TLM'ers - Why do you go?

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ALL:

What observations can you tell me about within your TLM community with regards to altar boys/men. Are the servers limited to 14 and under, or are there a fair number of older teens, young adults, middle-aged and seniors? Do any of you serve?
 
39 years old.

I attend the TLM at Mater Ecclesiae RCC (www.materecclesiae.org).

I go there because I do not like the guitar strumming kumbuya glory and praise music, priest inventing things to do at Mass, altar girls, lay people distributing communion, people receiving in the hand, proper vessels not used, old rubrics discarded for many things, offertory prayers eliminated, no one genuflects anymore, double genuflections as required when Blessed Sacrament is exposed abolished, priest faces people during the Mass, people talk in church very loudly, ugly vestments, sometimes nothing but white alb and stole, people kissing at sign of peace, priest leaving altar at sign of peace, holding hands during Pater Noster, hand gestures by congregation whenever they respond “and also with you”, priest crying aloud in tongues after the consecratiion, no paten used with distribution of Holy Communion, standing for Holy Communion, Gregorian Chant and Latin eliminated, women do not wear head covering, people dress shabbilly, statues in the church were removed years ago, high altar was smashed and thrown in the garbage and replaced by the Cramner table, the NO Mass seems to be less sacred than what is actually happening on the Altar.

Sermons from the priest never touch on things such as Hell, Purgatory, Indulgences… you know, all those things Protestants hate.

Ken
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
ALL:

What observations can you tell me about within your TLM community with regards to altar boys/men. Are the servers limited to 14 and under, or are there a fair number of older teens, young adults, middle-aged and seniors? Do any of you serve?
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Mostly the servers at my TLM community today are younger men like 14 and under as you say. Only a few are adults. I used to serve as MC and Thurifer (at the age of 35 that was I am 39 now) until I got married at the age of 37 and had to be in the congregation with my wife and kids.

When our Mission Church was established most of the servers were older men like myself. However since then the aim has been more toward young boys as serving Mass is to aid in a young man to discern a vocation to the priesthood… you know,… as it used to be before altar girls.

Ken
 
MUSIC:

Before 9/11, we alternated between a High Mass and a Low Mass. The Sunday after 9/11, the priest at the homily cried out, “What was I thinking? From now on, Every Sunday will be a High Mass!”

HOMILY:

The Homily tends to be satisfyingly intellectually stimulating. We even received a homily in which it was suggested that we need to be more humble. (When’s the last time you heard humility as regards your own personal life brought up in a homily?) We were also encouraged that, although it was several weeks before Lent, we practice one penance of our choosing for one week.

SILENCE:

The silence before Mass is broken only by the recitation of the Rosary … both the silence and the Rosary are greatly appreciated. When I attend the Novus Ordo Mass, there are times when the rowdy trivial chit-chat becomes a near occasion of sin and I have more than once approached complete strangers to upbraid them for their talking in front of the Blessed Sacrament … in as charitable a manner as I can muster.

The interior silence during Latin Mass is so beautiful that it can barely be described. The Presence of the Trinity enriches even the oxygen in the air so that you can better sense you are in a holy place. While the radiance of the Holy Spirit can also be experienced in a Novus Ordo Mass, for me personally, the Latin Mass seems more conducive to bringing closer the Presence of God.

**Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area? **

Does “traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo” have a particular meaning above and beyond a Novus Ordo celebrated with fitting reverence for Our Eucharistic Lord? In any case, I am currently a member of a Novus Ordo parish, meanwhile attending the Latin Mass only once in a while because it’s a longer drive.

Raised in TLM and still gravitate that way?

No, I was raised with the English-language Mass. However, I’ve always loved the richness of tradition in the Catholic Church, and I’ve also loved different languages as well, and studied Latin in high school.

What about the culture within your TLM communities?

Am not a parishioner, but from my observations, the TLM community seems to share my conservatism = faithful to all doctrines, except for one TAN booklet which seemed a bit off that I was given by one consistent attendee of the Latin Mass. The TLM community, being smaller, strikes me as more courteous and perhaps even friendlier than the Novus Ordo parishes I’ve been to. For this reason I would love to join the TLM parish. However based on the distance from where I live, I decided not to take the plunge.

**Were you born and raise pre or post vatican 2? **

Born right around Vatican II … Who knows, as a baby I may have been taken to the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass, but if so I have no memory of it.

Age Demographics:

All ages are represented at the TLM, from families with young kids including little girls wearing white chapel veils on up through our respected seasoned citizens, as Rush Limbaugh would say.

Altar Boys:

All are male. All ages are represented from boys to young adults to older men, and they like to have plenty of altar boys per Mass, say, around six.

~~ the phoenix
 
the phoenix said:
MUSIC:

Before 9/11, we alternated between a High Mass and a Low Mass. The Sunday after 9/11, the priest at the homily cried out, “What was I thinking? From now on, Every Sunday will be a High Mass!”

HOMILY:

The Homily tends to be satisfyingly intellectually stimulating. We even received a homily in which it was suggested that we need to be more humble. (When’s the last time you heard humility as regards your own personal life brought up in a homily?) We were also encouraged that, although it was several weeks before Lent, we practice one penance of our choosing for one week.
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That’s one of the topics I found so shocking in my traditional N.O. Parish. Along with that were the following words or expressions:
  • Sacrifice
  • “Offer it up”
  • Training the will and mortification
  • sin
  • judgment
  • hell
  • purification
  • immorality
  • self-deception
Of course, these are not to the exclusion of the usual list of love, charity, community, peace, mercy, etc. Rather, they compliment it enabling me to feel the fullness of the faith, not just the easy parts. While things like love and mercy are comforting to us, items in the list are aimed more at things we must do to please God. In other words, all my life I’ve been told how much God loves me in the many contemporary N.O. parishes to which I’ve belonged over a 20 year period. For the first time, I’m learning what I must do to truly love God back.

**Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area? **

Does “traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo” have a particular meaning above and beyond a Novus Ordo celebrated with fitting reverence for Our Eucharistic Lord? In any case, I am currently a member of a Novus Ordo parish, meanwhile attending the Latin Mass only once in a while because it’s a longer drive.

I would have never known there was such a thing until I was exposed to it myself. My “traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo” features an ad orientem posture by the priest (not necessary in my book, to be classified as traditional). While some traditional N.O. will have a priest ask that the sign of peace be exchanged, the ones I’ve been exposed to do not do this - they roll right into the Angus Dei after we say, “Et Cum Spiritu Tuo”. And, yes, it may or may not be in Latin, as mine is. There are no folk groups or contemporary music, but sacred music and chant. Priests are very reserved, not dynamic. In fact, most of those who celebrate the NO in my parish, also celebrate the TLM at nearby St. Jospehat in Detroit. Homilies are very rich in content and avoid nothing, especially the most difficult of moral issues. Cultures also value frequent confession so it is often seen before Mass with considerable use. Silence rules. Profound visible awareness and respect for the Blessed Sacrament (purposeful reverential gestures, especially when crossing the path of the Blessed Sacrament). That respect is also manifested in absolute silence before, during and after (no chit-chat). In my parish about 20% of the women where the mantilla. People often begin showing up 15-30 minutes or more before Mass and it is rare to see even one person fly out before the priest. A significant percentage - about 25-30% remain in their pews for 15-30 minutes following Mass as they sit silenty in mental prayer or do personal devotions (stations of the cross, rosary). Benediction takes place weekly.

I’d be hard pressed to find a traditional N.O. parish that has female altar servers.

I think you get the picture.
 
Just before the bell rings to announce the commencement of the Massthere is always this profound silence, and it is for me a sort of eager anticipation

the NO in my area is like being in a bingo hall, the noise of folk calling out and wandering about, there is no focal point and I felt very odd with my rosary …I felt why were they there, and when the priest wandered out I felt dismayed and ashamed.
 
The more I read, the more I wonder why the Church doesn’t begin an extensive survey of those attending TLM masses.

Silence versus noise seems to be one of the common themes. This is something Pope Benedict, Pope John Paul, and Cardinal Arinze have spoken on before - that social hour should take place in the Church hall. Somehow, that message is not getting to the people. A parish priest who values that silence as a manifestation of respect for the Blessed Sacrament, and for respect of one’s neighbor desiring to pray in silence, will work to foster a “church-silent” community. That is, a community that values its verbal interactions before and after Mass.

Silence is aligned with Church teaching before, during and after the Mass; idle chit-chat and noise is not aligned with teaching on the liturgy. If parishes were honoring this I don’t think we would hear about so much chit-chat and noise in these forums.

One by one, the Church needs to identify issues like this to work through. The silence factor alone is likely not the reason why people go to a TLM. However, it appears to be a contributor.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
The more I read, the more I wonder why the Church doesn’t begin an extensive survey of those attending TLM masses.
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I agree. Especially since we represent 10% (or more) of the Church, our opinions should be given considerable weight.

If we could get people to view talking loudly in church before and after Mass as being uncharitable, maybe it would stop. Considering how many people accuse others of being “uncharitable”, I gather that’s the worst sin a person can commit. :ehh:
 
Dr. Bombay:
I agree. Especially since we represent 10% (or more) of the Church, our opinions should be given considerable weight.

If we could get people to view talking loudly in church before and after Mass as being uncharitable, maybe it would stop. Considering how many people accuse others of being “uncharitable”, I gather that’s the worst sin a person can commit. :ehh:
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I could not agree more on the charity issue. People expect worshipers to be charitable towards those who are doing the talking, but think nothing of the uncharitableness imparted upon those trying to connect silently with the Lord. For some, it is the only place they can hope for some peace and quiet.
 
Music? - Yes, I prefer chant even to traditional hymns at Mass. The traditional hymns seem out of place at Mass to me, but, of course, that is a personal preference.

Homily? - Definitely.

Silence? - Silence in the proper proportions and at the right times can be very powerful and even spiritually necessary. There is just something quite amazing about two hundred people - men, women, and children - all silently worshipping God together.

Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area? Originally, yes. I like to say that the abuses in the NOM drove me to the TLM, but the beauty and reverence of the TLM kept me.

Raised in TLM and still gravitate that way? Nope. I was raised in a very reverent NOM parish. I was an altar boy, and even discerned a vocation to the priesthood at one point.

What about the culture within your TLM communities? Are they generally faithful to all doctrines or are they selective? Is this discussed among parishioners? - As far as I can tell most, if not all, of the faithful at my oratory are extremely orthodox. Our priest does a great job of reigning in the more extreme elements in the parish.

Were you born and raise pre or post vatican 2? Post.

Do you see young people attending and if so, what is the rough mix (like 80% senior 20% youthful, or include middle age - rough percentages).? In our oratory we have a lot of young families. I would say that 70% of the parish are young families and children, 20% are seniors, with about 10% being middle aged. We have a growing community. Both Masses are bursting the seams, and with all the births in the past several years we are desparately in need of a new church or an additional Mass.
 
Well, I’m 37. I came along right at VII so I did not know anything else until about 3 1/2 years ago when I visited my parents and went to a TLM with them. All I can say is that it changed me profoundly. I had already come back to the church after many years, but I felt like that was the first time I had attended Mass. It was so beautiful. I am not a real touchy feely person, so the TLM allows me to worship in a more focused way. I feel much more a part of the Mass because with the missal, I understand everything. It has taught me more about my faith than anything else. It also showed me the beauty of the Mass. All of it works together. The music ( I love hearing the children’s choir sing Panis Angelicus as I walk up for Communion), the incense, the silence, it all reminds you that you are indeed in a sacred place that is intended for only one purpose, the Liturgy. Unfortunately I don’t live where my parents do yet and ther are no TLM for 3 hrs where I do live. But my parents church has lots of very young families. Very larges ones at that. Since I don’t live there and go only occasionally, I don’t usually stop after Mass to discuss anything with the parshioners. I do know that respect and adherence to Catholic traditions and doctrine are much talked about by the priest and in the bulletins. Anyway, that’s all I have to say. Can’t wait to start attending regularly!
 
I don’t get to attend a TLM every week, but here are some observations based on what I have seen.
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Lux_et_veritas:
Music? No “modern” music. Some hymns in English. One thing that disturbs me greatly is that many TLM choirs have women in them. I wish that all TLMs would have all-male choirs.

Homily? Generally very good. I wish that the sermons would be longer.

Silence? Absolutely wonderful! At many TLMs, the congregation does not give the responses, only the altar boys and/or choir. This is how it should be all of the time! I don’t give the responses. I have actually been to Low Masses where there was no altar boy. The Priest gave the responses to himself.

Lack of traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo’s in your area?

We have some okay ones in my area. One of them even had the Sanctus in Latin recently. But they are all afflicted with Extraordinary MInisters of Holy Communion, most of whom are women.

Raised in TLM and still gravitate that way?

I am a recent convert. I went to my first TLM in about September or October of 2004.

Or other?

Before 2004, I don’t think that I knew that patens (to put under the chin of the communicant) even existed!

What about the culture within your TLM communities? Are they generally faithful to all doctrines or are they selective? Is this discussed among parishioners?

The TLM people that I have met(I only go to “approved” TLMs) are generally faithful to Church doctrines, but there are a (very) few political liberals.

One thing that I have sadly noticed is the enormous amount of people that seem to support “extreme traditionalism” in various ways, for example:
  1. Thinking that Archbishop Lefebvre was a hero for consecrating those four Bishops without Papal permission.
  2. Thinking that the Novus Ordo Mass is a sacrilege, even when celebrated correctly. Some people will attend Novus Ordo Masses only for weddings and funerals, and then not receive Holy Communion.
  3. Thinking groups such as the SSPX are the best guardians of Tradition.
  4. Thinking that John Paul II and Paul VI were the worst Popes that the Catholic Church has ever had.
  5. Not being as respectful at Novus Ordo Masses as at Tridentine Masses.
I actually find it difficult to make friends at TLM Mass sites, since so many people seem to have schismatic views.

I will note that the “difficult people” at Tridentine Masses do not all subscribe to all of the points that I have outlined above.

Were you born and raise pre or post vatican 2?

Post.

Do you see young people attending and if so, what is the rough mix (like 80% senior 20% youthful, or include middle age - rough percentages).?

Some older people, some young people, some middle-aged.
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GoLatin,

Those observations you make and resultant perceptions that make the culture in this parish seem supportive of the schismatic SSPX, lead me to wonder if the pastor is working at curbing that. Hopefully, he is not fueling it in any way and talks of it some time.

I would hope I could find a charitable way to defend Holy Mother Church against such attacks the same way I would defend her against the opposite - those who attack her from a progressive-dissident point of view.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
GoLatin,

Those observations you make and resultant perceptions that make the culture in this parish seem supportive of the schismatic SSPX, lead me to wonder if the pastor is working at curbing that. Hopefully, he is not fueling it in any way and talks of it some time.

I would hope I could find a charitable way to defend Holy Mother Church against such attacks the same way I would defend her against the opposite - those who attack her from a progressive-dissident point of view.
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Try to keep in mind that many of the people at the indult were originally attending SSPX or independent chapels. In their mind, the pressure that was exerted by the SSPX was the reason Pope John Paul II issued the indult in the first place. I am not sure I would disagree with that thought. From what I have been told, the fastest way to get an indult mass in a diocese is to have the SSPX set up a chapel.

Until Archbishop Lefebvre ordained the illict bishops, I thought he was fighting the good fight to keep the TLM alive. And maybe some feel he deserves a little salute for his efforts to retain the Latin Mass.

It dawned on me a few weeks ago that for some of the former members of the SSPX reminded me of some people in my part of the country that have a soft spot in their heart for the old Confederacy. Not for the slavery, or the war, or even for the form of government, but for the fight fought well. People in the South still fly their “Stars and Bars” but also fly “Ol’ Glory” in greater numbers than the rest of the country. They volunteer for the military in higher numbers and consider themselves as patriotic Americans. So those who have fought for the TLM in their diocese remember the good fight, but in turn are “orthodox Catholics” in their lives.
 
Altar servers in the TLM here range from teenage boys to middle aged men. Yes, I think only males should be allowed to be altar servers. It is probably not coincidental that vocations to the priesthood are higher where serving is reserved to males.

I may look at serving in the TLM at some point in the future. I am a lector of many years in the NO, and have one or two more Masses to read at before I make the switch to the TLM (either on Ash Wednesday or the first Sunday of Lent). Since there are no lectors in the TLM, I may look at altar serving instead.

BTW, before I discovered the TLm last September, I had never even heard the term “Novus Ordo” and wouldn’t have been able to tell you what one was to save my life. Hardly a day goes by now when I do not use the term at least once a day.
 
I’m 30 and a convert of almost 12 years, so until a couple years ago, the Novus Ordo Mass was all I knew. And then a couple years ago one Sunday I decided to make a road trip up to the archdiocese’s indult parish just to see what a TLM was like (99 miles one way). It was different, and I found it quite nice, if not a little difficult to follow, even with a missal! I visited a couple more times over the next year or so and got addicted to it, and then I started making friends there, so I started making the long drive every Sunday!

I love everything about the TLM – organ music, traditional hymns and chanting, incense, etc. And the silence is my favorite – during the week I attend daily Mass at my local Novus Ordo parish, and after Mass I like to stay a while and pray, but everyone else gets up and starts talking loudly, which I find extremely rude. On more than one occasion I’ve gone up to people who have been talking loudly just a few feet or even inches away from me and asked them to kindly go outside to talk. They probably didn’t like that too much. 😉

I must admit, however, that part of me was hesitant to attend the TLM regularly, as I was scared that I might find a bunch of people whose attitudes made them indistinguishable from those who frequent SSPX and independent Masses. And frankly, I’d rather deal with liberal-minded cafeteria Catholics than extreme traditionalists. But fortunately, that hasn’t seemed to be the case for the most part, although I HAVE met a few people there who think the Novus Ordo is in itself a sacrilege or invalid. To such people I just want to say, “Don’t you think you’d be happier at an SSPX or independent chapel? They have all the Tridentine Masses you want with none of the loyalty to the Pope you don’t want!” I know that probably sounds like a slogan for some low-fat food (“all the taste with none of the fat”), LOL!! I’ve also met a couple people who, if they can’t get to a TLM on a given Sunday or holy day of obligation, wrongly think that it frees them from their obligation. I’ve even heard that some will actually get dispensations from our pastor for that (I would hope they did it under false pretenses, acting like they wouldn’t be able to attend Mass period. I hope our priests would know better than to give a dispensation from the obligation just because an individual was unable to attend a TLM.). But most people there seem to be very orthodox.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
GoLatin,

Those observations you make and resultant perceptions that make the culture in this parish seem supportive of the schismatic SSPX, lead me to wonder if the pastor is working at curbing that. Hopefully, he is not fueling it in any way and talks of it some time.

I would hope I could find a charitable way to defend Holy Mother Church against such attacks the same way I would defend her against the opposite - those who attack her from a progressive-dissident point of view.
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This is not a specific Parish that I am talking about, this is just my observations of many TLM people.
 
I normally attend the N.O. Mass at my parish. Several times a year I travel to Washington, DC to Old St. Mary’s for the TLM and this past year I was privileged to attend a daily TLM while I was in Rome.

I love the language of the Mass, which even in translation goes right to the heart. I love the role of the priest, as he approaches the altar and stands before God as he prepares to pray the Sacrifice-- the “judica me”, the “introibo ad altare dei”.

I participate far more at the TLM as I follow the English translation in the Missal, my mind doesn’t tend to wander as it does during the N.O.

When the priest says “Ecce Agnus Dei” I am on my knees which seems to be the most natural place to be when we behold the lamb of God.

I love receiving Communion on my knees and on the tongue.

I don’t have to worry about the priest making goofy jokes during Mass, or applause, as if it is an entertainment.
 
I forgot to mention that I was a protestant who was attracted to the TLM back in 1960. There was no contest between the Mass and the protestant worship service. Then, one day they took it away.😦
 
I’m 39. I just switched to TLM 5 months ago. After a decade or so of putting up with the nonsense at the various N.O. parishes which I attended, I finally had enough. I watched as my children’s faith was challenged by Santa Claus plays in the sanctuary. A girl Jesus in one of the passion plays (real cute huh?) Children brought up around the alter to help “father” consecrate at mass. A so called “catholic” university in which a professor of theology told us that “transubstantiation” was a passe’ belief of the Roman Catholic Church. Disobedience on top of disobedience to the pope regarding rubrics and orders found in documents like “Redemptionis Sacamentum” . The list could go on ad infinitum.

When I hear people say that independent TLM communities are disobedient to the pope I just have to laugh now. It’s a nice defense mechanism I guess for those who attend the so called “indult” mass because they recognize the sacreligious atmosphere of the N.O. and yet they can’t realize that that atmosphere is a direct result of the changes made by and continued on by the Post Vatican II popes. After all, if you have a Cardinal Mahoney type running your diocese, who do you think put him there and who do you think allows him to keep promoting the abuses?

The last couple of years before I switched I tried and tried to deal with the N.O. mass, but nearly every Sunday I found myself leaving the church more disgusted than the previous. Finally, I began reading about the changes that Luther, Cranmer and the other Protestant revolters made to the mass to do away with the Sacrafice of the Mass which they hated so much. Then you compare that to what was done to the Mass by Anaballe Bugnini and company. The similarities are quite eye opening.

I only wish that I had seen the light earlier in life.
 
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