reference to your preferred style of mass tend to think of you as advertising and promoting something, which makes me scratch my head in wonder, because it is simply not true about the jam-packed, flocking, and bursting at the seams terminology you are accustomed to using. And not only here in this thread.

135 people out of 15 entire parishes? In my parish, one person? And these people are transients, not parishioners, who come to mass at your latin N.O. In the photos you provided, the pews did not look exactly jam-packed to me. Shall we believe this is a true picture of the entire catholic population, as if they are hungering for the old mass, but being deprived somehow?

Which brings me back to the national poll I mentioned. It would certainly be interesting to see the results. I’m not calling anyone a dissident, per se, but I think you subconsciously, out of preference and love for your own style of worship, over-emphacize the facts in order to promote it.

In post #33, you stated:

• Catholics have a right to come to worship without being exposed to pro-homosexual affinity groups within their parishes, and liturgies that are free of dance and priests dressed like clowns and the like.
• I can guarantee you that it has little to do with the Pauline Mass as it does the irreverent, noisy, manner in which they are celebrated. They are looking for tranquility and silence, not drums, guitars, (and in my case accordions, harmonicas, etc.). They are looking for something uplifting, such as chant.

Just how many parishes nationwide do you believe use dance? And you provided awhile ago** one **picture of a clown at mass. How many parishes nationwide can be said to have priests dressed in a clown suit? Come on! You use isolated extremes to justify that regular N.O. liturgies are just not good enough in your estimation, and I do take exception to that because it is a false judgment of many beautiful liturgies that you have never been exposed to in the universal church.

As for the second point of #33, you stipulate wrongly and as a generality, that people at the Pauline mass find irreverence, drums, guitars, noise. etc. Now in a court of law, your statement would be labeled “hearsay,” be inadmissible, and the burden of proof would be upon you, the plaintiff, to prove it. Your words continuously plead a cause against the N.O. mass. Just look at the references to it in this thread alone.

I might add that because a dozen or so people post on the board here about some of the things you cite above, it may not be true of the universal church, but only of their personal experience. It is not right to label all churches, all liturgies, all N.O. masses as unorthodox, irreverent, noisy, abusive, and/or whatever else people are accustomed to holding in their minds after reading these threads on C.A. I meant nobody in particular, but in general.

As ncjohn mentioned, we are all very excited for one another that there are many styles of worship, and yes, he included charismatic, with which you also find fault. Why is it that you want all of us to accept your preference, but you put down any and all other styles as unorthodox or just not suitable?

I only beg the same privilege of worship in my own way as you do, without feeling like a second-rate catholic. That’s about it, I suppose, but I don’t give a lot of hope to being heard.

Carole

 

[Eileen_T]

My husband and I drive to a nearby parish which celebrates the TLM on Sundays after the NO Mass. The same priest celebrates both Masses, and he is a holy and reverent priest.

The difference between the two Masses is not the manner of his celebration, it is the use of banal songs (nobody could call many of them hymns), as well as certain practices that have been brought in by the ‘Liturgy Committee’ most of whom I seriously doubt have read Church documents on the Liturgy. And yes, the use of guitars and drums, especially immediately after Communion - no sacred silence anymore.

A book I discovered a couple of years ago, How Christ Said the First Mass by Fr James Meagher, really opened my eyes to how close the TLM is to how Yahweh instructed the Jews to worship Him in the Temple at Jerusalem.

There are times when I am unable to attend the TLM and after re-experiencing the local NO Mass, I can’t wait to get back ‘home’.

Going back to the OP as to whether or not TLMers are “anti-ecumenical obstructionists of an evolving church”, there are many legitimate ‘Rites’ within the Catholic Church. I think that if the numbers warrent, and a church is available as is likely the case in Buffalo, they deserve to be given a hearing.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Diane,

This is what I’m talking about, and since you asked for public response, I feel obliged to assist you. Altarman posted: “So 135 people out of more than 15 parishes attend the Divine Liturgy”

You responded:

• “Don’t kid yourself that more would not take on this kind of “normative Pauline Mass”. If Assumption Grotto were in the burbs, she would be bursting at the seams like Ss Cyril & Methodius.”
• “Why are all of these American Catholics flocking to a Slovakian latin rite parish which is out of their geographical boundaries?”

A parish that has 6 Sunday Masses that are full, and has received permission to expand is not “bursting at the seams”??? This is overreacting?

This is a Novus Ordo Mass, not a TLM. Why do these people not go to the parishes within their own boundaries? Why do we see long confession lines in this parish with people of varying ages when there are no more than a handful in the 8 or so in which I have gone to? Are the people getting something in this parish that they are not getting elsewhere?

So many people have told me that they would come to Grotto if it weren’t for the location. It is in one of the roughest neighborhoods Detroit has, yet still boasts over 700 families (very, very large families and so you don’t think I’m exaggerating each page of our directory is riddled with 7, 8, 10, 12, and in one case 17 children!). Contrast that to many other urban parishes which have few, if any Catholics within its geographical boundaries.

I think you should come and see for yourself what I am speaking about Ss Cyril & Methodius, often dubbed, little Grotto here in Metro Detroit. And, while you are at it ask Fr. Ben just how many parishioners are of Slovak ethnicity or descent. Ask how many live within the geographical boundaries. Ask about the rate of growth - how many new parishioners are joining monthly.

Again in post #33:

• For example, people in Phoenix had been asking prior to Bishop Olmstead. Soon after he was installed, they not only got their TLM, but more are coming from what I have heard and people are flocking to these Masses.

We who see you use these overactive verbs with reference to your preferred style of mass tend to think of you as advertising and promoting something, which makes me scratch my head in wonder, because it is simply not true about the jam-packed, flocking, and bursting at the seams terminology you are accustomed to using. And not only here in this thread.
My preferred style of Mass? My preferred style of Mass is the Novus Ordo traditional style, not TLM. I’ve never been to a TLM, but I respect those who choose to celebrate them. Anyone who has a beef with those who celebrate the TLM may as well take it up with Holy Mother Church who sanctions these Masses.

continued next post…

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

135 people out of 15 entire parishes? In my parish, one person? And these people are transients, not parishioners, who come to mass at your latin N.O. In the photos you provided, the pews did not look exactly jam-packed to me.

Transients? That’s charitable.

Not parishioners? How do you surmise this, through osmosis?

Actually, this is coming across as venemous

Sure, in the Saturday Mass by Archbishop Burke there were only about 150 in attendance that I could count (not including the wings which were not visible, and the vestibule or under the balcony where some parents take their 1 and 2 year olds). The event was not publicized well and was for Marian Catechists. However, for a Saturday morning Mass, I’d say 150 is a good number for any parish.

The Church holds about 800 people. With 700 families split up between the 4:00pm Christmas Liturgy, the midnight liturgy (latin) , the 6:30 am liturgy, the 9:30 am Liturgy (latin) and Noon Liturgy, yeah - it can look a little scant in some photos. I guess the midnight Mass one might look a little fuller if we put the 30 or so altar boys back into the pews. However, people with small children were not inclined to be in large numbers at a midnight Mass which is the only one I took pictures in.

Our New Years Eve Mass only had about 200-250 people. So, how many parishioners attended your New Years Eve Mass?

So, how many attended your parish this past Saturday morning?

continued next post…

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Which brings me back to the national poll I mentioned. It would certainly be interesting to see the results. I’m not calling anyone a dissident, per se, but I think you subconsciously, out of preference and love for your own style of worship, over-emphacize the facts in order to promote it.

But you did call us dissidents and by your post addressing me you acknowledge it was, in part, aimed at me.

Just how many parishes nationwide do you believe use dance? And you provided awhile ago** one **picture of a clown at mass. How many parishes nationwide can be said to have priests dressed in a clown suit? Come on! You use isolated extremes to justify that regular N.O. liturgies are just not good enough in your estimation, and I do take exception to that because it is a false judgment of many beautiful liturgies that you have never been exposed to in the universal church.

As for the second point of #33, you stipulate wrongly and as a generality, that people at the Pauline mass find irreverence, drums, guitars, noise. etc. Now in a court of law, your statement would be labeled “hearsay,” be inadmissible, and the burden of proof would be upon you, the plaintiff, to prove it. Your words continuously plead a cause against the N.O. mass. Just look at the references to it in this thread alone.

How many parishes use dance? What I was referring to and didn’t make clear is that some dioceses are acting in a rogue manner. When I have a few minutes I’ll start a new thread and ask how many people have witnessed liturgical dance and ask how widespread it is within a given diocese. Lets find out. I believe it is more clustered. Just like the Rochester diocese has been using lay people as homilists, cloaked under some other premise, my archdiocese does not have this going on in large part. At least I have not heard of it. Things come in clusters and for some people, they try several parishes around them and are stuck, or are in rural areas with few options.

Now, please be careful not to tell everyone I am saying ALL the parishes in Rochester are using lay people to do homiles. But, in contrast to other dioceses there is a concentration there that you likely won’t find in my diocese or maybe even your diocese. This is a no-no. Are people going to go to a traditional novus ordo parish because of it. Maybe some would and maybe others might go to the contemporary parish down the road that isn’t doing this.

Some people have a hard time finding an abuse-free liturgy. Aside from abuse free, is the atmosphere one prefers for worship, which goes to my second point. I’m saying that some people have a hard time with the drums, guitars, and pew conversations and to infer I stated all suffered this is plain silly. At this point, you’re just looking to pick an argument. Good grief. I had personal experience as well and was drawing from that.

In my last 7 parishes, conversation before and after mass was disturbing and disruptive. Now that I have experienced the serenity of a church where the people value silence in Church and conversation and social time outside of Church, I cannot go back to any of those parishes. This is what I mean by noisy and irreverent. Last I heard, Arinze called it out as well. However, at both parishes where silence prevails, at Grotto and Ss C & M, you could hear a hair drop on the floor. Are there more parishes in the area that observe this? Possibly. I can’t visit every parish in the diocese. Word gets around as to who has the tranquil liturgies just as word gets around as to who has the liturgies with a heavy charismatic preference.

I go to Ss C & M to the 6:00am weekday Mass because Grotto does not have one that early. There are approximately 50-70 people each day and I can close my eyes and feel like I’m all alone with God. I could not get this in the other parishes I bounced around in. I had no idea what I was seeking in a parish until I found it at Grotto & C&M. Both parishes have signs from the pastors asking for holy silence. Sometimes this is all it takes. Most people have no idea how noisy their parishes are until they step into a parish like mine or C&M. I was shocked by the silence when I first got to Grotto. Shocked! How sad that holy silence could not be observed in all those other parishes. I can relate to why people want to get away from it. Lack of silence = irreverence and I do believe we can find writings from members of the CDW and the Popes to support it. I know I’ve read it.

continued next post…

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Finally, the last one…phew. I can’t help not wanting to defend myself against false allegations about my intentions and even my positions.

I only beg the same privilege of worship in my own way as you do, without feeling like a second-rate catholic. That’s about it, I suppose, but I don’t give a lot of hope to being heard.

Carole

You say YOU don’t want to be treated as a second-rate Catholic but you come after anything where traditional worship is mentioned as if your way is somehow threatened.

I’ll pray that you don’t feel like a second-rate Catholic and you pray that I don’t feel like a second-rate Catholic. However, I can tell you that those who prefer the open arm, touchy feely kind of worship Charismatics esouse is far more readily accepted in any of those 7 parishes to which I previously belonged. However, if I had genuflected to the ground (mandated in the GIRM for those physically able), received communion on the tongue (legitimate per the GIRM), and wanted to have some Latin in my liturgy (promoted by Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict, and Cardinal Arinze), I would get a bad look or a blank stare.

Who truly is the second rate Catholic? What you do unto the least of us…

End of reply to Joysong.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Bishop Kmiec needs to talk to my bishop who established a traditional Rite-only parish in a historic church several months after he took over last year. Even our Diocesan Chancellor has taken us under his wing and is following the renovation/restoration plans closely and assisting wherever possible.

No parallel churches here. But then, there’s always plenty of Chicken Littles screeching about something or other. :nope:

 

[Joysong]

As I anticipated, Diane, saying I doubt I would be heard, you have as usual twisted my words to your own purpose, avoided my questions, and justified your errors with further excuses. I will add your name to my ignore list, as it is truly my last post. You win.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

SnorterLuster:

Sorry JKirk, that was me that wrote that. Apathetic was probably not the best word I could of used, I was only trying to point out that AltarMans interpretation of attendance at an Eastern mass was not necessarily indicative of demand for the TLM.

.

No, I owe Diane an apology, sure enoug and big as day, it said “SnorterLuster” in the post. I don’t know how I got hold of the notion that it was her post.

Diane, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

I just very much feel I have to defend “my” mass. I attended this evening and this is an example of what I mean. This was just the daily mass at this parish and there were over 100 people. Apathy isn’t a problem among Las Vegas’ Catholics. Anyway…

Pax, Snorter!

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

As I anticipated, Diane, saying I doubt I would be heard, you have as usual twisted my words to your own purpose, avoided my questions, and justified your errors with further excuses. I will add your name to my ignore list, as it is truly my last post. You win.

I twisted? I think you have it backwards Carole. You are the one who mistated my position several times within your one post.

I have a right to defend myself against false accusations and misrepresentations.

One example:

As ncjohn mentioned, we are all very excited for one another that there are many styles of worship, and yes, he included charismatic, with which you also find fault. Why is it that you want all of us to accept your preference, but you put down any and all other styles as unorthodox or just not suitable?

This isn’t bearing false witness? How did I fault Charismatic worship? Because I questioned tongues in the Mass? For the record there are many who would call themselves charismatic that I deeply respect for their devoutness and reverence in the Mass. For starters is Fr. Benedict Groeschel and Mother Angelica. I wonder if either would agree that tongues has a place during Holy Mass. I don’t see them happening in Hanceville, at least on TV, which incidentally is the kind of Mass I experience.

I have a right to raise such a question and have an opinion and this does not make me biased against charismatic worship as a whole. Both of these fine people have charismatic roots and both are devout and admirably loyal to the magisterium. That makes them not only charismatic, but orthodox in my book. I also personally know many who call themselves charismatic, who do not go off in tongues during the Mass, who are also devout, pray the rosary, do the divine office, do the divine mercy chaplet and are loyal to the magisterium on all I have discussed with them.

Unorthodox to me is when people are aware of a teaching, such as that which is against Artificial Birth Control, and they choose to dismiss it. Or, when people are aware of the teaching on women’s ordination, but persist in pushing the issue. Orthodox in my book is also following the GIRM in all its simplicity, not looking for loopholes like a kid invading a candy jar.

Don’t confuse orthodox with traditional. Traditional liturgies don’t have contemporary music. Contemporary liturgies do and contemporary liturgies can be orthodox. Traditional liturgies often have no physical contact; contemporary liturgies do and this practice, when following the GIRM and other clarifications given by the Holy See, make them orthodox in my book. They are orthodox because they follow the instructions. Traditional liturgies have a very different level of reverence, which is often rooted in silence and tranquility, and it is a humble experience that takes place between a person and his God, often through gestures. Contemporary worship may look at reverence as something different, which I have not quite figured out yet.

The problem you and I have is that for some reason you feel that I don’t believe that there are contemporary liturgies that can be orthodox. Let me state for the record that they can be. But, in some areas contemporary liturgies have strayed from orthodoxy in that they hold an atitude that the GIRM is just a set of suggestions, not something they need to follow. This deprives people of their due.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

JKirkLVNV:

No, I owe Diane an apology, sure enoug and big as day, it said “SnorterLuster” in the post. I don’t know how I got hold of the notion that it was her post.

Diane, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

I just very much feel I have to defend “my” mass. I attended this evening and this is an example of what I mean. This was just the daily mass at this parish and there were over 100 people. Apathy isn’t a problem among Las Vegas’ Catholics. Anyway…

Pax, Snorter!

No problem. I spotted the error but figured it would work itself out

Please read my post above and you’ll see I am not against contemporary Masses that are orthodox and I define orthdox. I have a problem with Masses, most of which are contemporary, that are not orthodox in that they don’t follow the GIRM and other clarifications provided by the Holy See. In such parishes you will find that they treat the GIRM like they do the 10 commandments - like suggestions.

At Grotto it doesn’t matter who I talk to, they fully support all that is in the deposit of faith and do not question it. It feels good to be around like minded people who want to learn about the faith, and to live it, rather than challenge it. Some parishes out there advocate dissent and I’ve been in some of those. My childhood parish was a bastion for progressives. It has changed under a priest who is a follower of the Magisterium, not a challenger or dissident of the Magisterium. About 1/3 of the parish was gone overnight when the progressive monsingor was reassigned to another parish they followed him, leaving the new pastor literally without a staff). He was unceremoniously side-lined out of that parish when complaints riddled the archdiocese there about his agenda. That was about 15 years ago. In the meanwhile, since getting to Grotto I have found several former parishioners of that parish that left in the years prior to that progressive monsignor. They was an outflow. Mention the name of my parish today and you get funny stares because the stigma is still there.

Not everyone experiences this. But we can’t put our head in the sand and pretend it is only sporadic. It depends on the diocese and my diocese before Cardinal Maida was really on a progressive upswing. He is not tough like some out there, but he really toned things down for the better. He followed the Pope’s instruction and permitted the TLM and is allowing more Masses at St. Josephat. I will take one in this summer, but I have no need to go on a regular basis because I have a Novus Ordo that is celebrated to the letter and happens to be traditional in the way I defined above. I love the silence and tranquility of it and the rich homilies I just cannot get elsewhere. I tried in 7 parishes over about 20 years.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

**This thread contains some excellent examples of dialogue and discussion. Unfortunately, it also has more than its share of sniping and uncharitable comments - some of which will have consequences for those involved should they continue.

If the subject of the thread has completed itself, I am open to any request to close it unless some constructive discussion of the article can resume.

Depersonalize commentary, stay on subject, and edit prior to posting, **

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Lux_et_veritas:

No problem. I spotted the error but figured it would work itself out

Please read my post above and you’ll see I am not against contemporary Masses that are orthodox and I define orthdox. I have a problem with Masses, most of which are contemporary, that are not orthodox in that they don’t follow the GIRM and other clarifications provided by the Holy See. In such parishes you will find that they treat the GIRM like they do the 10 commandments - like suggestions. And I should also clarify (and I would bet Joysong would agree) that I’m not enamored of things “contemporary.” I’m also not remotely “progressivist,” I guess would be the word. I don’t think it’s terribly helpful to add apendages and appelations, but if I had to put it into words, I would simply say this: I converted during the reign of John Paul II and he has had an heroic influence over my life. I’m not a "Spirit of Vatican II " Catholic, I’m more of a “John Paul II” Catholic and those are two different things (really, I’m just a Catholic). The Mass of Paul VI is all I’ve ever known liturgically, save for the rites of the Episcopal church, and I love it. My reaction to liturgical dance or a priest dressed as a clown or a paraphrasing of the canon or a feminist nun holding forth from the ambo would be the same as yours, Diane: I would be horrified.

At Grotto it doesn’t matter who I talk to, they fully support all that is in the deposit of faith and do not question it. It feels good to be around like minded people who want to learn about the faith, and to live it, rather than challenge it. Some parishes out there advocate dissent and I’ve been in some of those. My childhood parish was a bastion for progressives. It has changed under a priest who is a follower of the Magisterium, not a challenger or dissident of the Magisterium. About 1/3 of the parish was gone overnight when the progressive monsingor was reassigned to another parish they followed him, leaving the new pastor literally without a staff). He was unceremoniously side-lined out of that parish when complaints riddled the archdiocese there about his agenda. That was about 15 years ago. In the meanwhile, since getting to Grotto I have found several former parishioners of that parish that left in the years prior to that progressive monsignor. They was an outflow. Mention the name of my parish today and you get funny stares because the stigma is still there. **I’ve known the agenda you’re talking about. When I taught on the Navajo Reservation, my parish was “run” by two nuns, at least one of whom would not make it into the Pope’s top ten list of “these are a few of my favorite things” (I called her Atila the Nun). I guess I became accustomed to seeking the truth on my own (one reason that I’m glad of CA). It never crossed over into the Mass, though. **

Not everyone experiences this. But we can’t put our head in the sand and pretend it is only sporadic. It depends on the diocese and my diocese before Cardinal Maida was really on a progressive upswing. He is not tough like some out there, but he really toned things down for the better. He followed the Pope’s instruction and permitted the TLM and is allowing more Masses at St. Josephat. I will take one in this summer, but I have no need to go on a regular basis because I have a Novus Ordo that is celebrated to the letter and happens to be traditional in the way I defined above. I love the silence and tranquility of it and the rich homilies I just cannot get elsewhere. I tried in 7 parishes over about 20 years.

**I’ve only known one gifted homilist in my years as a Catholic (Monsignor Leo Gomez of Farmington, New Mexico, who could give Fr. Corapi a run for his money). I’ve given up on a well-organized, well-delivered homily. But then, I was raised Baptist and they really knew how to preach, even when they “had ahold of the wrong end of the stick.” **

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

I can guarantee you that it has little to do with the Pauline Mass as it does the irrevernet, noisy, manner in which they are celebrated. They are looking for tranquility and silence, not drums, guitars, (and in my case accordions, harmonicas, etc.). They are looking for something uplifting, such as chant.

Don’t kid yourself that more would not take on this kind of “normative Pauline Mass”. If Assumption Grotto were in the burbs, she would be bursting at the seams like Ss Cyril & Methodius.

Why are all of these American Catholics flocking to a Slovakian latin rite parish which is out of their geographical boundaries? BTW - it is all allowable by the Archdiocese of Detroit so people are not breaking any rules or norms. Detroit did this many years ago because if geographical bounds were adhered to, they would have to close 100% of the Church’s in Detroit because Catholics have pretty much abandoned the city years ago.

Plainly put, you don’t know these people and your comments clearly reflect that truth. In sum, you can’t guarantee anything – at least on this issue, in my diocese.

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

I didn’t equat them with the problems.

What I am saying, and I say it in my previous post is that people are looking for a culture and they feel they can get that culture through a community which supports many things they all value.

Your comment “In ad orientem grottos;” seems incomplete. What are you getting at? Please elaborate.

Please don’t try to spin your comments once you have made them:

“For example, people in Phoenix had been asking prior to Bishop Olmstead. Soon after he was installed, they not only got their TLM, but more are coming from what I have heard and people are flocking to these Masses. In some cases, it is the only Mass they can go to free of radical abuse.”

You are doing nothing more here than attempting to suggest that the Tridentine Mass is some sorta silver bullet that frees people of “radical abuse” – that one of the most serious mistakes made by preeners…

 

[AltarMan]

SnorterLuster:

Speaking only for myself, I attend a TLM for the emphasis on worship of God, not the fellowship of my fellow parishoners. I can “stomach” the N.O., but admittedly, I cannot stomach the abuses that my previous parish participated in. Your numbers can indicate many things including a very apathetic laity. I don’t really think you can extrapolate those numbers into the demand for the TLM.

It doesn’t sound like the Latin Community in Buffalo is too worried about the demand for a traditional parish; it sounds more like the Bishop is worried about the demand for a traditional parish.

Personally, I can’t stomach the horrid liturgical abuses that have long been committed during the celebration of the Tridentine Mass:

The Old Mass
Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

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