TLM'ers - Why do you go?

[Lux_et_veritas]

I just have to ask this question and the thread is not for those who attend Novus Ordo Masses. Rather the target is people who regularly or periodically attend a TLM. I am going to ask moderators to help keep this thread in that light, lest it become another runaway TLM vs. Novus Ordo war thread. I simply want to use it to hear from people why they attend the TLM.

To all TLM’ers who respond, please note that I am asking any moderator watching to strip this thread of any obvious attacks on the Novus Ordo for things which are sanctioned by the Holy See, or are in the GIRM. Be sure to speak in terms of preferences in this regard because it is also ok to not like some things for which flexibility is given directly or indirectly.

For the record, I do not attend a TLM but am genuinely interested in knowing how many in this forum attend and why you attend.

Once again, anyone wanting to take undiplomatic or uncharitable jabs at the N.O. should start their own thread. I don’t want it here, any more than I want people who don’t go to TLM’s hijacking the thread to address things said.

It is ok to talk in terms of specific things. But just reflect a little and be sure to provide specifics. Here are some starting thoughts and a few questions at the bottom.

Music?

Homily?

Silence?

Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area?

Raised in TLM and still gravitate that way?

Or other?

What about the culture within your TLM communities? Are they generally faithful to all doctrines or are they selective? Is this discussed among parishioners?

Were you born and raise pre or post vatican 2?

Do you see young people attending and if so, what is the rough mix (like 80% senior 20% youthful, or include middle age - rough percentages).?

 

[Brendan]

I periodically take my family to St. Josaphat’s for the TLM.

Primarily because I want my children to experience the depth and breadth of the Catholic tradition and that I take seriously the command of Vatican II that the faithful should be able to recite the common prayers and Mass responses in Latin (Sacrosanctum Concilium #54).

I likewise take them, very occasionally, to a Byzantine parish so that they can experience the Eastern Liturgy, (one day I’ll make it to St. James in Troy to show them the Chaldean Liturgy).

 

[mosher]

Unfortunatelly the Tridentine Liturgy here in NM is at times celebrated poorly in that the rubrics are not followed exactly so in a sense for me it is not a matter of escaping liturgical abuse. Frankly all the parishes in the Archdiocese have some form of liturgical abuse or another so that it something I have come to learn to live with untill it is fixed.

The reason I go is because I find that in the Tridentine Mass I can fulfill my obligation to participate fully in the mass more so than in the Novus Ordo. While the Novus Ordo has engines that are built to help foster your active participation such as a lot of responses and a vocalized canon I actually find that these hinder true participation in the Patristic forms that are ment to be expressed in the Liturgy. This is funny because the reform of the Liturgy was undertaken for this very purpose - to help express the Patristic forms more clearly. It is as I tell people frequently. To really understand what is going on in the Novus Ordo you have to be a liturgy scholar but in the Tridentine Mass, if you dispose yourself to being receptive instead of active then the Liturgy can permeate you - it wraps itself around you and lifts you up to the heavenly realities that it is trying to express and in this action it becomes transformative.

 

[LatinCat]

I occasionaly attend The TLM here in my diocese. Unfortunately, it is deficient in many ways, including a choir not qualified to provide the music for such a mass, and a priest, God bless his heart, who, although a good priest, does not follow the missal as one should.
Another problem that I find at our TLM is the age group of the people who attenend this mass. Most are senior citizens, few are even middle aged. I am in my twenties and I only know of one other person who attends the TLM.
My reasons for attending the TLM occasionally: an appreciation for the the traditions of the Church, the reverence illustrated by the priest and congregation, the sense of the mystery of the Divine Liturgy, and I LOVE latin. I think its the coolest language ever. That being said, I have no problem with the Novus Ordo when it is celbrated properly. It can be every bit as reverant and beautiful.

 

[arieh0310]

I have gone to a TLM once because I wanted to experience Latin, chant, smells & bells, etc. But gee, you can have all these in a NO mass too. Once I found a parish that celebrated a NO mass in a traditional way I felt no need to go back to the TLM parish, as a matter of fact, I prefer the NO mass when done right.

 

[SnorterLuster]

Lux_et_veritas:

Music? **Not important to me. A low mass is as worshipful as a high mass. **

Homily? Style is unimportant. Content is important. I don’t expect all priests to be gifted speakers, but I do expect all priests to instuct me on how to live a Catholic life and achieve salvation.

Silence? My personal preference is a quiet Mass that I can pray along with the priest and people. Most in my parish closely follow the Mass in their missals, as do I. We pray the entire Mass with uninteruppted concentration.

Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area? I have never found one in my area, but that is not to say there are none. Regardless, as long as the TLM is available, I will go to Mass there.

Raised in TLM and still gravitate that way? I was raised pre-Vatican II and as indicated above have never lost my love for the Latin Mass.

Or other? I felt at the time, and still feel that we Catholics have turned the emphasis of the Mass away from worship to a more community focus. While community is important, the TLM, by its focus, is directed only toward worship. Again, just in my opinion, that is the whole purpose of the Mass. God did not command us to keep holy anything but His day.

What about the culture within your TLM communities? Are they generally faithful to all doctrines or are they selective? Is this discussed among parishioners? My experience has mostly been very positive. The parishioners seem very orthodox and faithful to the Church. From my conversations, it is apparent that some were in independent chapels and were overjoyed to be able to return to the Church at the indult Mass. From the number of children in the families, it is certain they are faithful to the teachings on birth control.

Were you born and raise pre or post vatican 2? Teenager during Vatican II.

Do you see young people attending and if so, what is the rough mix (like 80% senior 20% youthful, or include middle age - rough percentages).? **I am 57 and I would guess that fewer than 10% are my age or older. For those younger, the people that I would call out of child bearing ages (40-55) account for 30-40%. They tend to have older children who attend Mass with their parents. The balance are the 20-30 year olds who are married and starting or still working on their families. **

For myself, the TLM fills a void every Sunday. Maybe it’s because I find a unity that ties me to not only to the people at mass, but it ties me to the Trinity and to the Church of the past. I can’t explain it, but at the Concecration I feel something inside of me, deep inside that is a feeling I never get at any other time. It is also a feeling that I never got at a N.O. Mass. It is probably something in my psychology, but I never left a N.O. Mass feeling satisfied. Like many Catholics, I went to Mass and rushed out to beat the traffic out of the parking lot. Now, at my TLM parish we linger, talk with our neighbors, and even go over to the parish hall and sit-in on the catechism classes for the teenagers.

When I am at the TLM mass, I am totally immersed. I have no conception of time, never look at my watch or feel the need to. Right now, I could not tell you how long Mass lasts. I have thought sometimes that I would remember to look at the time when I left Mass, but I have never remembered to check.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

For all of you willing, can you please state either your age, generation, or whether you are a pre or post vatican 2 baby.

 

[arieh0310]

Lux_et_veritas:

For all of you willing, can you please state either your age, generation, or whether you are a pre or post vatican 2 baby.

28 years-old, entering the Church this Easter after 1 year of studying my way in (fighting tooth and nail the whole way).

 

[catcher5]

I have been attending the TLM in Detroit for about a year. I was born during Vatican II and was raised with the N.O. Mass. When I was young, the Masses seemed to be fairly orthodox. But as the years went by, I saw many changes that I did not really like, but accepted. I thought all Masses were the same and did not realize that some parishes were more orthodox than others. Then I read about the TLM in the paper and went to a Mass and loved it. Specifically, I like that there are no female altar servers, communion on the tongue and kneeling, no EMHC, no hand-holding, no sign of peace among the people, no mandatory “greet your neighbor” before Mass. The Mass doesn’t seem so feminized as in my old parish. Also, at least at St. Josaphat, the church itself is utilized the way it was intended. The high altar is always used, the homily comes from the pulpit, the original communion rail is used, etc. I realize that I could probably find these things at orthodox N.O. parishes also, but this just happened to be the orthodox Mass that I happened to find.
There is a good mix of ages at St. Josaphat. There are some seniors, many middle-aged, and it seems like the biggest group is young children.

 

[mosher]

26 - and a former seminarian (which is where I was first introduced to the Tridentine Mass) but received the sacraments and was raised in a very liberal parish otherwise.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

I’m a post-Vat II baby. A man never divulges his age.

I attend the traditional Rite for many reasons. Chief among them is the blessed silence. Nothing helps me to commune with my God better than silence. How can we ever hear that still, small voice if we are being constantly bombarded by noise? I also prefer altar boys, no hand-holding and the social hour be confined to the parish hall after Mass.

There are at least two “traditional” NO Masses within driving distance of my home. I occasionally attend daily Mass at one or the other.

I’ve never felt more welcome and at home in any parish than I do in my traditional Rite parish. These are good people. From my first visit here, people were so kind and helpful.

The culture at my parish is fiercely loyal to the Church. Yes, there are some wing nuts, but we all know who they are and take them with a grain of salt. A few weeks ago, we had a visiting traditionalist priest who quoted from Vatican II, in a positive way. I think most of us get it and don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The problem with some Traditionalists is, they want a static Church, frozen in time in 1958 or 1962 or whatever their ideal Golden Age is. Of course, only dead bodies cease to grow. I have it on good authority that the gates of hell will never prevail against our Church. Therefore, the Mystical Body cannot grind to a halt no matter what the reason or she will die.

 

[palmas85]

After serving my time so to speak, I am once again allowed to post.

Well lets see, over 50, hows that? Pre Vatican II taught and catechized. Suffered through the past forty years and the endless waves of modernization, correct thinking, liberation theology, freedom movements, loss of vocations, ecumenical dialogues that always seemed to end with the Holy Mother Church giving in a little more each time, experimentation ad nauseum, poorly written folk songs during Mass, communion in the hand and lest I forget my good friends the Sisters of the Most Precious Blood :bigyikes: as well as everything else that came along in that time.

I attend both Novus Ordo and Traditional Mass regularly, but even though I try, and believe me, I’ve tried for years, the Novus Ordo Mass just doesn’t do it. It is too bland, too lacking in reverence and respect too people oriented and frankly, just too Lutheran in composition and style. Sorry, but the truth is the truth. Go to a Lutheran service one day and you will see what I mean.

I have never questioned the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass, well some of the individual masses yes, and have always remained loyal to the Pope and the Magestirum. But as far as I am concerned, the Traditional Latin Mass is the only way to go.

 

[GWS]

I am in the process of “switching over” to the Traditional Latin rite as I type this. I was born in 1969, never knew the TLM growing up and did not “discover” this magnificent liturgy until just over four months ago. Here are my thoughts:

MUSIC: The solemn high Mass makes use of music that is appropriate for a sacrifice. The lion’s share of music I have heard at N. O. masses (outside of solemn liturgies) does not compare.

HOMILY: Orthoxy is the staple of all homilies I have ever heard in this diocese, N. O. or TLM. However, the TLM homilies I have heard seem to say more with fewer words. The priest doesn’t seem to spend a lot of time “composing sermons” as it were, just preaching good solid doctrine. Also, no jokes or amusing anecdotes in the TLM, either – these would rather ruin the sacrificial spirit that the music, rituals and incense have established.

SILENCE: in the low Mass adds to reverence in a big way. I could write paragraphs on this point alone.

LACK OF TRADITIONALLY CELEBRATED NOVUS ORDOs IN YOUR AREA? If you mean N.O.'s in Latin, there’s none that I am aware of around here.

RAISED IN TLM AND STILL GRAVITATE THAT WAY? Nope. Never even knew what a TLM was until last September.

As a TLM “newbie”, I don’t have sufficient information to answer the other questions yet.

I have always been told by orthodox priests celebrating the N. O. that the Mass is a sacrifice. I’ve never questioned this, however the liturgy of the TLM supports this idea quite vividly, and I don’t need to be told it is a real sacrifice.

mosher correctly noted above how the Traditional liturgy permeates you and wraps itself around you, provided you are adequately disposed to it. I have found this in both the low Mass and (especially) the solemn high Mass.

SnorterLuster made some nice comments about the consecration in the TLM that I concur with. Again, this holds true for me in both the low Mass and the solemn high Mass.

I also like the high altar and the kneeling (especially when receiving the Eucharist). It puts the Tabernacle in its proper place and us “in ours” as it were. Confession right before Mass is a stroke of genius! Minor preferences include no greeting of peace or prayers of the faithful.

IMO, the TLM is not only the way to go, it may very well be “the way forward” for the Church as a whole.

 

[jms]

I am in my late 40’s, grew up in a Bible-thumping Evangelical Protestant church and converted to Catholicism as part of the wedding package in the mid-70’s.

My husband and I just formally switched over to the TLM about a month ago after having attended about 4 or 5 times over the previous six months. Initially I wanted to go out of curiosity - the indult parish has been around in our diocese for 5 years and runs an add every week in the diocesan newspaper. Although it was very foreign to me the first time we went and I had quite a time trying to follow along in the booklets, there was something about it that made me want to go back to experience it again.

Why do I like it?
It takes me away from this world and gives me a foretaste of what heaven will be like. The mass typically lasts about an hour and a quarter to an hour and a half, and I’m never glancing at my watch, it’s like space and time almost cease to exist.

We attend a High Mass and the choir is wonderful. The homilies are often challenging and not full of jokes and little anecdotes that leave you scratching your head wondering how they relate to the readings of the day.

How convenient having confession before mass and occasionally during mass!

I love the whole symbology (maybe not the right word, but it describes how I feel) of the priest celebrating ad orientam - to me it reinforces that he is there to shepherd and guide us. All the altar boys are very reverent and serious in carrying out their duties. And I like it that they are altar boys!

The parish we have joined has a broad spectrum of ages, from young singles in their 20’s, to families with children of all ages, right on up to seniors.

I still attend some of the daily masses at our previous NO parish and am involved in a few different groups and activities still. Our diocese is also considered quite conservative, so there aren’t as many liturgical abuses in the parishes around here as perhaps there are in others.

The bottom line for me is that at the end of this life I want to make sure I’m going to end up in Heaven and for me, I feel I stand a much better chance by attending the TLM. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/ani_yup.gif

 

[QUICUMQUE_VULT]

I attend both. The TLM on Sundays. and our very simple reverent abuse-free NO on the weekdays. (When I can make it)

I am A convert.post VII
I was converted by the TLM. It is almost the only Mass I have ever known.
I have attended the NO in different parts of the country since my conversion.
I love the TLM for these reasons.
The awesome silence
The beautiful music at Solemn High Mass
Theocentricity
The truths of the Catholic Faith so manifest, in every word,action.and gesture.
And at the end the “Last Gospel”
which reinforces our act of faith in the Divinity of Christ.
Our parish makeup is about
10% Seniors
30% middle age
the rest young families and singles. (we have lots of wailing babies)

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I am an occaisional Tridentine Mass-goer, mostly on Sunday to High Mass and sometimes during the week. I attend the Novus Ordo Mass most often on weekdays or if I’m not in Lincoln on Sunday. I think I’ll probably go tomorrow, because Low Mass starts at 7:00, will be done by 8:00 then I have until 11:00 for class to start. It’ll get me up early enough to make better use of my day-and what better start to a day than Holy Mass?

To answer the questions originally posed:

Music?

Yes, music is much better than your average Novus Ordo. Gregorian chant and traditional hymns are my favorite. However, I’m not opposed to modern hymns-I just don’t like the lame “God loves you” type. For the Novus Ordo, our campus chapel has pretty good music, a mix of old hymns with reverent and thoroughly Catholic but more modern ones.

Homily?

Eh…our FSSP priest gives a good homily, but I can’t say that I hear too many bad or lame ones from the Novus Ordo parishes I frequent.

Silence?

It is about the same for all the churches I go to-nice and silent prayer time before Mass or recitation of the Rosary. Only major breaks in silence are babies and young children which is of course understandable.

Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area?

Nah, they’re all pretty good although some could use a little work for my personal taste. They are all orthodox though.

Raised in TLM and still gravitate that way?

Nope, born in '83 and went to my first Tridentine Mass last year.

Or other?

I do have an other though. I hope to attend the Seminary for the Archdiocese of Omaha next fall. So, with that in mind I kinda want to see how the “Old Way” was and what I can do to make my Masses (if I get ordained, by the Grace of God!) to be more traditional. Quite frankly, I’d like to say the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, save the readings and maybe the Creed. I would like traditional style hymns and chant used. If I ever get the chance, I’d like to reinstall Communion rails and encourage their use. Also, I’d like to renovate (if possible or needed) my parish with other traditional archetecture and decor. Furthermore, I’d like to make confessions available before every Mass and make it otherwise generally available.

Basically, I would like to do my small part to make the Novus Ordo “traditional”. I like what I saw in Lincoln, and in the local FSSP/Tridentine parish and hope to take that little bit of Lincoln with me to Omaha. Not to say that Omaha is heterodox (it isn’t) but there are some things I think we can improve. Everybody needs a little improvement.

What about the culture within your TLM communities? Are they generally faithful to all doctrines or are they selective? Is this discussed among parishioners?

One thing I’ve noticed, but only in “feeling” is a sort of tension between some people in the Tridentine parish with the Novus Ordo. Quite frankly, the Novus Ordo is here to stay. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, other than that false notion of the “Spirit of Vatican II”. Kill that demon, and we’d be fine.

Were you born and raise pre or post vatican 2?

Post.

Do you see young people attending and if so, what is the rough mix (like 80% senior 20% youthful, or include middle age - rough percentages).?

It seems like mostly families, with most kids between infant and 12. Quite a few older folks, not too terribly many people in their 20’s like myself. I personally don’t “recruit” anyone to come to the Tridentine parish. I tell anyone and everyone about it and figure if they want to see how it is then they’ll go or ask to go with me sometimes.

 

[InOurLady]

Hi folks. I am relatively young and grew up with the NO Mass. I went to the TLM originally because a friend of mine was going to celebrate, and fell in love with the Mass. To follow properly, you must be silent, meditative and recollected. Also, the Liturgy itself is so rich and deep with the references to the angels and the priest constantly pleading for the people. It is the most beautiful thing I have ever experienced. Christmas at St. Josephat for the TLM was just like heaven.

InOurLady

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I attend a TLM at St. Mary’s Cathedral Basilica in Covington as often as humanly possible. Once I get a driving licence, I will go every sunday.

**Music? **
Definately. Music which is not written by modernists but which allows me to worship as Catholics have for two millenia.

Homily?
Msgr. Cleve gives a good homily, but I would not say it is the reason I love attending.

**Silence? **
Yes. In the Novus Ordo I try to pray the Prayer of St. Thomas Aquainas before communion, but I cannot as apparently I am supposed to be consecrating the host along with the priest. (Note: I know my theology…my point is that at NO the people say as much as the priest during the Roman Canon.)

Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area?
Jingo. I have to attend a Mass plagued with modern piano music and nothing traditional at all in it if I want to go to a NO Mass.

Raised in TLM and still gravitate that way?
I’m 14 years old. If I were born into the last days of the TLM it would be 1976.

**Or other? **
I must say I like all-boy altar boys, the reverent atmosphere, people who respect the Blessed Sacrament, etc.

**What about the culture within your TLM communities? Are they generally faithful to all doctrines or are they selective? Is this discussed among parishioners? **
The Msgr., being rector of the Basilica, says Novus Ordo Mass most of the rest of the time. I would say it is very obedient, not selective or schismatic.

**Were you born and raise pre or post vatican 2? **
Still 14.

Do you see young people attending and if so, what is the rough mix (like 80% senior 20% youthful, or include middle age - rough percentages).?
I am a young people attending. Though it is a fairly even mix of all age groups.

 

[Eileen_T]

I grew up with the TLM and loved it. In my teens the NO Mass made it’s appearance and I didn’t have any problem with it. For many years, after marrying, I lived in a small town and we were blessed with priests who seemed to ‘get lost’ in the Consecration (as St Padre Pio is said to have done). Mass was a truly uplifting experience.

Over the past 5-10 years I nexperienced several changes that I was uncomfortable with.

Music?

Many old and loved hymns vanished without trace, replaced with ‘modern’ hymns many of which were so banal that they barely deserve the title of hymns. At the TLM we all sing Gregorian Chant.

I found guitars and drums, (even a trumpet!) were not conducive to worship and, more often than not, eliminated any sense of sacred silence (esp. after Communion).

Homily?

As a previous poster said, jokes and gimmicks became commonplace and homilies seemed to be aimed to entertain rather than instruct or teach.

Silence?

Except at a weekday NO Mass there is none. The TLM allows time to talk to God interiorly and, more important, it allows me to hear Him talk to me.

Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area?

No, but, as has been said before, all the extras such as holding hands, EMHC when not necessary, sign of peace frenzies, not to mention outright liturgical abuses creeping in incrementally, predispose me to prefer the TLM.

Raised in TLM and still gravitate that way?

Loved the NO Mass until it began to ‘evolve’ in recent years, sometimes going against the GIRM.

Or other?

Until I stumbled onto the TLM a couple of years ago, when it happened to be the only Mass that I could manage to get to time-wise, I was beginning to feel more and more distant from Calvary during the Consecration.

" I can’t explain it, but at the Concecration I feel something inside of me, deep inside that is a feeling I never get at any other time."

In the TLM, when the priest says “Sursum corda” (“Lift up your hearts to the Lord”) and we reply “Habenus ad Dominum” (“We lift them up to the Lord”). That is exactly how I feel during the Consecration, as though my heart is trying to burst out of me, I am at the foot of the Cross but I am also in Heaven before the throne of the Lamb.

What about the culture within your TLM communities? Are they generally faithful to all doctrines or are they selective? Is this discussed among parishioners?

Definitely faithful to all doctrines. These are also people who are 100% pro-life.

Were you born and raised pre or post vatican 2?

Pre V2. It was many years before I read the Documents of Vatican II, in an effort to find an answer to many things that were happening in the Church (and churches) that disturbed me.

Do you see young people attending and if so, what is the rough mix (like 80% senior 20% youthful, or include middle age - rough percentages).?

In the 2-3 years that I have been attending the TLM I have seen many young adults (early 20s) come to us regularly from other parishes. Also parents with young children.

The other thing I dearly love to see is people waiting in line for Confession before Mass each Sunday. I heard the priest commented on that fact to the congregation at the NO Mass he celebrates prior to the Sunday TLM, trying to encourage them to go more regularly.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Servus Pio XII:

I attend a TLM at St. Mary’s Cathedral Basilica in Covington as often as humanly possible. Once I get a driving licence, I will go every sunday.

**Music? **
Definately. Music which is not written by modernists but which allows me to worship as Catholics have for two millenia.

Homily?
Msgr. Cleve gives a good homily, but I would not say it is the reason I love attending.

**Silence? **
Yes. In the Novus Ordo I try to pray the Prayer of St. Thomas Aquainas before communion, but I cannot as apparently I am supposed to be consecrating the host along with the priest. (Note: I know my theology…my point is that at NO the people say as much as the priest during the Roman Canon.)

Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area?
Jingo. I have to attend a Mass plagued with modern piano music and nothing traditional at all in it if I want to go to a NO Mass.

Raised in TLM and still gravitate that way?
I’m 14 years old. If I were born into the last days of the TLM it would be 1976.

**Or other? **
I must say I like all-boy altar boys, the reverent atmosphere, people who respect the Blessed Sacrament, etc.

**What about the culture within your TLM communities? Are they generally faithful to all doctrines or are they selective? Is this discussed among parishioners? **
The Msgr., being rector of the Basilica, says Novus Ordo Mass most of the rest of the time. I would say it is very obedient, not selective or schismatic.

**Were you born and raise pre or post vatican 2? **
Still 14.

Do you see young people attending and if so, what is the rough mix (like 80% senior 20% youthful, or include middle age - rough percentages).?
I am a young people attending. Though it is a fairly even mix of all age groups.

So, does this mean you are going to join the altar-boy corp when you can drive?