To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

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MaryT777 said:
There’s only so much a poster can do with long lists of what professions said daughter
shouldn’t be in with the math issues etc; What if you had a son or a daughter that came hope with this or that an F in this or that…
Mary.
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Yes. It’s all hypothetical. Not personal.

No one will enter med school if she believes 8x8=16.
 
PRmerger said:
Are you of the position that it is also not an absolute church teaching that there is no salvation outside of Christ?
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No, I am not saying that. It is not the same thing as saying there is no salvation outside the Church. Salvation comes from Christ. Therefore, we all depend on Christ for salvation. However, Christ is not confined to giving salvation only to those in the Catholic Church.

If a man lives in an tropical rainforest in West Africa and he’s has never heard of Christ, he knows nothing of Revelation, he knows not of the Catholic Church he has no culpability for not believing in Christ or being a member of the Catholic Church. The Church teaches that he is not beyond salvation. Can you please demonstrate where the Church teaches that he is beyond salvation?

If tomorrow I said right I’m leaving the Catholic Church and rejecting everything it teaches I put myself at risk of being denied salvation. That is because I know of Christ, Revelation and the Church. I have the right to my own conscience and free will. I can choose to be outside the Church but I wouldn’t be saved because I know what I’m rejecting.

The man in Africa described above isn’t rejecting Christ, Revelation or the Church. He can’t reject what he doesn’t know.

The Church teaches there is no salvation outside the Church for those who know of Christ, Revelation and the Church and who consciously rejects the Church. It doesn’t teach that there’s no salvation for those outside the Church who haven’t consciously rejected something they don’t know about.
 
MaryT777 said:
When did the topic turn into a poster’s daughter and post after post of what she CAN’T do?
Geez.
Mary.
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When a poster asserted that she would be fine with her daughter believing a false idea about basic math.

But, of course, it’s not about her daughter. It’s a coincidence that she really has a daughter and the discussion would have been the same even if she had no child.
 
Bergon said:
there is no salvation outside the Church. Salvation comes from Christ. Therefore, we all depend on Christ for salvation. However, Christ is not confined to giving salvation only to those in the Catholic Church…
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OK, but lets read below.
Bergon said:
If a man lives in an tropical rainforest in West Africa and he’s has never heard of Christ, he knows nothing of Revelation, he knows not of the Catholic Church he has no culpability for not believing in Christ or being a member of the Catholic Church. The Church teaches that he is not beyond salvation. Can you please demonstrate where the Church teaches that he is beyond salvation?.
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If he’s not outside the Church in the spiritual sense, only physical, then he’s not outside the Church.
Bergon said:
If tomorrow I said right I’m leaving the Catholic Church and rejecting everything it teaches I put myself at risk of being denied salvation. That is because I know of Christ, Revelation and the Church. I have the right to my own conscience and free will. I can choose to be outside the Church but I wouldn’t be saved because I know what I’m rejecting…
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If you are understanding of what is indeed necessary for salvation, yes.
Bergon said:
The man in Africa described above isn’t rejecting Christ, Revelation or the Church. He can’t reject what he doesn’t know…
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Right
Bergon said:
The Church teaches there is no salvation outside the Church for those who know of Christ, Revelation and the Church and who consciously rejects the Church. It doesn’t teach that there’s no salvation for those outside the Church who haven’t consciously rejected something they don’t know about.
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Right, just a slight adjustment. 🙂
 
Bergon said:
In the third century some Christian groups wanted to be outside the Church. St Cyprian, one of the Fathers of the Church, said a Christian cannot be saved without the Church.

The Second Vatican Council in Lumen Gentium 14: “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved”. (Emphasis mine)

The Church’s teaching is: one who is aware of the presence of revelation is obliged by his conscience to belong publicly and, not only in his conscience, in his heart, to this Catholic Church by remaining in communion with the Pope and those bishops in communion with him.

The Church also teaches: if one is inculpably ignorant of this truth they are not necessarily condemned for that reason. We must hope that those who do not belong to the Church through no fault of their own, but who follow the dictates of their God-given conscience, will be saved by Jesus Christ whom they do not yet know.

However, if a Catholic says today: “I am going to put myself outside the Church,” we would have to respond that without the Church, that person is in danger of losing salvation.

There is no salvation outside the Church if you’re aware of revelation and choose to reject the Church. If one has no knowledge of Christ and revelation being outside the Church doesn’t deny you salvation.

Consequently, it is not an absolute Church teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
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Yes to all that but the last sentence.
If one is saved, they are in Communion with the Church Christ founded, the Catholic Church, by definition. It is easy to confuse earthly membership in the Church with salvation.
There is no other way to salvation than through the Church, and somehow Christ finds a way to bring someone who was not baptized Catholic home to his Church. And think about it… who of us Catholics merit salvation of our own merit, without the saving action of Jesus Christ? We have the helps of the Church, it is “easier” for us, but we depend on Christ’s mysterious saving action.
 
Bergon said:
No, I am not saying that. It is not the same thing as saying there is no salvation outside the Church. Salvation comes from Christ. Therefore, we all depend on Christ for salvation. However, Christ is not confined to giving salvation only to those in the Catholic Church.
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There is a parallel that’s going on here, Bergon.

-Outside of Christ there is no salvation.
-Outside of the Church there is no salvation…for the Church is the Body of Christ, and without a Body, one cannot have the Head.

And it appears you don’t have a problem with the first statement, but do have a problem with the second.

But it seems inconsistent to me that you can say: it is an absolute teaching that without Christ there is no salvation…but not agree that it’s also an absolute teaching that without the Church there is no salvation.
If a man lives in an tropical rainforest in West Africa and he’s has never heard of Christ, he knows nothing of Revelation, he knows not of the Catholic Church he has no culpability for not believing in Christ or being a member of the Catholic Church. The Church teaches that he is not beyond salvation**. Can you please demonstrate where the Church teaches that he is beyond salvation?**
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Why would I do that? I have never posited that he is beyond salvation. In fact, I have proclaimed loudly and proudly that he may indeed achieve salvation.
If tomorrow I said right I’m leaving the Catholic Church and rejecting everything it teaches I put myself at risk of being denied salvation. That is because I know of Christ, Revelation and the Church. I have the right to my own conscience and free will. I can choose to be outside the Church but I wouldn’t be saved because I know what I’m rejecting.
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Indeed.
The man in Africa described above isn’t rejecting Christ, Revelation or the Church. He can’t reject what he doesn’t know.
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'zactly.
The Church teaches there is no salvation outside the Church for those who know of Christ, Revelation and the Church and who consciously rejects the Church. It doesn’t teach that there’s no salvation for those outside the Church who haven’t consciously rejected something they don’t know about.
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You are absolutely right.

And if these people who are invincibly ignorant of Christ and His Church are in heaven, they can’t be there outside of Christ, right? It is only through Christ that they are saved.
 
Lotharson said:
A good God won’t send someone to hell due to her not belonging to the right religion.

Lothars Sohn - Lothar’s son
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com
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That would depend on the circumstances as to why said person is in the wrong religion or why said person is still a part of a heretical group/theology which is not joined to the True Church within the True Religion.

Christ speaks plainly:

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:17 [/BIBLEDRB]

Notice Christ said Church, not Churches. There is One, Visible, Universal, and Holy Church which has the authority to settle issues of Faith and Morals. Notice Christ considers these people who do not listen to this Church, His Church, then they are like the heathen and the publican. Why such harsh terms? Well its because Christ’s ambassadors, His Bishops and priests, speak for Him…

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 10:16 [/BIBLEDRB]

Why? Because they have been given authority by Christ Himself!

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 10:19 [/BIBLEDRB]

And because…

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 11:23 [/BIBLEDRB]

Christ is love and if you know the Truth you must love the Truth 100%! Any less than 100% is not true love and is therefore a love God want’s no part of. Lust like no self respecting Husband or Wife would accept 80% of their spouses love as true love. Anyone who knows the truth but does not follow it and submit to it are anti-Christ, anti-Father, and anti-Holy Spirit.

Remember one of the very reasons for why God is Good is because He is Just!

God Bless.
 
I believe that God is perfectly good.

As a consequence, He will grant eternal life to everyone who does not reject His offer. This seems to be completely logic.

Lovely greetings from Germany
Liebe Grüße aus Deutschland

Lothars Sohn - Lothar’s son
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com
 
Jozefo said:
No, that is factually incorrect. I get your point, and agree so long as there is mutual respect in a group. But I can get along just fine without other people.
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Really? No one to pump water into your home for the sinks and bathtubs? You can live without water?

No one to grow or produce various kinds of food for you to eat? You can live without food?

No one to build the house that you live in? You can live without shelter?

No one to weave the cloth and sew the clothes that you wear? You can live without clothes?

🤷
 
Lotharson said:
I believe that God is perfectly good.

As a consequence, He will grant eternal life to everyone who does not reject His offer. This seems to be completely logic.

Lovely greetings from Germany
Liebe Grüße aus Deutschland

Lothars Sohn - Lothar’s son
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com
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And what about the Christian who has been taught and believes that once he has said the sinner’s prayer he is saved, and then goes on to commit adultery or fornication or some other grave sin and feels no compulsion to confess or repent, for he is already saved. Will he receive eternal life?

What we believe does matter.
 
PRmerger said:
Indeed. I think the only job that might be available to a person who professes that 8 x 8 is 16 would be an artist perhaps? Or maybe a poet. Or fiction writer.
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I’m an artist. If I thought that 8x8=16, I’d have an awful time making frames for my paintings, and spend a lot of time wondering why my 16 inch frame doesn’t fit my 61 inch painting. 🤷
 
jmcrae said:
I’m an artist. If I thought that 8x8=16, I’d have an awful time making frames for my paintings, and spend a lot of time wondering why my 16 inch frame doesn’t fit my 61 inch painting. 🤷
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Yep–so pretty much no one will be able to succeed in his/her profession if one wants to believe what she wants regarding math facts.

Or, really, regarding any truth.
 
PRmerger said:
Yep–so pretty much no one will be able to succeed in his/her profession if one wants to believe what she wants regarding math facts.

Or, really, regarding any truth.
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Can anyone succeed without knowing math facts in any profession; just in case the poster cares what profession might suit dear daughter.
:rolleyes:
 
MaryT777 said:
Can anyone succeed without knowing math facts in any profession; just in case the poster cares what profession might suit dear daughter.
:rolleyes:
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Exactly!

For anyone to say that she would allow her daughter to believe that 8 x 8 is 16 is a recipe for failure in *any *profession.
 
I have decided to not post on this thread any more; in fact, I’m also unsubscribing from it. It is not pleasant when people keep changing what they are saying and twisting what you say. I’m quite happy to leave the discussion because I’m comfortable with what I believe. I have based what I have posted on the published words of a Cardinal of the Holy Roman See. I hope no one posts the following, I have already anticipated it: I must’ve misunderstood the cardinal. Happy discussion:)
 
Bergon said:
I have decided to not post on this thread any more; in fact, I’m also unsubscribing from it. It is not pleasant when people keep changing what they are saying and twisting what you say. I’m quite happy to leave the discussion because I’m comfortable with what I believe. I have based what I have posted on the published words of a Cardinal of the Holy Roman See. I hope no one posts the following, I have already anticipated it: I must’ve misunderstood the cardinal. Happy discussion:)
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I am saddened that you feel you cannot participate in a dialogue here, esp. when you are leaving on such nebulous terms.
 
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