TLM to be reintroduced into EVERY PARISH in England and Wales

[SJP]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but I feel that the title is greatly exaggerated. I seriously doubt that EVERY PARISH will have a TLM.

All in good time. It would be foolish to expect every Parish in England to have the EF by next Sunday. However, the ground work is being established.

 

[deigloriam]

Lovely times in England…

TLM to be in every parish…

Traditional Anglicans looking to return to Rome…

Now all we need to do is send the dissenting Catholics to the Anglicans (hope they can afford all those bishops salaries)

 

[JuanCarlos]

I pray to God Benedict’s successor is not a liberal and nixes this plan. May Benedict live 100 years!

 

[Wolseley]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but I feel that the title is greatly exaggerated. I seriously doubt that EVERY PARISH will have a TLM.

From telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2129070/Latin-mass-to-return-to-England-and-Wales.html:

“Not many parishes – all parishes. The Holy Father is offering this not only for the few groups who demand it, but so that everybody knows this way of celebrating the Eucharist.”
—Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos.

I’d love to see the Holy Father require the same thing in America. Not only would people have the chance to attend a reverent Mass, it’d cause the “spirit of Vatican II”-type liberals to blow a gasket.

 

[freudmacher]

I’m Completely confused…

This article says “every Catholic parish in the world”

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0803186.htm

It’s says the Cardinal was in England, but that it’s for the entire world.

 

[CradleCath]

This is magnificent news! What fantastic things our Pope is doing for Tradition!

I read the article 3 times & still can hardly believe it. All of the years of trying to “adapt” to the New Mass, the frustration, the sneering of the liberal Catholics when anyone mentioned the TLM…it’s all worth it now.

GOD BLESS POPE BENEDICT!!! :clapping:

 

[AJV]

From telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2129070/Latin-mass-to-return-to-England-and-Wales.html:

“Not many parishes – all parishes. The Holy Father is offering this not only for the few groups who demand it, but so that everybody knows this way of celebrating the Eucharist.”
—Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos.

I’d love to see the Holy Father require the same thing in America. Not only would people have the chance to attend a reverent Mass, it’d cause the “spirit of Vatican II”-type liberals to blow a gasket.

I’m feeling on firmer ground today. On the New Liturgical Movement blog, Mr. Tribe posted

Yesterday, the headline came out that Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos had stated that “the traditional Latin Mass… is to be reintroduced into every Roman Catholic parish in England and Wales…” while visiting London. This has caused much stir and discussion.

The NLM questioned whether the Cardinal actually had said this, which came across as a juridical sort of requirement that seemed neither consonant with what we’ve heard before, nor terribly practical, rather than a wished-for or desireable state to work towards – the latter of which is a sentiment perfectly without surprise and in accord with the motu proprio and everything else we have heard on this subject from the Cardinal. To that we would do nothing but heartily agree.

However, the former, “requirement interpretation” seems to have gained some currency in blog comments boxes and therefore seems important to address in a more thorough way…

Damian Thompson recently released the edited text of the interview in question where the comments were made, which confirmed what I suspected in the original piece; namely, that no juridical requirement was being posited. Rather, what was being spoken of was the desirable scope of the motu proprio.

The rest:thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/

So it’s not a requirement, but a hope. I know I’m cynical, but hopes have been expressed for a long time. Like the patron of my country, St. Thomas, I’ll believe it when I see it. I’m not saying that there isn’t going to be any improvement - it’s just that I feel that people who envision TLM’s in every parish might well be setting themselves up for disappointment. If the heirachy(and some pastors) in any country, let alone England and Wales, have not responded favorably, I doubt the publication of an interview with Cardinal Hoyos will cause such drastic change.

I think I’ll now go and bury myself in the cranky Curmudgeon thread in the Clubhouse :coffeeread:

 

[ProVobis]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but I feel that the title is greatly exaggerated. I seriously doubt that EVERY PARISH will have a TLM.

Seeing that some parishes don’t even have a priest, I’m inclined to agree with you.

 

[ProVobis]

“Yesterday, the headline came out that Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos had stated that “the traditional Latin Mass… is to be reintroduced into every Roman Catholic parish in England and Wales…” while visiting London. This has caused much stir and discussion.”

Why is it that anything relating to the Latin Mass a.k.a. EF coming from Vatican spokespeople is questioned and/or undermined while everything reluctantly tolerated by the Vatican spokespeople concerning the OF is “fully approved” by and in “full communion” with the Vatican? Also, **why no such stir and discussion **when the Vatican spokespeople continue to claim the ICEL words of Consecration are fully and undisputably valid and anyone who says otherwise is schematic? I don’t know, maybe the Church isn’t a democracy, but she sure seems to tolerate a lot of democratic behavior when dealing with the Truth.

 

[thistle]

I can barely believe it . From Fr. Z:

"Damian Thompson covers and comments on the Pontifical Mass celebrated by His Eminence Dario Card. Castrillon Hoyos in Westminster Cathedral.

My **emphases **and comments.

Latin Mass to return to England and Wales
By Damian Thompson

The traditional Latin Mass – effectively banned by Rome for 40 years – is to be reintroduced into every Roman Catholic parish in England and Wales, [Get that?] the senior Vatican cardinal in charge of Latin liturgy said at a press conference in London today. [This was stated by someone who knows what he is talking about. He wouldn’t have said it if it was according to the Holy Father’s will. how can we knwo this? He made a similar statement before. Review http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/05/pceds-card-castrillon-hoyos-celebrate-tlm-in-parishes-even-when-it-isnt-requested/”]this. If the Secretariate of State or the Holy Father had a problem with what Card. Castrillon said back then, he wouldn’t be saying it in public now.]

In addition, all seminaries will be required to teach trainee priests how to say the old Mass so that they can celebrate it in all parishes. [Get that? Will… be… required…. ]

Catholic congregations throughout the world will receive special instruction on how to appreciate the old services, formerly known as the Tridentine Rite."

Full Story:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/06/uk-card-castrillon-hoyos-tlm-in-“not-many-parishes-–-all-parishes/

This is magnificent news! What fantastic things our Pope is doing for Tradition!

At this moment in time the official document relating to the TLM is still the Motu Proprio issued last September by the Pope. This document was clear that decisions on introducing the TLM are not a national level or diocese level. It is at parish level and that is only if there is a stable group that wants it. If there is a stable group that wants it then they can ask the priest and if he is willing at least one TLM would become available per week. If the parish priest is not willing then the stable group can take this to the bishop and likewise if he says no then it can be taken to Rome.
Conversely if there is no stable group wanting the TLM then neither the priest nor bishop or cardinal can impose it. For the TLM to become mandatory it would require an official document by the Pope declaring this and so far this has not been done.

 

[childofmary1143]

I hate to be a s*** disturber, but my favorite part of the article was where it said:

Yesterday’s announcement by the senior Vatican cardinal in charge of Latin liturgy, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, speaking on behalf of Pope Benedict XVI, will horrify Catholic liberals, including many bishops of England and Wales.

 

[jeanannemarie]

And what if there are not enough priests to say it ? The vestments & other wherewithal for offering it are not free (unfortunately), & the extra expenditure for a form of the Mass which is not even particularly well-attended may be hard to justify when dioceses & parishes are already short of cash. (Maybe that is a good reason for ordaining married men - so that they can offer the EF of the RR.)​

What is the point of bothering with an extra-ordinary form of the Roman Rite, when most Catholics in England & Wales don’t even go to the ordinary form ? It’s possible that the 70 % of Catholics who don’t attend Mass are all to a man crypto-Tridentinists, but it’s not exactly likely.

The revised Missal is perfectly adequate for the purpose of worshipping Almighty God - unless Rome has given us, or has tolerated, a Missal that is not adequate for that purpose: in which case one has wonder what justification there is for a Papacy in the first place That is a weak point in the disparaging of the revised Missal: if it so dreadful, then the Popes must have asleep, dead, or othewise absent of mind to have approved & allowed it for so long. And if they can be so wrong once, they can be as wrong any number of times. The logic of denying the adequacy of the revised Missal, leads to undermining the Papacy & the Church.

Your comment sounds so negative, like throwing on a bucket of cold water to dampen the excitement. Why not a little Faith in what God has planned and his ability to carry it out without worrying over all these details? I see it as a plan unfolding and I have no idea where it is all going, but I think it will be amazing to watch and see. Maybe some miracles will take place. Be more positive, please.

 

[jeanannemarie]

I think a miniscule percentage of the people who have left the church over the last 40 years who have done so did so for reason of the TLM. Most would’ve stayed with the NO even if they didn’t like it. So you’ll see a shift from NO attendees to TLM, but not a huge increase in churchgoers overall.

I’d say many times more people left for other reasons - not liking Humanae Vitae, or church law regarding annulment and divorce, or just not being properly catechised about the importance of weekly Mass attendance and so on. Education is the answer, and I doubt any of those who left for these reasons will come back for the TLM :nope:

Maybe it’s just a rumor, but I have heard that where the Institute of Christ the King starts a Church, attendance grows rapidly, especially among the young.

 

[LilyM]

Maybe it’s just a rumor, but I have heard that where the Institute of Christ the King starts a Church, attendance grows rapidly, especially among the young.

Yeah, but my point was that those attendees would much more likely be coming from NO goers than from people who’d either never been to church before or hadn’t been since pre-Vat 2. So if you think of it in terms of TOTAL massgoers of either form, there’s little or no difference.

Which is fine if all you care about is how many people go to TLM, and you don’t care how many please God and obey the commandments and precepts of the Church by getting their butts into ANY valid Catholic Mass of a Sunday.

 

[srp643]

All in good time. It would be foolish to expect every Parish in England to have the EF by next Sunday. However, the ground work is being established.

Yep. Little by little, the EF will reassume its rightful, glorious position in the Church and the world, and we can expect sainthood production to increase manifold because of it. To borrow a phrase from an archbishop (although not in the way he intended), we are now on an “irreversible path” forward towards the Lord Jesus.

Jube, Domine, benedicere.

 

[cothrige]

Conversely if there is no stable group wanting the TLM then neither the priest nor bishop or cardinal can impose it.

Where did you see this in Summorum Pontificum? I have read it a couple of times, and I don’t recall seeing anything about forbidding a Cardinal or Bishop from using this form for a public Mass if he desires, even without such a group requesting it. Surely such a ground up democratic restriction on the rights of the ordinary, who is the ultimate judge and arbiter of the liturgy in his diocese would have caused massive uproar. I honestly cannot recall having seen anything like this.

 

[thistle]

Where did you see this in Summorum Pontificum? I have read it a couple of times, and I don’t recall seeing anything about forbidding a Cardinal or Bishop from using this form for a public Mass if he desires, even without such a group requesting it. Surely such a ground up democratic restriction on the rights of the ordinary, who is the ultimate judge and arbiter of the liturgy in his diocese would have caused massive uproar. I honestly cannot recall having seen anything like this.

Art. 5. § 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.

 

[cothrige]

Art. 5. § 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.

Am I completely misreading this? I understood this above to be a recognition of what a stable group of people could hope for and seek from their pastors and Bishop if necessary. But, above you said something very different.

Conversely if there is no stable group wanting the TLM then neither the priest nor bishop or cardinal can impose it.

Here you are saying that without a stable group coming forward a Bishop is actually unable to declare that a parish will celebrate an EF Mass each week, as he could have done previously. How can that be so? I really do not think that Summorum Pontificum makes the Bishop answerable to the lay people regarding what form of Mass he will make available on any give date. That would be a democracy where the people would effectively be able to restrain the Bishop or Cardinal in matters of public liturgy. I am obviously misunderstanding something here, but I am just not sure what.

 

[thistle]

Am I completely misreading this? I understood this above to be a recognition of what a stable group of people could hope for and seek from their pastors and Bishop if necessary. But, above you said something very different.

Here you are saying that without a stable group coming forward a Bishop is actually unable to declare that a parish will celebrate an EF Mass each week, as he could have done previously. How can that be so? I really do not think that Summorum Pontificum makes the Bishop answerable to the lay people regarding what form of Mass he will make available on any give date. That would be a democracy where the people would effectively be able to restrain the Bishop or Cardinal in matters of public liturgy. I am obviously misunderstanding something here, but I am just not sure what.

Do a search in the forums. There were extensive debates on the motu proprio after it was issued where this specific subject was discussed. I am certainly not an expert.
Frankly, as we have 10 Masses on Sundays at our church I wouldn’t mind at least one of them being in Latin.

 

[cothrige]

Do a search in the forums. There were extensive debates on the motu proprio after it was issued where this specific subject was discussed. I am certainly not an expert.
Frankly, as we have 10 Masses on Sundays at our church I wouldn’t mind at least one of them being in Latin.

I still think you are misreading this. As I understand it SP implies that without a stable group the bishop does not necessarily have to provide you with an EF Mass. That is not quite same as saying that he cannot, which seems to be what you are saying. He can make the EF Mass available if he so wishes, even without a stable group.