To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

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Jozefo said:
Go back to what I said before. You can find it, you’re so smart. This time read for comprehension.
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You are starting to get frustrated. Please take a step back.

It would be a shame for you to be banned, for it is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable, charitable Catholics to learn the truths of the faith.

If you can post with civility and charity, then you have nothing to fear. 👍
 
John_Q_Sinner said:
Everyone in Heaven is Catholic for only the Truth can be in Heaven. Yet every Catholic did not enter the Church the same way. Some Catholics in Heaven were a part of the Church officially, while others were part of the Church by desire.
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Absolutely correct!!

:clapping:
 
PRmerger said:
You are starting to get frustrated. Please take a step back.

It would be a shame for you to be banned, for it is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable, charitable Catholics to learn the truths of the faith.

If you can post with civility and charity, then you have nothing to fear. 👍
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I’m sorry, I’m no longer posting to you, nor will I be reading you. Let them ban me.
 
Randy_Carson said:
First, it is the logical conclusion from the premises given.

Second, I might review Dominus Iesus for starters.

But look, the question has never really been about membership but rather about what type of membership one has.
  1. It is normatively necessary to be in formal communion with the Catholic Church. (This is what Jesus intended when He established Peter as head of the Church.)
  2. It is not absolutely necessary to be in formal communion with the Catholic Church. (The Church has acknowledged this many times.)
  3. It is absolutely necessary to be in some communion with the Catholic Church. (Outside the Church, there is no salvation.)
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It is not absolutely correct that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The Church does not teach this.
 
jmcrae said:
And don’t take a job where you need to be good at math.
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Indeed. I think the only job that might be available to a person who professes that 8 x 8 is 16 would be an artist perhaps? Or maybe a poet. Or fiction writer.

But I can’t imagine any other job to which failure would not be guaranteed when one cannot accept math facts as truths but is permitted to believe whatever she wishes.
 
Jozefo said:
I’m sorry, I’m no longer posting to you, nor will I be reading you. Let them ban me.
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You think the world of your daughter and that’s wonderful and commendable . But it wasn’t a personal attack by PR.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Accepted, how does for example following the rule that EXR=I equate to blind obedience? There’s an underlying premise of truth. Now, should we bring this back to the paradigm of scripture isn’t this the same as presented by the Church?
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It’s germaine to the conversation because it began when I asserted Christian freedom. Apparently it upset a few people enough to try and reduce it to squares and circles and kindergardners.

I cited Genesis 1: 26 And CCC 1782 to affirm the Church’s teaching about the right of conscience and personal autonomy.

In light of all this, I’m not sure what you’re asking.
 
GaryTaylor said:
You think the world of your daughter and that’s wonderful and commendable .
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Indeed.
But it wasn’t a personal attack by PR.
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Of course she knows that. I think she’s just feeling frustrated with herself because she has backed herself into a corner with her assertion that she’s just fine with her daughter saying that 8 x 8 = 16.

Making it personal is just a facile diversion that no one is falling for.
 
PRmerger said:
Indeed. I think the only job that might be available to a person who professes that 8 x 8 is 16 would be an artist perhaps? Or maybe a poet. Or fiction writer.

But I can’t imagine any other job to which failure would not be guaranteed when one cannot accept math facts as truths but is permitted to believe whatever she wishes.
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And I would add that even the artist, poet and fiction writer cannot survive, at least if she wants to get a fair paycheck, if she can’t conform to the basic math rules.
 
PRmerger said:
The Church does indeed teach this, Bergon.
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GaryTaylor said:
Show me what your referring to in Church teaching.
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In the third century some Christian groups wanted to be outside the Church. St Cyprian, one of the Fathers of the Church, said a Christian cannot be saved without the Church.

The Second Vatican Council in Lumen Gentium 14: “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved”. (Emphasis mine)

The Church’s teaching is: one who is aware of the presence of revelation is obliged by his conscience to belong publicly and, not only in his conscience, in his heart, to this Catholic Church by remaining in communion with the Pope and those bishops in communion with him.

The Church also teaches: if one is inculpably ignorant of this truth they are not necessarily condemned for that reason. We must hope that those who do not belong to the Church through no fault of their own, but who follow the dictates of their God-given conscience, will be saved by Jesus Christ whom they do not yet know.

However, if a Catholic says today: “I am going to put myself outside the Church,” we would have to respond that without the Church, that person is in danger of losing salvation.

There is no salvation outside the Church if you’re aware of revelation and choose to reject the Church. If one has no knowledge of Christ and revelation being outside the Church doesn’t deny you salvation.

Consequently, it is not an absolute Church teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
 
Bergon said:
In the third century some Christian groups wanted to be outside the Church. St Cyprian, one of the Fathers of the Church, said a Christian cannot be saved without the Church.

The Second Vatican Council in Lumen Gentium 14: “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved”. (Emphasis mine)

The Church’s teaching is: one who is aware of the presence of revelation is obliged by his conscience to belong publicly and, not only in his conscience, in his heart, to this Catholic Church by remaining in communion with the Pope and those bishops in communion with him.

The Church also teaches: if one is inculpably ignorant of this truth they are not necessarily condemned for that reason. We must hope that those who do not belong to the Church through no fault of their own, but who follow the dictates of their God-given conscience, will be saved by Jesus Christ whom they do not yet know.

However, if a Catholic says today: “I am going to put myself outside the Church,” we would have to respond that without the Church, that person is in danger of losing salvation.

There is no salvation outside the Church if you’re aware of revelation and choose to reject the Church. If one has no knowledge of Christ and revelation being outside the Church doesn’t deny you salvation.

Consequently, it is not an absolute Church teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
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I agree with everything you say except for your last sentence.

Are you of the position that it is also not an absolute church teaching that there is no salvation outside of Christ?
 
PRmerger said:
Let’s start over then.

And let’s change it to a son. Let’s make it more hypothetical, assuming you don’t have a son.

If your son came home with an F on his math test, would you make him learn his math facts?

Or would you tell him, “Son, if you want to put down that 8 x 8 is 16, then that is fine. 8 x 8 can be whatever you want it to be, if that’s what you conclude.”
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I think we’ve seen more than enough math problems now and lists of positions we wouldn’t want the posters daughter in yet you’ve never met her.
 
Yes. It’s all hypothetical. Not personal.

No one will be able to make it through med school believing 8x8=16.
 
GaryTaylor said:
You think the world of your daughter and that’s wonderful and commendable . But it wasn’t a personal attack by PR.
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There’s only so much a poster can do with long lists of what professions said daughter
shouldn’t be in with the math issues etc; What if you had a son or a daughter that came hope with this or that an F in this or that…
Mary.
 
PRmerger said:
And I would add that even the artist, poet and fiction writer cannot survive, at least if she wants to get a fair paycheck, if she can’t conform to the basic math rules.
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When did the topic turn into a poster’s daughter and post after post of what she CAN’T do?
Geez.
Mary.
 
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