TLM vs. Novus Ordo

[whosebob]

Andreas Hofer:

Regarding a silent vs. audible canon, I think I might slink over to the Eastern Christianity forum and ask about the canon in the other Catholic rites.

JMJ + OBT​

In the Antiochan Orthodox parish that I visit sometimes, the portion of the Divine Liturgy that roughly corresponds to our Canon and Consecration is prayed aloud. Whether that is the case in all Orthodox and Eastern Catholic rites, I don’t know.

 

[QUICUMQUE_VULT]

Andreas Hofer:

Please don’t get his attention on that one! I know there are folks who would favor a vernacular Tridentine Mass, but where would that leave little old me, who happens to be quite devoted to the TLM? Just as I love the rite, I think the use of Latin is quite valuable in it.

And little old me too!
If i cant have my Tridentine in Latin, I would rather do with out!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Andreas Hofer:

Please don’t get his attention on that one! I know there are folks who would favor a vernacular Tridentine Mass, but where would that leave little old me, who happens to be quite devoted to the TLM? Just as I love the rite, I think the use of Latin is quite valuable in it.

But you OUGHT to STILL get that, Andreas.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

QUICUMQUE VULT:

And little old me too!
If i cant have my Tridentine in Latin, I would rather do with out!

Why? Why would you rather do without? I’ve heard all of the arguments and I still don’t see what’s inherently sacred about Latin.

 

[QUICUMQUE_VULT]

JKirkLVNV:

Why? Why would you rather do without? I’ve heard all of the arguments and I still don’t see what’s inherently sacred about Latin.

Dear Brother JKirk,
As you point out, the arguments for and against Latin, whether in the Tridentine or Novus Ordo. Have been amply covered on this forum. And never the twain shall meet.

For me Latin is a sacred language, It was one of the languages written on the placard affixed above the Cross of Our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ. That IMHO would infuse it with A sense of sacredness. (I am also aware of the Hebrew and Greek) It was used in the Churches Liturgical life for centuries. That for me makes it Sacred, And the profound sense of Mystery it imparts to the Faithful during the Mass.

This is what makes Latin Sacred for me.

In Caritatae non Ficta!

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I am going to resurrect something from early in the thread:

It was the need for a church of the people and not an elite (because they always had their solemn Masses) to appear to be something other than a magical means of turning wafers into Jesus that motivated the move to a new order. It was the need to replace the subtle irreverance and yes, abuse, of the Traditional Latin rite that prompted reform. In identifying the older rite with something beautiful and transcendent as opposed to what we have now, you are overlooking the fact that both rites had basically the same problem, but for different reasons. On top of that, in the US if not in Europe, there was little attention paid to aesthetics in the older rite. Anyone with any sense that aesthetics are important in worship because they honor God would have cringed as much in any TLM service of the day as they do today, though perhaps for different reasons. And this would have been true even in many grand churches and cathedrals.

I agree with this. There was a need for a RENEWAL of the Mass, but I do not see a need for a change of rite. The TLM as it is celebrated in indult communities to-day I see as fulfilling (in a much more appropriate manner) the mandatum of Vatican II on the Mass than a new rite of Mass that is a very long series of options, in it’s essence.

That is why I laugh when people argue that the Old Mass was nothing like it is celebrated to-day in indult communities, as if we will be horrified that we do not exactly match the past! We are not stuck in the 1950’s, but instead we have rejuvenated the Traditional Rite of Mass, and have come to appreciate the true value of it (which those lucky enough to be born into it did not).

I might also add that “MORE Catholic than the Pope” is not always that hard to be. Cast a glance back at the Renaissance era Popes [St. Pius V excluded]. If they were the highest standard of Catholicism, then the Church was really not well off. But, as far as current Popes go, I would tend to agree that being more Catholic than they are/were is pretty hard, nigh impossible.

-SPXII

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

QUICUMQUE VULT:

For me Latin is a sacred language, It was one of the languages written on the placard affixed above the Cross of Our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

So you have seen this placard?

The truth is, we do not even know if there was a placard nor what language was written on it or what was written on it.

 

[QUICUMQUE_VULT]

ByzCath:

So you have seen this placard?

The truth is, we do not even know if there was a placard nor what language was written on it or what was written on it.

I dont have to see It. I believe the Gospel according to St. John.
Where He tells us that Pontius Pilate caused A placard to be affixed above the Cross saying “Jesus of nazareth the king of the Jews” Written in Hebrew greek and Latin.

Maybe thats what comes with being A “Tridentine” Catholic convert. Believing the Gospel, and accepting some things by Faith.

Has the Church “officially” instructed us not to believe the Gospels? If this is so please let us know.
BTW my post was for the Brother in Las Vegas, merely stating why I, Me , Mois, think that Latin Is A sacred language.

---

I pity the Fool!
Mr.“T”

 

[gelsbern]

This site appears to be in union with Rome. They have a side by side comparison of the Dominican Rite, the TLM and The Novus Ordo.

execulink.com/~dtribe/blog/Missals_Comparison2.html

 

[AJV]

arch_angelorum:

so is there any way to get the attention of Pope Benedict and tell him that many ppl think that the Tridentine VERNACULAR should be used? Perhaps he has not considered this as an option?

Not to be sarcastic or anything but how many people? If I probably went up to 90% of the people in my parish ( conservative estimate) and asked them: Do you want the Latin mass/ Tridentine Mass to be restored in the vernacular, they would look at me as if I had gone loco!

 

[gelsbern]

Actually if that was offered as a comprimise, I bet a lot of people would go for it.

The High Anglicans at one time (don’t know if they still do) and many of the the Old Catholics in english speaking countries do indeed use the Tridentine Rite in english, in other countries the Old Catholics use the vernacular.

If people are being honest, it appears their biggest concern is about the use of latin, so if they were to offer the TLM in english one would have to conclude that there would be much less resistance.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

palmas85:

As to songs like Salve Regina, Ave Maria etc, they are clearly **NOT **proper for ecumenical gatherings and might offend the stray protestant that wanders in. I have stated repeatedly in this forum and will tell anyone who cares to listen,: I don’t have any problem with the Pauline Mass at all…
,
BUT it was clearly designed to minimize certain aspects of Catholicism that were offensive to non-Catholics. Much the same as renovating the churches to better reflect the oneness of the congregation and God, taking priestly duties and assigning them to the laity, heck, moving the Priest away from the altar completely except during the consecration to better reflect that there was no real difference between the Priest and the laity, the removal or re-positioning of statures etc, even the Tabernacle itself, were all clearly bows to the ecumenical spirit so pervasive at the time.

How many times do we ALL have to say this? The point of the change was to appease Protestants, which of course it didn’t! Why didn’t they just translate the Mass into the vernacular? Same reason, not Protestant enough.

Biggest joke of the whole thing: How many of the Catholics who “now understand what’s going on” REALLY understand? Do people still genuflect to nothing on entering the pews?Does your cantor vary the Agnus Dei to put some zing into what can be very repetitious if there are many EMs getting their chalices and dishes? Do you shake your head in disbelief? Aha! If not, neither you nor they understand after forty miserable years of the vernacular.

Anna

 

[Fidei_Defensor]

ByzCath:

So you have seen this placard?

The truth is, we do not even know if there was a placard nor what language was written on it or what was written on it.

Do you dispute Sacred Scripture?

John 19:19-20
Pilate also had an inscription written and put on the cross. It read, “Jesus the Nazorean, the King of the Jews.” Now many of the Jews read this inscription, because the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek.

 

[arch_angelorum]

Andreas, I too am all for the TLM with the LATIN. But I am also for the vernacular Traditional Mass for those who wish to keep the ancient liturgical traditions of the church but still fully understand what is going on in their language.

When I said how could we petition the pope to do this, I was also speaking about the high altars, the staues, the incense, the traditional vestments of all clergy and religious (rather than "rainbow vestments for example), the altar boys, the altar rails…the whole package.

If you think the TLM will come back in full force any time soon, that is not being realistic. This will take time to heal. Unfortunatly, the damage occured in a very short time, but it always takes longer to heal.

 

[oldfogey]

arch_angelorum:

Andreas, I too am all for the TLM with the LATIN. But I am also for the vernacular Traditional Mass for those who wish to keep the ancient liturgical traditions of the church but still fully understand what is going on in their language.

When I said how could we petition the pope to do this, I was also speaking about the high altars, the staues, the incense, the traditional vestments of all clergy and religious (rather than "rainbow vestments for example), the altar boys, the altar rails…the whole package.

If you think the TLM will come back in full force any time soon, that is not being realistic. This will take time to heal. Unfortunatly, the damage occured in a very short time, but it always takes longer to heal.

IMHO, I don’t think it will take that long. I think Traditional parishes with all the aspects of the Tridentine Rite at their disposal will flourish beyond anyone’s imaginings quickly. I have many friends, raising families and trying to educate their children Catholic who are chafing at being fed half a loaf.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

QUICUMQUE VULT:

I dont have to see It. I believe the Gospel according to St. John.
Where He tells us that Pontius Pilate caused A placard to be affixed above the Cross saying “Jesus of nazareth the king of the Jews” Written in Hebrew greek and Latin.

Maybe thats what comes with being A “Tridentine” Catholic convert. Believing the Gospel, and accepting some things by Faith.

Has the Church “officially” instructed us not to believe the Gospels? If this is so please let us know.
BTW my post was for the Brother in Las Vegas, merely stating why I, Me , Mois, think that Latin Is A sacred language.

No, but Scripture is not always literal in its meaning nor is it always true in a historical sort of way.

But, granted it does say what you say it does, you seem to be going one step futher saying that becuase this placard was written in Latin (as well as Greek and Hebrew) that this makes Latin a sacred language. The Scriptures say no such thing. If we are to take the stand you do then Greek and Hebrew must also be viewed as sacred languages.

There is nothing sacred about languages in general, only in their use.

I could understand the argument that Hebrew and Greek are sacred, after all that is what the first Scriptures were written in. They had to be translated into Latin. So if the Scriptures are the Word of God, as we believe, then He chose to speak to us in Hebrew and Greek. Now why did he do that? Because it was the vernacular languages at the time.

This over emphasis on Latin being a “sacred” language borders on superstition at times. Latin is not a magical language. God created all the Languages and can use them all for His Glory.

IMHO it is more important that the Liturgies are done in a language the people speak and understand rather than some language they do not understand but following along in a book that has the English next to it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Anna Elizabeth:

How many times do we ALL have to say this? The point of the change was to appease Protestants, which of course it didn’t! Why didn’t they just translate the Mass into the vernacular? Same reason, not Protestant enough.

This is just nonsense.

The Mass was not changed to “appease Protestants”. You have been spending too much time with those conspiracy theorists out there. Protestants had nothing to do with the current Mass other than modifying their “rites” to look more like it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Fidei Defensor:

Do you dispute Sacred Scripture?

John 19:19-20
Pilate also had an inscription written and put on the cross. It read, “Jesus the Nazorean, the King of the Jews.” Now many of the Jews read this inscription, because the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek.

No, as I said above but, again, not everything in the Scriptures can be taken literally nor are they to be taken as Historical fact in every case. I do not doubt that this could be but I do ask why is this only in the Gospel of St John and not in the other three?

Also, as I say above, if this is the defense of why Latin is sacred then why not push Greek and Hebrew as sacred too? After all Scripture was written in Hebrew and Greek originally and only later (a significant time later) was it translated into Latin in the West, the East still uses the Septuagint. Latin is only the liturgical language of the Roman Church. Let us not forget that there are (about) 22 other Catholic Churches that have other languages as their liturgical languages.

 

[AJV]

ByzCath:

No, as I said above but, again, not everything in the Scriptures can be taken literally nor are they to be taken as Historical fact in every case. I do not doubt that this could be but I do ask why is this only in the Gospel of St John and not in the other three?

Why not just chuck out half of the Gospel of St. John because what’s recorded there isn’t in the other Gospels?

And anyway how would you interpret it figuratively or otherwise interpret it?

 

[QUICUMQUE_VULT]

ByzCath:

No, but Scripture is not always literal in its meaning nor is it always true in a historical sort of way.

But, granted it does say what you say it does, you seem to be going one step futher saying that becuase this placard was written in Latin (as well as Greek and Hebrew) that this makes Latin a sacred language. The Scriptures say no such thing. If we are to take the stand you do then Greek and Hebrew must also be viewed as sacred languages.

There is nothing sacred about languages in general, only in their use.

I could understand the argument that Hebrew and Greek are sacred, after all that is what the first Scriptures were written in. They had to be translated into Latin. So if the Scriptures are the Word of God, as we believe, then He chose to speak to us in Hebrew and Greek. Now why did he do that? Because it was the vernacular languages at the time.

This over emphasis on Latin being a “sacred” language borders on superstition at times. Latin is not a magical language. God created all the Languages and can use them all for His Glory.

IMHO it is more important that the Liturgies are done in a language the people speak and understand rather than some language they do not understand but following along in a book that has the English next to it.

Well, that seems like A literal passage in scripture to me. How would you interpret that passage? And why is it not true in A historical sort of way? Maybe you think St. John wrote that just to make the story more interesting?

Or maybe you take issue with it just for the sake of argument,(which I suspect) Have you ever read the Holy Gospel? You seem surprised that the passage was in there.

And you miss my point entirely, which is this, Latin is sacred for ME. And that is one of the (many) reasons. BTW I also consider Hebrew and Greek sacred also. nothing superstitious about that at all.