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arieh0310
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How would reading Scripture lead you to pantheism?
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forthright
Guest
My response - “To be shallow in the Bible is to cease to be Catholic.”
“A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.” Alexander Pope (1688-1744) - An Essay on Criticism
“A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.” Alexander Pope (1688-1744) - An Essay on Criticism
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mercygate
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Reformed Rob:
AND – this is an important “and” – scratch the surface, and 90% of the time you will find that the “biblical” motivation against the Church is associated with dissent on matters of moral theology, usually sex: divorce & remarriage, contraception, masturbation. Pick one.
In my experience, those who leave the Catholic Church for a “Bible” church because they “discover” the Bible have “discovered” only a few proof-texts that they have been carefully spoon-fed via a denomination that has a shallow understanding of Scripture and no understanding whatever of Catholicism.
AND – this is an important “and” – scratch the surface, and 90% of the time you will find that the “biblical” motivation against the Church is associated with dissent on matters of moral theology, usually sex: divorce & remarriage, contraception, masturbation. Pick one.
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MariaG
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:yup: It is more comfortable to be in a “bible centered” Christian Church that doesn’t blink twice at any of those things.
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Melchior
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I think your last paragraph is absurd. No offense. Most people who end up in Bible Churches (right or wrong) tend to be morally outstanding Christians. I have never met someone who has had a “born-again” experience become a moral liberal. I have only seen the opposite. If you said “mainline protestant” instead of “Bible Church” then I would agree with you. But 90% of those who go to Bible Churches do so for deeply theological reasons not because they want to live immorally. You are confusing liberal protestants with Evangelicals. One group is immoral the other has adherents who would more than likely put the average catholic to shame lifestyle wise.
Mel
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mercygate
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I get your pont Mel, and overall would concur – but in my experience, which definitely includes Bible churches, there is often dissent related to Catholic stands on sexuality.
In fairness to me, please note: I did not include cohabitation or abortion in my list because Bible Christians I have known are exemplary on these issues. But divorce and remarriage is a common corollary of these conversions in my experience, and so is dissent on the issue of contraception.
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MariaG
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Most Bible Churches I have ever gone to don’t consider contraception or masturbation to be immoral.
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mlchance
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There isn’t one. What is contradicted most often are people’s pet sins, such as contraception, and the “deep study” the Bible is used as a way to rationalize that the Church is wrong and the sin is right.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Giver
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I believe there are a number of Catholic teachings that don’t measure up to the Word of God, but I wouldn’t want you to leave the Catholic Church just because it doesn’t teach all the truth. I don’t believe there is a Christian Church that teaches the whole truth. So where do you have to go? I think we all should work very hard to get all the churches to teach the whole Word or God.
(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”
(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” No Church that I know of teaches that Christians are dead to sin.
(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”
The Church accepts a “Just war”
(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”
Not one of the Church teachings.
Usury: (Ezekiel 18:13) “_____ charges usury on loans and takes interest, then this son shall certainly not live; having committed all these appalling crimes he will have to die, and his blood be on his own head.” And Jesus raises Usury to a higher level (Luke 6:35) “Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.” God doesn’t use excessive when He talks about interest.
The Church says excessive interest; the Bible doesn’t qualify Usury this way. Think about it, excessive leaves it open to almost any amount. It all becomes relative.
Giver
(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”
(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” No Church that I know of teaches that Christians are dead to sin.
(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”
The Church accepts a “Just war”
(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”
Not one of the Church teachings.
Usury: (Ezekiel 18:13) “_____ charges usury on loans and takes interest, then this son shall certainly not live; having committed all these appalling crimes he will have to die, and his blood be on his own head.” And Jesus raises Usury to a higher level (Luke 6:35) “Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.” God doesn’t use excessive when He talks about interest.
The Church says excessive interest; the Bible doesn’t qualify Usury this way. Think about it, excessive leaves it open to almost any amount. It all becomes relative.
Giver
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forthright
Guest
Let me qualify my following comments by saying that I feel I have decent experience with a variety of Bible churches - we probably attended half a dozen different ones growing up. Like you indicated, my father chose our church based on deep theological reasons. If a church we were attending started teaching what my father viewed as heresy (and the pastor refused to change), then we were off to find a new church.
Obviously, masturbation and contraception were topics not typically covered with kids present, so I’ll stick to other Christian characteristics I learned at Bible churches. . .
No Bible church I attended believed marriage was indissoluble. All of them viewed divorce as something to avoid, but divorce and remarriage was never condemned (even though this is probably the clearest thing Jesus ever condemned). Every Bible church I attended believed that the Pastor’s interpretation of scripture was infallible. It was at Bible churches that high school kids bragged about the sexual experiences. It was at a Bible church that a deacon/elder was convicted of sexually abusing his daughter. It was at a Bible church that it was uncovered that the Pastor was having multiple affairs with women of the congregation. It was at Bible churches that pastors were fired by the congregation holding secret meetings then announcing their results to the pastor on Sunday morning. It was at Bible churches that people were ostracized if they didn’t wear the right clothes or drive the right cars. It was at Bible churches that materialism was indirectly promoted, since works of charity weren’t deemed necessary. It was a Bible church that offered a place to stay when a member lost his job, then kicked him out in the middle of winter when the pastor wanted to enlarge his office. It was at a Bible church that an associate pastor embezzled the entire church bank account and ran off with it.
You may be right that 90% of those people didn’t attend Bible churches for the specific intent that it allowed them to live immorally, but that didn’t stop them from living immorally anyway. You are right that the majority of Catholics don’t live up to what’s expected of them, but is the correct response to lower the expectations? I think not.
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Paris_Blues
Guest
Maybe it’s because one might start having their OWN interpretation. Should follow the Church, not their own. We should be following the Church’s teaching on Scripture. Remember we have the FULLNESS OF TRUTH.
That’s why you can’t find TRUTH with a billion interpretations of Scripture.
That’s why you can’t find TRUTH with a billion interpretations of Scripture.
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Philthy
Guest
Congratulations! Despite all the other talk here, you have actually gotten the thread into motion!
I guess if I had to pick a verse which appears contrary to Catholic teaching it would be, and I don’t recall the address, the verse where Jesus says in response to “What works shall we do”
And he replies that “Believe in me” or something similar…
I thought it was in John, but I cant find it and have to go…
Phil
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Philthy
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I found it. John 6:29:
"This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent."
I guess as a Catholic one could argue that this simply proves that belief is a work and therefore salvation is faith and works only faith is each.
But the point clearly seems to be that the only work required is “belief”, which seems to validate the Protestant sola fide mantra. OK, begin your rebuttal…
Phil
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MariaG
Guest
In the Bible Jesus tells that there will be those who will cry “Lord, Lord” to Him but He will not know them because they did not help Him when He was in need. (The poor, the hungry etc.) A “just war” is one with a for example like WWII. By not helping, we would be responsible for not helping our brothers in need.
Turn the other cheek is a personal admonition. Turn the other cheek for my own personal sufferings. Not turn the other cheek on my brothers suffering. That would be walking past those in need.
I’ll have to get back to you on the rest. Later this afternoon or this evening hopefully. Or maybe others have already answered as I write this or soon will
Be back soon.
God Bless,
Maria
I truly have to go and don’t have time to do it, but maybe a new thread with links to it should be started for each separate point? Phil?
God Bless,
Maria
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allischalmers
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Roman 3:23 For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Does that not include Mary the mother of Jesus.
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Melchior
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I cannot argue with your experience.
I have seen both sides in my several evangelical affiliations. But mostly the conservative side.
Mel
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Melchior
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Has the latter come up that often? I have seen non-abortafacient contraception debated but I have never heard of masturbation being condoned in any church I have been a member of. The rare times it came up it was clearly taught to be sinful because it involves lust.
Mel
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Anglican77
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The problem is that there are so many different Bible, non-denom, etc type churches that it’s hard to make blanket statements about them because each seem to teach something different!
As to the original question of the thread, speaking as a non-Catholic, I have always questioned the Church’s stance on whether or not Mary had other children besides Jesus.
It may even be said that it was prophesized that Mary had other children:
Here are more mentions of brothers:
Here it may be argued that Jesus corrects them to include all of those who do the will of God, however there must be some reason that they called them brothers.
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Melchior
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Well this proves that Catholics and Evangelicals often don’t live by their principles.
As for the divorce thing I think that varies. My Assemblies of God Pastor I had when I was a teen had a stong, if not stronger stance against divorce than the Roman Catholic Church. He would not marry anyone who was diroced for any reason nor allow it to take place in our church. No annulments. Nada. He was unmovable and I respected him for it.
My Bible Church Pastor (It was Grace Bible Church) basically a Reformed Baptist Chuch taught that divorce and remarriage were forbidden but allowed for grace for the victims of adultery/fornication - as Jesus did (it’s in there folks). And some take Paul’s teaching on abandonment to indicate a breaking of the marriage covenant therefore freeing the victim to remarry. I am not saying I agree but there is a reasonable biblical case that can be made. And for those who rely on scripture alone - that is what their consciences are bound by. So it varies from church to church.
If John Kerry can get an annulment after two children and decades of marriage I cannot see where the Catholic Church currently has the moral high ground on remarriage.
Mel
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mattrue
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as Catholics we are not about scripture but also tradition. also as Catholics its good to read the Bible everyday, or spend sometime in church or go to mass, climb that mountain of God.
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