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HopkinsReb
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I don’t remember saying that. Can you point out to me where I said that the Catholic Church’s handling of the abuse crisis has been perfect?
To all Roman Catholics in exile
- Thread starter JohnStrachan
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mcq72
Guest
To a point I agree. Thereafter totally disagree.
Like eating a whole fish. You find a few bones, and take them out. The fish is safely beneficial and enjoyable. But if you find too many bones, the meat just isn’t worth the hassle. A bony fish is a bony fish. At some point one realizes it is the nature of the fish. Tough to insist “but it is still The fish”, especially when one finds a less bony fish eleswhere. ( when I was a kid if I felt too many bones in my mouthful of fish, too many to force out, I would spew the whole mouthful out in frustration).
The hope and good news is for one to still eat fish. One hopes that a church will not tolerate too many bones in its self, and continue in perseverance to be Christ like. Enough that He is a stumbling block to those unregenerated, not needing any help from our fleshly errors or poor bedside manner, or sloppy agape.
Like eating a whole fish. You find a few bones, and take them out. The fish is safely beneficial and enjoyable. But if you find too many bones, the meat just isn’t worth the hassle. A bony fish is a bony fish. At some point one realizes it is the nature of the fish. Tough to insist “but it is still The fish”, especially when one finds a less bony fish eleswhere. ( when I was a kid if I felt too many bones in my mouthful of fish, too many to force out, I would spew the whole mouthful out in frustration).
The hope and good news is for one to still eat fish. One hopes that a church will not tolerate too many bones in its self, and continue in perseverance to be Christ like. Enough that He is a stumbling block to those unregenerated, not needing any help from our fleshly errors or poor bedside manner, or sloppy agape.
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JohnStrachan
New member
The “church” is not limited to the RC church. The church is the body of Christ in the world and it comes in many forms. Holiness does not mean without fault. The church is infused with the Holy Spirit, but people in leadership in the church make mistakes.
VC2 sought to make some necessary changes in the life of the church - some were of practical importance including a vernacular liturgy, bringing the church to the world and engaging with it, and ecumenism. But the church hasn’t gone far enough to the point where it is destructive in relations with her own members. Divorced Catholics and clergy who leave the priesthood are horribly stigmatized, clericalism abounds, lay people are not consulted even on matters concerning the local parish and there is a renewed Latinization of the church. For traditional Catholics this may serve as a reaffirmation of their faith, for the vast majority, VC2 has not been fully realized.
The landscape of the church is very different from that of 1962. The shortage of priests, the collapse in church attendance and religious vocations, the abuse crisis, the disconnection between official teaching on marriage and sexuality and what many Catholics believe, the alienation of many women and young people from the church, are problems that are becoming ever more acute. And if there is doubt that this is happening one only need turn their gaze to Ireland to see how a once proud Catholic nation has disintegrated due to a lack of trust.
These happenings are not a thing of Christ. Those in leadership - who have the capacity to change - are unable or unwilling to do so.
VC2 sought to make some necessary changes in the life of the church - some were of practical importance including a vernacular liturgy, bringing the church to the world and engaging with it, and ecumenism. But the church hasn’t gone far enough to the point where it is destructive in relations with her own members. Divorced Catholics and clergy who leave the priesthood are horribly stigmatized, clericalism abounds, lay people are not consulted even on matters concerning the local parish and there is a renewed Latinization of the church. For traditional Catholics this may serve as a reaffirmation of their faith, for the vast majority, VC2 has not been fully realized.
The landscape of the church is very different from that of 1962. The shortage of priests, the collapse in church attendance and religious vocations, the abuse crisis, the disconnection between official teaching on marriage and sexuality and what many Catholics believe, the alienation of many women and young people from the church, are problems that are becoming ever more acute. And if there is doubt that this is happening one only need turn their gaze to Ireland to see how a once proud Catholic nation has disintegrated due to a lack of trust.
These happenings are not a thing of Christ. Those in leadership - who have the capacity to change - are unable or unwilling to do so.
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Tommy999
Guest
Much appreciated, Lenten_ashes. You also provided some good food for thought. If I may ask, as a former Protestant, how has the sacrament of confession/reconciliation enhanced your life compared to when you confessed your sins directly to God without a priest when you were protestant. For me, I find Reconciliation even more intriguing than the Eucharist, even though I realize how important the Eucharist is.
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YourNameHere
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We are the church. Brothers and sister, like you and I. We all have to be saints.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I don’t mean to derail your thread, but what CajunJoy (a very good, strong Catholic from her regular posts) said is what Catholics believe.
We cannot somehow toss our belief out the window because it causes “resentment” among Protestants. It is wrong for people to come onto a Catholic forum and expect us to do this.
If you have a problem or disagreement with the view, this being a Catholic Apologetics forum, people will try to argue/ persuade you to accept the Catholic viewpoint.
This is the issue that comes up in any sort of ecumenical discussion: everything is friendliness and nicety until we run up against some strong belief of the Catholic Church that conflicts with what the person of another faith thinks. The person of another faith becomes upset because we do not agree with them, when we were all being so nice and getting along.
Unless we say nice things like “oh we’re all part of the same church” (which to me is Universalism and is wrong; we can say you’re partly in communion with the Catholic Church, which is what the Catechism states, but that’s different) then people get upset. I have pretty much thrown up my hands and stopped discussing the issue because for this sort of upset to happen on a Catholic forum is to me a disrespect of Catholic beliefs.
Please do not expect Catholics to compromise basic beliefs to make non-Catholics feel better.
Going back on mute now.
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TrueRomanCatholic
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I agree with this 100%! As I’m sure @(name removed by moderator) does too!
We are all agents of the one true Church and to minimize the Church by saying it’s a part of some greater Protestant communion is just that, minimizing Her.
How can we possibly state that Mother Church is a man made institution where in reality it was handed down to us directly from God via Jesus.
Apostolic succession actually means more to us RC than just a title passing.
We are all agents of the one true Church and to minimize the Church by saying it’s a part of some greater Protestant communion is just that, minimizing Her.
How can we possibly state that Mother Church is a man made institution where in reality it was handed down to us directly from God via Jesus.
Apostolic succession actually means more to us RC than just a title passing.
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HopkinsReb
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I think there is a soft form of the critique that is right, though – if your goal is to convince someone to become Catholic, simply stating “it’s the one true Church established by Christ” is begging the question. Protestant ecclesiology tends to be “right doctrine → true church,” rather than “true church → right doctrine.” It would behoove you to focus on demonstrating that the Catholic Church is the true Church, rather than simply stating it to be the case.
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GKMotley
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And how often over the years have I said “All RCs should affirm whatever the RCC requires them to affirm, at the appropriate level of theological certainty”?
That’s a rhetorical question, there. I certainly don’t know the answer. But it occurs in threads where I offer viewpoint other than what the RCC requires a RC to affirm. Which means the answer is somewhere between “a lot” and “probably more than that”.
if seeing on the screen a position other than one I hold myself was offensive, one might wonder why I started this practice, back around 1999.
That’s a rhetorical question, there. I certainly don’t know the answer. But it occurs in threads where I offer viewpoint other than what the RCC requires a RC to affirm. Which means the answer is somewhere between “a lot” and “probably more than that”.
if seeing on the screen a position other than one I hold myself was offensive, one might wonder why I started this practice, back around 1999.
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Tommy999
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Nothing against cradle Catholics because I sense their fervency for Jesus and the Catholic Church and respect them a great deal, but I generally relate more to converts who come from a similar background as mine because they understand both faith traditions from personal experience and are able to explain things (compare and contrast) in ways I can better understand.
In my dealings on CAF, Protestant converts to Catholicism generally don’t repudiate their former faith but usually show appreciation for the good things in it that they learned/experienced — but also see Catholicism as an enhancement to their Christian faith journey and see Catholicism as the “fullness of faith” and a means to making their faith more well-rounded. I can dialogue with these folks in good faith.
Some cradle Catholics understand this as well and are respectful but unfortunately there are those who, in their zeal to defend Catholicism, actually (perhaps unknowingly) push potential converts away through frequent sectarian comments that denigrate non-Catholic Christian faith traditions. For example, if a person disrespects my faith tradition to the point of saying God’s presence doesn’t even abide in my sanctuary, that person obviously doesn’t know my faith or congregation and doesn’t care to understand it so we have nothing else to discuss. However, if they treat me as a fellow Christian who could benefit from Catholicism, then we can have a dialogue and proceed from there.
In my dealings on CAF, Protestant converts to Catholicism generally don’t repudiate their former faith but usually show appreciation for the good things in it that they learned/experienced — but also see Catholicism as an enhancement to their Christian faith journey and see Catholicism as the “fullness of faith” and a means to making their faith more well-rounded. I can dialogue with these folks in good faith.
Some cradle Catholics understand this as well and are respectful but unfortunately there are those who, in their zeal to defend Catholicism, actually (perhaps unknowingly) push potential converts away through frequent sectarian comments that denigrate non-Catholic Christian faith traditions. For example, if a person disrespects my faith tradition to the point of saying God’s presence doesn’t even abide in my sanctuary, that person obviously doesn’t know my faith or congregation and doesn’t care to understand it so we have nothing else to discuss. However, if they treat me as a fellow Christian who could benefit from Catholicism, then we can have a dialogue and proceed from there.
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HopkinsReb
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There also seems to be a great deal of a sort of fideism among cradle Catholics. They have no need to be able to defend a position; they seem to think that asserting that it’s a teaching of the Church will somehow convince non-Catholics.
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Torolf
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I agree with you. I’m a convert to Catholicism and this sort of thing is really disheartening to me. I’ve seen three candidates quit RCIA in my parish do to Catholics expressing these attitudes. Luckily the RCIA director is taking steps to rectify this.
I can understand to a degree people saying that Christ isn’t physically present in other churches though even that isn’t true. The Orthodox have valid sacraments and Holy Orders and that shouldn’t be in question here. The Old Catholics, PNCC, as well as a good number of Anglicans, etc have valid though illicit sacraments according to Church teaching found in the code of canon law. Making any kind of claim that Christ isn’t present in any way or that non-Catholics somehow aren’t Christians is completely false. To make blanket statements like this does nothing but cause division and resentment which isn’t going to bring people flooding into the Church.
I can understand to a degree people saying that Christ isn’t physically present in other churches though even that isn’t true. The Orthodox have valid sacraments and Holy Orders and that shouldn’t be in question here. The Old Catholics, PNCC, as well as a good number of Anglicans, etc have valid though illicit sacraments according to Church teaching found in the code of canon law. Making any kind of claim that Christ isn’t present in any way or that non-Catholics somehow aren’t Christians is completely false. To make blanket statements like this does nothing but cause division and resentment which isn’t going to bring people flooding into the Church.
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Lenten_ashes
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Thanks, Tommy
Well, I can honestly say the mortal or “bigger” sins are fewer and far between as a Catholic. So I am pleased about that. I am able to control my thoughts better than I was as a protestant confessing directly to God. Those gosh darn thoughts get us into so much trouble lol.
I was not a big believer in the Sacraments until I converted and experienced them for myself. There are times you walk out of there feeling like you have walked on the clouds. Very tangible.
The best thing I have found about confession is that I can take anything into that booth – not just sins – anything, and ask for God’s grace. For example, I was asked to help teach RCIA. But I have a major , lifelong fear of public speaking. So I took it into the confessional and asked for help. Of course I prayed and asked the Spirit for guidance while standing in line. And not only did the priest give me excellent advice, I ended up conquering it and doing a great job, or so i was told by the team leaders. It’s another pipeline of grace the Lord provides for us. So we may as well utilize it to it’s fullest.
Well, I can honestly say the mortal or “bigger” sins are fewer and far between as a Catholic. So I am pleased about that. I am able to control my thoughts better than I was as a protestant confessing directly to God. Those gosh darn thoughts get us into so much trouble lol.
I was not a big believer in the Sacraments until I converted and experienced them for myself. There are times you walk out of there feeling like you have walked on the clouds. Very tangible.
The best thing I have found about confession is that I can take anything into that booth – not just sins – anything, and ask for God’s grace. For example, I was asked to help teach RCIA. But I have a major , lifelong fear of public speaking. So I took it into the confessional and asked for help. Of course I prayed and asked the Spirit for guidance while standing in line. And not only did the priest give me excellent advice, I ended up conquering it and doing a great job, or so i was told by the team leaders. It’s another pipeline of grace the Lord provides for us. So we may as well utilize it to it’s fullest.
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Tommy999
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May the Lord continue to bless and use yout talents and abilities to help others, Lenten_ashes. 
It reminds me of Moses, a reluctant but effective leader with God’s help.
It reminds me of Moses, a reluctant but effective leader with God’s help.
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Lenten_ashes
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Hahaha yeah, Moses telling God to “send someone else” is absolutely priceless.
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AlNg
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What did you think about the article in wikipedia : Origin of the Book of Mormon?
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AlNg
Guest
I think that is true. I recall reading a post by a Catholic who converted from Protestantism and he said that he does not and would not ever pray to Mary.
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adgloriam
Guest
Well, a part of what you said was wrong. And, I don’t think that question of yours was either polite, considerate or respectful of @(name removed by moderator). So, I’ll refrain from adding anything else…
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DisorientingSneeze
Guest
Have you seen that in real life though or only here? Audience matters. In real life, we usually know our audience better. To a fellow Catholic, asserting church teaching or if you sense they don’t know it explaining the why behind church teaching probably is enough. For a non-catholic the approach would be different.
Here on the forums our audience is both unclear and unknown. It makes tailoring the message to the audience difficult, and I think many people assume the other posters are Catholic but they may not be.
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lilypadrees
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AINg (to TOmNosser):
What did you think about the article in wikipedia : Origin of the Book of Mormon?
lilypadrees:
If you look at TOm’s profile, you’ll find he’s otherwise occupied at the moment. ahem
What did you think about the article in wikipedia : Origin of the Book of Mormon?
lilypadrees:
If you look at TOm’s profile, you’ll find he’s otherwise occupied at the moment. ahem
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