To a Roman Catholic are Protestants good Christians?

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Just to clarify a little, I never came across Radical traditionalists until I dropped in Catholic discussion forums. Then I found they dominated the forums! I am sure there are many various forms of Catholics that post but I find, still, the Latin only Traditionalists dominate. Even if they do not dominate in terms of number, they do in terms of power and setting the tone. I think less radical, less canon law obsessive types tend to give up after a while and wander off. I know I did!

Example: I found what I thought was a moderate Catholic discussion forum (after finding masses of super-Traditionalist ones.) But, bit by bit the radical “No Salvation outside the Church” ‘Traditionalists’ came to dominate more and more. I had one discussion with a super-Latin only, everyone except me and my mate Derek (and his pet tortoise ‘Tommy’) is a heretic and wet Vatican II liberal. He really was the most extreme, obsessive, Radical Traditionalist on the board bar none! He literally advocated, in one discussion I had with him, the laity turn up to Mass, say nothing, do nothing, leave and behave as sheep; “Lest they take away from the elevation of the priest.” I gave up in disgust with him! I dropped in a week later just out of ‘road crash’ curiousity. He had been made one of the moderators.

Nuff said.

Real Catholics don’t argue over the fine points of canon law and the encyplical ‘Vesper Manderina’ by Pope Pius MCCXII from 1341 which states, “No-one may be saved who wears a ginger toupee.” Well, not on a daily basis anyway. They go off and do things. Example: Last night I was at a meeting of my community in which we gave personal sharing, we prayed over one another (oh no, how Protestant!!) and prepared for our next evangelism outreach. One girl who was a visitor loved it and it solidified her resolved to join us fully. Last night confirmed (again) for me that forums are largely a distraction from real Christian living. I am sure that many non-radical Traditionalists post on these forums but I find the ‘super-pious’ (“cold is God’s way of telling us to burn more Protestants!”) have the loudest voices on ANY English speaking Catholic forums and, thus, without knowing this, people who come in from the outside can get the wrong idea. (I mean, I don’t know any Catholics outside of forums who even use the word ‘Pious!’ Holy, yes. Reverent, yes. Pious??!!!)

Forums can be useful but you’ve got to bear in mind that they tend to attract obsessive’s. I also know form bitter experience there is no persuading the super-radical-Traditionalist-Fenneite types. It’s a bit like trying to persuade James White. I used to try and then realised how much time I wasting. If certain Catholics won’t hear the Vatican, the Pope or the catachism they won’t hear you. I’m not trying to be ‘mean’ I’m just trying to make sure people take their forum experiences, shall we say, in context. Yeah, I am being a bit British ironic but I am making a serious point that the ‘flavour’ of theology exposed on Catholic forums is not representative of Catholicism worldwide. There’s a reason for that other than the rest of the world are all limp wrested liberals.

I say, if you want to know the faith, read the Catachism and the apologists - Scott Hahn, Dave Armstrong, Gary Hoge, etc, etc.

Oh, sorry, they’re liberals. I forgot.

Have fun! Carry on! 🙂
If that’s British irony, I love it!!! 😃 You are right on the money here. I was wondering why I felt severely outnumbered here.
Well said!!! :clapping: :yup: 👍
 
A Catechism is merely a tool to teach the faith. It is not an infallible proclaimation of the faith.

There are many Catechisms- mostly by Popes and Bishops over the centuries, and used to educate the faithful. It just happens that the latest Catechism put forth by the Holy See is the 1984 Catechism.

But because a Catechism is merely a tool, it is not infallible. It does not define the faith; it does not declare articles of the faith- it only teaches the faith.

A history textbook doesnt create historical facts, does it? Well, the same goes for the Catechism. Faith is not created by the Catechism, it is taught through it.
Exactly, catechism teaches the faith. However, you haven’t absorbed it’s lesson yet, at least not in this particular case. How many times do we have to show you??
 
Exactly, catechism teaches the faith. However, you haven’t absorbed it’s lesson yet, at least not in this particular case. How many times do we have to show you??
Then get to your point instead of wasting every post you make in insults.
 
All I’ve attempted to do is show you your error on the salvation thing, so I’ve made my point, several times. While it’s frustrating to me that you refuse to acknowledge you could be wrong, despite being shown proof, I’ve tried to contain that frustration. If I have failed at that, then I apologize.

Perhaps you are annoyed that I may be right? There is nothing wrong about acknowleging error. I have no problem with it, if I’m proven wrong.
 
Huh? When did I insult you? :confused:

All I’ve attempted to do is show you your error on the salvation thing, so I’ve made my point, several times. While it’s frustrating to me that you refuse to acknowledge you could be wrong, despite being shown proof, I’ve tried to contain that frustration. If I have failed at that, then I apologize.

Perhaps you are annoyed that I may be right? There is nothing wrong about acknowleging error. I have no problem with it, if I’m proven wrong.
Caesar doesn’t like to be wrong. :rolleyes:
 
Its a sad day in the Church when somone can be considered a radical for not wanting to change Dogma…

When the Church defines a Dogma, it is the Church’s interpertation of that Truth that God has revealed to it.

So why are people trying to ‘interpret’ an ‘interpretation’ to suit their own agenda?

Face it…the Question was “Are Non-Catholics Saved?”

The Church answered “There is no Salvation outside of the Church”

And now people are asking the same question again???

Something is wrong here…

The Church acknowledges that there are SOME people out there who are SPARED from damnation through mercy and their ignorance.

The Catholic Church DOES NOT and never will teach that people can be saved outside of the Church.

Being Sanctified through Christ, and saved by the Sacraments is reserved for Catholics alone. Only catholics (the living members of the Church in a State of Grace, with Good Faith and Good Works) can be saved through these means.

Those outside of the Church who attain salvation are SPARED from Eternal Damnation. They arent ‘saved’ in the same sense as Catholics are. They simply have a valid excuse “well I didnt know about the Church so Its not my fault”.

God in his Mercy accepts that excuse, provided that they are free from Mortal Sin and earnestly seek the truth.

Those people are a minority…

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

Is a DOGMA.
 
Its a sad day in the Church when somone can be considered a radical for not wanting to change Dogma…
Who said anything about wanting to change it? I just wish it could be explained with some clarity to all the non-Catholics who might be reading this so they can know the truth about Catholicism.
 
Since the conversation here is so intense, why don’t we cool it down with some Scripture?

This is worth meditating upon:

Mathew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling.

2 Timothy 2:4
[God] wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

Now, try to understand how I am trying to convey these passages. The both have to do with God’s desire to save all. God desires all to enter the Catholic Church and be saved. However, not everyone will enter it due to pride. Why does Jesus lament over these souls? Because they would not heed his call.

There are also souls who will hear about the Church, or never overcome Invincible Ignorance. For these, I believe as the Church believes, that if they try will all their heart to live cleanly according to the law written on their hearts, God will make his will make his will know to them. God is rich in mercy and desires the salvation of all. But, I don’t think that the Spirit would be relunctant to show where the Church is to someone --most especially a baptized Christian-- who desires the to follow the truth. There are some Christians who will never get over the false information they hear about the Catholic Church, and therefore may never convert to it. But, if they follow the truth within their communities and strive diligently for the truth, God will save them from sin and almost always from the ingnorance of the Catholic Church.

However, Catholics should not be haughty (Especially myself), for “he who says he has no sin, remains in sin.” We Catholics, the member of the Catholic Church, are responsible for wounding the unity of the Western Church, too. In the middle ages, we were responisible for the Reformation because of the corruption we were allowing. We failed to teach adecuately and show love. We must always behave in humility toward our seperated brethren. We should also use St. Francis de Sales as our role model. He treated the Calvinists with kindness. If anything, we should pray for the reunification of the Protestant Churches with Rome, and help any Protestant brother and sister who might be struggling with Invincible Ignorance through false facts, etc. I consider myself the worst of all Catholics, with my constant falling into Mortal Sin. I prefer to beat myself up because of my pride than any other thing. What a great thing it is to have a devout Protestant by my side than a false Catholic. Yet, even better is it to have a devout Catholic than a devout Protestant (simply because the Catholic would understand me more, but no means to offend).
 
Who said anything about wanting to change it? I just wish it could be explained with some clarity to all the non-Catholics who might be reading this so they can know the truth about Catholicism, versus a right-wing radical Catholic traditionalist.
yes it is a tough subject… and hard to explain to non-Catholics, and apparently to some Catholics too.:rolleyes:

Caesar is young, and I had asked a while back to give him a break while he works his way through this particular understanding… no big deal if his youth is showing. He is not an authority.

Now I ask the same concerning some of your posts…

I try to give you a break too for some of the erroneous statements you have made which do no less than confuse the readers… who might now be either puzzled or amused, or sadly affected/mislead by your labeling… unless they too recognize the obstacle of your youth which you may one day conquer.

.
 
Who said anything about wanting to change it? I just wish it could be explained with some clarity to all the non-Catholics who might be reading this so they can know the truth about Catholicism, versus a right-wing radical Catholic traditionalist.
Hmn…So you disagreed with Caesar when he claimed that people were throwing insults. Then you call somone a right-wing radical Catholic traditionalist.

Tell me which one of my statements (or Caesar’s) goes against Catholic Truth.

There is no Salvation outside of the Church.

And for some reason I’m a radical now who distorts truth just because I want to agree with that Dogma?
 
🙂 I’m joining this thread quite late but I was a cradel Catholic and fallen away to the Protestant realm for quite a few years and am back trying to get adjusted. I am a Roman Catholic now more than before and I was not a good Protestant Christian. I think there should be a support group for us like RA for reverts anonymous. Revert is a good name because you have to reverse your thinking in many aspects. Dessert
 
Thank you Missa Solemnis 😉

So, what exactly have either of us said wrong? Please quote the error and please show me where the Church says it is an error.
 
Since the conversation here is so intense, why don’t we cool it down with some Scripture?

This is worth meditating upon:

Mathew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling.

2 Timothy 2:4
[God] wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

Now, try to understand how I am trying to convey these passages. The both have to do with God’s desire to save all. God desires all to enter the Catholic Church and be saved. However, not everyone will enter it due to pride. Why does Jesus lament over these souls? Because they would not heed his call.

There are also souls who will hear about the Church, or never overcome Invincible Ignorance. For these, I believe as the Church believes, that if they try will all their heart to live cleanly according to the law written on their hearts, God will make his will make his will know to them. God is rich in mercy and desires the salvation of all. But, I don’t think that the Spirit would be relunctant to show where the Church is to someone --most especially a baptized Christian-- who desires the to follow the truth. There are some Christians who will never get over the false information they hear about the Catholic Church, and therefore may never convert to it. But, if they follow the truth within their communities and strive diligently for the truth, God will save them from sin and almost always from the ingnorance of the Catholic Church.

However, Catholics should not be haughty (Especially myself), for “he who says he has no sin, remains in sin.” We Catholics, the member of the Catholic Church, are responsible for wounding the unity of the Western Church, too. In the middle ages, we were responisible for the Reformation because of the corruption we were allowing. We failed to teach adecuately and show love. We must always behave in humility toward our seperated brethren. We should also use St. Francis de Sales as our role model. He treated the Calvinists with kindness. If anything, we should pray for the reunification of the Protestant Churches with Rome, and help any Protestant brother and sister who might be struggling with Invincible Ignorance through false facts, etc. I consider myself the worst of all Catholics, with my constant falling into Mortal Sin. I prefer to beat myself up because of my pride than any other thing. What a great thing it is to have a devout Protestant by my side than a false Catholic. Yet, even better is it to have a devout Catholic than a devout Protestant (simply because the Catholic would understand me more, but no means to offend).
Very good post. This is given with the air of God’s love and mercy. If we approached more topics in this way, (I’m trying), then perhaps more of the folks reading these posts may take a positive view, and perhaps attend a Mass, where I’m certain God would do the rest. He did for me. Once a person understands just the sacrament of Eucharist it’s hard not to weep over all the wasted time in one’s life in the cold shadows of not participating in this, the most glorious gift of God to man. Our Church speaks with sufficient truth through the sacraments, and rather than pointing out to people God’s words in a way in which they are weapon like, we should be trying to point towards the beauty of our church. Get people into a Mass, and have faith that the Holy Spirit, and Jesus, the Christ are perfectly capable of taking over from there. We should answer questions for non catholics in the most pleasant and attractive way available to us. It is a religion of Love. It is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. There are plenty of inherent selling points. Oh…I’m rambling. Just…thanks for the sanity, and the kindly spoken, yet meaningful words. Peace be with you, and with all my brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
Its a sad day in the Church when somone can be considered a radical for not wanting to change Dogma…

When the Church defines a Dogma, it is the Church’s interpertation of that Truth that God has revealed to it.

So why are people trying to ‘interpret’ an ‘interpretation’ to suit their own agenda?

Face it…the Question was “Are Non-Catholics Saved?”

The Church answered “There is no Salvation outside of the Church”

And now people are asking the same question again???

Something is wrong here…

The Church acknowledges that there are SOME people out there who are SPARED from damnation through mercy and their ignorance.

The Catholic Church DOES NOT and never will teach that people can be saved outside of the Church.

Being Sanctified through Christ, and saved by the Sacraments is reserved for Catholics alone. Only catholics (the living members of the Church in a State of Grace, with Good Faith and Good Works) can be saved through these means.

Those outside of the Church who attain salvation are SPARED from Eternal Damnation. They arent ‘saved’ in the same sense as Catholics are. They simply have a valid excuse “well I didnt know about the Church so Its not my fault”.

God in his Mercy accepts that excuse, provided that they are free from Mortal Sin and earnestly seek the truth.

Those people are a minority…

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

Is a DOGMA.
Saved is saved. You are mincing words. The CCC is clear that people outside of the Church may be saved. Why is that so hard to accept? Geez!
 
Hmn…So you disagreed with Caesar when he claimed that people were throwing insults. Then you call somone a right-wing radical Catholic traditionalist.

Tell me which one of my statements (or Caesar’s) goes against Catholic Truth.

There is no Salvation outside of the Church.

And for some reason I’m a radical now who distorts truth just because I want to agree with that Dogma?
Again, pls read your CCC.
 
How many times do we need to say this? Read your CCC! I even quoted it for you. It clearly elaborates on the salvation dogma issue and says people outside of the Catholic Church that meet certain criteria may be saved. :banghead: :banghead:

The Church clearly would not create catechism that violate it’s own Dogma. I can’t say this any more clear.
 
yes it is a tough subject… and hard to explain to non-Catholics, and apparently to some Catholics too.:rolleyes:

Caesar is young, and I had asked a while back to give him a break while he works his way through this particular understanding… no big deal if his youth is showing. He is not an authority.
Yes, he is young and the fact that he takes his faith seriously is a very good thing. However when he (or anybody else) says things that are not entirely accurate and possibly confusing to non-Catholics, then it needs to corrected, respectfully. I’m not saying opinions, I’m talking written fact.

However, it gets frustrating when you show somebody time and time again where they have errored and they refuse to acknowledge it. Sometimes that brings out the negative. However, I agree with you, it’s not right.

We all should strive to be respectful, no matter how hard it becomes. 😃
 
Yes, he is young and the fact that he takes his faith seriously is a very good thing. However when he (or anybody else) says things that are not entirely accurate and possibly confusing to non-Catholics, then it needs to corrected, respectfully. I’m not saying opinions, I’m talking written fact.

However, it gets frustrating when you show somebody time and time again where they have errored and they refuse to acknowledge it. Sometimes that brings out the negative. However, I agree with you, it’s not right.

We all should strive to be respectful, no matter how hard it becomes. 😃
:bowdown: :bigyikes:
 
How many times do we need to say this? Read your CCC! I even quoted it for you. It clearly elaborates on the salvation dogma issue and says people outside of the Catholic Church that meet certain criteria may be saved. :banghead: :banghead:

The Church clearly would not create catechism that violate it’s own Dogma. I can’t say this any more clear.
Then why do you say that non-Catholics can be saved and the Dogma is quite clear that they cannot?

As MissaSolemnis pointed out, spared yes, saved no.

And as for the Catechism thing, it entirely your opinion that Holy See cannot promulgate an erroneous Catechism, but until you can prove that the 1984 Catechism is infallible in itself, it is still possible that error can be placed in a fallible document.
 
Then why do you say that non-Catholics can be saved and the Dogma is quite clear that they cannot?

As MissaSolemnis pointed out, spared yes, saved no.

And as for the Catechism thing, it entirely your opinion that Holy See cannot promulgate an erroneous Catechism, but until you can prove that the 1984 Catechism is infallible in itself, it is still possible that error can be placed in a fallible document.
Unbelievable!!! BTW, if they are spared where do you think they go? I think it’s called Heaven. Sounds like Saved to me. :rolleyes:
 
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