TLM vs. Novus Ordo

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AJV said:
:confused: Why not just chuck out half of the Gospel of St. John because what’s recorded there isn’t in the other Gospels?

And anyway how would you interpret it figuratively or otherwise interpret it?

Exactly! How could you interpret it any other way?
 
A piece of the Titulus Crucis, is preserved in Rome, at the Church of Santa Croce.

The interesting thing is the Latin is written backwards, from right to left. As if A Jewish scribe wrote the Latin as he would the Hebrew.
 
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arch_angelorum:
Andreas, I too am all for the TLM with the LATIN. But I am also for the vernacular Traditional Mass for those who wish to keep the ancient liturgical traditions of the church but still fully understand what is going on in their language./QUOTE]

That’s the irony: They still don’t “fully understand what is going on.” Those who did not understand in Latin have just exchanged not understanding in Latin for not understanding in English!

If the changers had really been concerned with comprehension, we would have had 40 years of remedial catechesis. Instead, they dropped it altogether!!

Read the history of the Council.

Anna
 
here did taking communion in the hand come from?

More shockingly, when did “Eucharistic Ministers” appear? I refuse to take communion from anyone but a priest/bishop… (unless there was a really really urgent situation where I would accept it from a nun,monk, deacon, and quite less willingly from a lay person).

Where did turning the altar to face the people come from?

I know many bishops were convinced that these things occured in the early centuries, and maybe such things did happen, but then again remember that the early centuries of Christianity, the church was a catacombs church in all of the Mediterannean and Middle East, and whatever they could get was probably good enough again because those times were very extreme and dangerous to BE a Christian. But as the church progressed through history, all Rites had rules and written liturgical prayers codified and written up for the sake of uniformity and proper execution. Going back to ancient catacomb practices which were done out of necessity or lack of uniformity is not the way (IMHO) to go for the church today. The church should’ve continued its slow yet sure liturgical progression from 1962.
 
I went to a TLM Mass for the first time today. (I converted from Anglicanism 18 years ago today.) I would like to say that it was lovely or reverent, but those words do not do it justice. Perhaps “iconic” is the right word in that I recall thinking today, “Oh. So this is what heaven will be like.” 🙂 I noticed several things about it. First of all, I didn’t find that the priest had his back to me so much as he was facing the Lord. Because of this, my focus was never on the priest (except for maybe the homily), but my focus was on what he was focusing on, and that was the Lord. Secondly, I was able to understand what it means when we say that the priest acts *in persona Christi. *While he was praying at the altar, I had the image of Moses in the Holy of Holies communicating to Yahweh for the Israelites, and that only led me to see Jesus interceding and communicating with the Father in heaven for those of us on earth…Jesus presenting our petitions to the Father as our great High Priest. That was what the priest was doing. He was offering prayers to the Lord on behalf of the community gathered there. Sure, you can see this in the Pauline Mass done in the vernacular, but it was more effective in the TLM because much of the prayers were done in such a way that they were inaudible, yet I knew that the priest was offering prayers for me and all those gathered. Third, the chanting was just ethereal. It did not distract me and draw attention to itself, but helped to lift my thoughts to Christ. Fourth, I thought that the distribution of Holy Communion by kneeling at the altar rail would take forever, but it didn’t. It was very organized in a haphazard kind of way, if that makes sense. And finally, I probably most appreciated that there was lots of sacred silence there. The Pauline Mass could use more of it. All in all, I will not abandon my parish for this Mass in New Orleans 30 miles from me, but if the universal indult is granted and the TLM is offered in my parish, I will attend.

Oh, one other thing. About Latin as a sacred language. I agree that what makes language sacred is its use. Where I find knowing the Mass in Latin is beneficial is that if all Masses were done in Latin, then no matter whether I went to Mass in New Orleans or in Timbuktu, I would be familiar with what was going on.
 
QUICUMQUE VULT:
For me Latin is a sacred language, It was one of the languages written on the placard affixed above the Cross of Our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ. That IMHO would infuse it with A sense of sacredness. (I am also aware of the Hebrew and Greek) It was used in the Churches Liturgical life for centuries. That for me makes it Sacred, And the profound sense of Mystery it imparts to the Faithful during the Mass.

This is what makes Latin Sacred for me.
I’ve been pondering this and how to respond. First, I can see how Latin would be sacred for you, Quicumque Vult. When my grandfather, who only has a high school diploma, prays, he addresses God with “thee” and “thy” and “thine,” so I see also the point of sacral language. I just don’t happen to believe that Latin is sacred in and of itself, nor made sacred by the task for which it is used. It is certainly IMPORTANT and it would be a very wrong if we discontinued it’s use entirely (our theologians and biblical scholars, lay and clerical, study Hebrew and Greek for the purpose of understanding the Bible and Latin has played far too large a role in the history and development of the Church and Her thought to be dismissed). I think, however, that it is important, though not absolutely essential, for the Mass to be in the language understood by the congregation. Your example of the Holy Titulus is apt.

Why did Pilate put that sign there? Presumably to notify the passersby as to why Our Lord was crucified (I suppose it was a common practice, to describe the crime or indictment of the person being punished, though I don’t know). In order for them to understand, he published it in the three languages he knew the majority of people would understand: Hebrew (according to Catholic Encylopedia, really a form of Aramaic derived from Hebrew at this point), Greek (Koine Greek, the language of trade), and Latin (the language of the masters of the Empire). He clearly wanted anyone who saw the sign, who saw the Savior on the Cross, to* understand, *to *comprehend *what was done or why (as an aside, I wonder if Pilate was not frankly terrified of Jesus, if he had not an inkling of Who stood before Him, and though he capitulated to the Jewish leadership in consenting to crucify Jesus, he stubbornly refused to write “He said he was the King of the Jews” because of that nagging little inkling). If he’d written it in Sanskrit or Mandarin or Tagalog, no one would have understood what was posted there at all.

And that’s what brings me to part of my point: language is meant to be understood. Language (and the words/sounds/spellings that make language) is a symbolic. Words are symbols. The linguistic symbol for a four legged creature with fur and whiskers and a long tail, a creature who is fastidious and carefully licks its fur clean, who makes a sound that is, approximately, “meow,” is, in English, “cat.” In Spanish, it’s “gato.” In Latin, it’s “felix.” In Arabic, it’s “qit.” In Basque, it’s “katu,” and in Bengali, it’s “biral.”
None of those words encompass “cat” in its ontological fullness (ie, none of them describe “catness”), but each of them conveys to the native who says the word and the native who hears the word a certain meaning, ie, his or her mind flashes on “cat.” This is the best way I can go about describing the purely symbolic nature of language. Words are just symbols intended to convey (or carry) meaning. If the words aren’t understood, there is no meaning, no comprehension.

This, to me at least, is why it’s particularly important that the Mass be offered in the vernacular: so it can be comprehended, so that meaning can be conveyed. Now there are those who think that it doesn’t and shouldn’t matter that we be able to understand it. After all, it’s addressed to God, isn’t it?

Well, consider this. Who is the Mass for, precisely? Is it for God? Certainly it is our worship of God. But does HE need the Mass? It seems to me that the Church teaches that God is perfect, absolutely perfect in and of Himself, needing nothing to complete or perfect Him. It seems to me that the Mass is like the Sabbath. Jesus stated categorically that the Sabbath was made for man and NOT man for the Sabbath. Mass, in my humble opinion, would seem to have been PROVIDED by God FOR us, for the propitiation of our sins, to satisfy, by the extension into time from eternity, the Sacrifice of Calvary, making It present for us and, by our rightly rec. communions, causing Its salvific effects to take root in our lives (if we truly allow them to do so). If, then, the Mass is not for God, but for us, then who needs to understand it? This is, for me, particularly noticeable in the readings, offered the first time in Latin, then in the local language, in the TLM. For whom do we read the scriptures? God or the congregation? With respect, God wrote them and I seriously doubt that He needs to be reminded of what they say. (continued latter)
 
Anna Elizabeth,

Your reasoning is very refreshing. There are so many fuzzy thinkers out there that your clear responses to these topics are great.

After 40 years, its no wonder that so many don’t get it. They’ve never been exposed to TLM or raised with the Baltimore Catechism.
 
Anna Elizabeth:
If the changers had really been concerned with comprehension, we would have had 40 years of remedial catechesis. Instead, they dropped it altogether!!

Read the history of the Council.

Anna
Pity meaningful catechesis was dropped altogether at that time, too.
 
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ByzCath:
Originally Posted by Anna Elizabeth
How many times do we ALL have to say this? The point of the change was to appease Protestants, which of course it didn’t! Why didn’t they just translate the Mass into the vernacular? Same reason, not Protestant enough.
This is just nonsense.

The Mass was not changed to “appease Protestants”. You have been spending too much time with those conspiracy theorists out there. Protestants had nothing to do with the current Mass other than modifying their “rites” to look more like it.
In the first paragraph of Sacrosanctum Concilium, we read
  1. This Sacred Council has several aims in view:
    it desires to impart an ever increasing vigor to the Christian life of the faithful;
    to adapt more suitably to the needs of our own times those institutions which are subject to change;
    to foster whatever can promote union among all who believe in Christ;
    to strengthen whatever can help to call the whole of mankind into the household of the Church.
    The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the Liturgy.
So like it or not, part of the task undertaken by the reformers was to change the liturgy to promote union with Protestants. Or are you saying the Concilium ignored this instruction from the SVC?
 
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mrdrifter:
In the first paragraph of Sacrosanctum Concilium, we read

So like it or not, part of the task undertaken by the reformers was to change the liturgy to promote union with Protestants. Or are you saying the Concilium ignored this instruction from the SVC?
“Promote union (SC)” is decidedly different from “appease Protestants (Anna Elizabeth)” We didn’t sacrifice anything that is essesntially Catholic in the reform of the liturgy in order to appease Protestants. People who believe so have confused “tradition” with “Tradition.”
 
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Trident59:
Anna Elizabeth,
After 40 years, its no wonder that so many don’t get it. They’ve never been exposed to TLM or raised with the Baltimore Catechism.
Exactly. And as more Catholics are exposed they will continue to vote with their feet and attend TLM masses wherever they can. Indult masses are packed where I live, why aren’t there more? After speaking with an FSSP priest, I learned that one problem is supply and demand (not enough priests), but as the trend continues for new seminarians to prefer the TLM, that will eventually resolve.
 
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dljl:
Exactly. And as more Catholics are exposed they will continue to vote with their feet and attend TLM masses wherever they can. Indult masses are packed where I live, why aren’t there more? After speaking with an FSSP priest, I learned that one problem is supply and demand (not enough priests), but as the trend continues for new seminarians to prefer the TLM, that will eventually resolve.
I doubt the vernacular Pauline Rite will ever die out. It is loved and treasured by many.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
“Promote union (SC)” is decidedly different from “appease Protestants (Anna Elizabeth)” We didn’t sacrifice anything that is essesntially Catholic in the reform of the liturgy in order to appease Protestants. People who believe so have confused “tradition” with “Tradition.”

We didn’t? Novel thought. So you are saying that we have given up nothing essentially Catholic since Vatican II?
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I doubt the vernacular Pauline Rite will ever die out. It is loved and treasured by many.
I agree in part, but I think that what we know as the Pauline Rite now is nowhere near what it was ever intended to be and is the result of years of experimentation and many blatantly ignoring of the GIRM. I don’t think in their wildest dreams did the reformers expect that the entire mass would be said in the vernacular, especially when Vatican II expressly stated that the use of Latin wa to be preserved within the Rite.
 
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palmas85:
I agree in part, but I think that what we know as the Pauline Rite now is nowhere near what it was ever intended to be and is the result of years of experimentation and many blatantly ignoring of the GIRM. I don’t think in their wildest dreams did the reformers expect that the entire mass would be said in the vernacular, especially when Vatican II expressly stated that the use of Latin wa to be preserved within the Rite.
Sacrosanctum Concilium:
    1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
  1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.
I agree, I haven’t been able to understand how the words “preserved” and “given pride of place” have been interpreted as “abrogated” and “never used”.
 
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palmas85:
I agree in part, but I think that what we know as the Pauline Rite now is nowhere near what it was ever intended to be and is the result of years of experimentation and many blatantly ignoring of the GIRM. I don’t think in their wildest dreams did the reformers expect that the entire mass would be said in the vernacular, especially when Vatican II expressly stated that the use of Latin wa to be preserved within the Rite.
But do you genuinely think that the Holy Father is going to end the use of the vernacular in the Mass NOW (regardless of what the “reformers” imagined)? What part will be in Latin and what part will be in the vernacular? Will we start the Latin with the Sursum Corda? Will it be Latin up until after the Consecration of the Most Sacred Body and in the vernacular from the Consecration of the Most Precious Blood? I doubt it and I think you do, too! That would be REALLY awkward! Do you think that the majority of people who prefer the vernacular Mass will be content to have ONLY the readings in the venacular and the rest in Latin (perhaps that’s what the "reformers intended)? I really kind of doubt that. Again, I think we may see the “sung” parts in Latin, maybe the Our Father (Pater Noster). Why? Because I think the vast and silent majority, those sometimes derisively refered to as “potatoes,” will not be pleased and will make it known AND I doubt the Holy Father will want that kind of upheaval in the Church again. That’s why I said that he wouldn’t heal one schism by initiating another. I also don’t think the bishops want that.
 
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palmas85:
We didn’t? Novel thought. So you are saying that we have given up nothing essentially Catholic since Vatican II?
We’ve given up nothing essential and what is essential IS Catholic!
 
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