To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[PRmerger]

the Body of Christ consists of all Christains -not just one denomination-Even the Catholic Church states their is salvation outside of the Church-

A devout Budhist who practices Charity -lives an honorable life -no heaven -absurd (then again they believe in r:thumbsup:eincarnation)

I think Protestants may be more likely to support no salvation without faith in Jesus than Catholics-

Which Christians, cmodrmac? The Christians who believe that baptism is an ordinance? OR the Christians who proclaim that it is a sacrament? The Christians who say divorce and re-marriage is adultery? Or the Christians who say, “We will marry you no matter how many times you’ve been married before!”? The Christians who say that God is love? Or the Christians who say God hates some types of people?

 

[bzkoss236]

In her defense HERE are some interesting thoughts from the Church Fathers about that. Sounds like they tend toward universalism, actually…

Some of those quotes seem to be talking about people outside the Church and not within. As if they accept scripture, but like is warned about in scripture, they twist it to their own destruction.

Some of the others could only support universalism if you misunderstand their context, such as of that which would be understood correctly by the Catholic Church, which maintains the same beliefs as the early Church. If you read entire documents of the early Church Fathers, they point to the Catholic Church.

Taking the last quote about Christ being savior of all. We don’t deny that. Christ is savior of all, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is saved. Anyone who is saved is saved by Christ because they followed Him (most imperfectly so).

 

[MJCamp]

Taking the last quote about Christ being savior of all. We don’t deny that. Christ is savior of all, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is saved. Anyone who is saved is saved by Christ because they followed Him (most imperfectly so).

Yep. And the Catholic Church gives us all the tools to imitate Christ. The graces we receive through the sacraments are not available to protestants. Therefore who really knows if stained with a mortal sin, they are really forgiven without absolution from a priest? Guess they find out after death. I pray the Lord shows them Mercy and they are saved through purgatory but we can’t be sure. This is why it is important to be Catholic, because the Church holds the truth which others have pointed out and scripture supports.

 

[sennincatholic]

Submitting to the teachings of the church and being a member of the catholic church all boils down to being humble and putting your trust in something bigger than you,something u may never fully understand till death.
John 6:66 points out the reason for the very first schism in the church.
the apostles remained with Jesus after John 6:66 not because they understood Jesus’ words but its because they were humble enough to trust Him and his words to be truth and thats what all christians are called to do;to trust in the Church Christ founded as the pillar of truth and humbly submit to the authority of this Church under the Pope(catholic church).

 

[Alizarin]

Happily, both of your questions are answered here:

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3447

I don’t see how it answered them at all. if anything it raises more questions.

For example, first he quotes Pope Boniface VIII, “Now, therefore, we declare, say, define, and pronounce that for every human creature it is altogether necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff.” Okay, no two ways about it; you must be a Roman Catholic to be saved.

But then he qoutes Vatican II – “…the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it”. This seems to say a baptism will suffice (Protestants are good to go) and sets up the emergency exit called invincible ignorance, which is a nice escape route for the rest of the world.

Then he backs up to the 1950s for a moment and to Pope Pius XII, "who admitted the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics, [and] lamented that some Catholic theologians had ‘an exclusivist view of salvation’..

But after all of that, Akin himself states that to be a Catholic one must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as Boniface VII taught, but Pius XII and Vatican II denied.

 

[504Katrin]

If only Catholics go to heaven how comes that Moses and Eliah appeared and spoke to Jesus as stated in Matthew, chapter 17?

 

[Randy_Carson]

If only Catholics go to heaven how comes that Moses and Eliah appeared and spoke to Jesus as stated in Matthew, chapter 17?

I didn’t say that only Catholics GO to heaven. I said that everyone in heaven IS Catholic.

Obviously, at some point, the non-Catholics get “the talk”.

 

[cerad2]

No, but Jesus is the builder of the Church which became known as the “Catholic Church” before the end of the first century. (cf. Mt 16:18)

All others are spin-offs from there.

So you agree that you don’t have to be catholic to get to heaven. All it takes is one case to disprove a theory. Plus, it’s reasonable to assume that where there is one loop hole there are probably others. I’m guessing that Adam, Noah, Moses etc have also slipped in.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So you agree that you don’t have to be catholic to get to heaven. All it takes is one case to disprove a theory. Plus, it’s reasonable to assume that where there is one loop hole there are probably others. I’m guessing that Adam, Noah, Moses etc have also slipped in.

No, “Catholic” is the title that Jesus’ followers gave to themselves beginning at Antioch.

Kinda like they started calling themselves “Christians” - also at Antioch.

Since Jesus is not a follower of Himself, he wouldn’t be called a “Christian” or a “Catholic”.

However, you can bet that Adam, Noah, and Moses among many others are definitely followers of Christ even though He did for them long after they died themselves.

 

[Alizarin]

However, you can bet that Adam, Noah, and Moses among many others are definitely followers of Christ even though He did for them long after they died themselves.

And Moses was Jewish, and the other two were – well, whatever it was before there was Moses, the Law, and Judaism… None were baptized members of the Catholic Church, though.

No one has yet been able to answer the question: “Why bother converting when the Church itself states salvation can exist outside of it?”

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Why bother converting when the Church itself states salvation can exist outside of it?”

Church doesn’t state this, its state’s there is no salvation outside the Church. This has been discussed already.

catholicism.about.com/b/2013/04/23/pope-francis-it-is-not-possible-to-find-jesus-outside-the-church.htm

“it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The great Paul VI said: “Wanting to live with Jesus without the Church, following Jesus outside of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church is an absurd dichotomy.” And the Mother Church that gives us Jesus gives us our identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging. Identity means belonging. This belonging to the Church is beautiful.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

And Moses was Jewish, and the other two were – well, whatever it was before there was Moses, the Law, and Judaism… None were baptized members of the Catholic Church, though.

How do you know what they embraced once Jesus entered heaven following the Ascension? Akin wrote:
Trent teaches that although not all the sacraments are necessary for salvation, the sacraments in general are necessary. Without them or the desire of them men cannot obtain the grace of justification, but with them or the desire of them men can be justified. The sacrament through which we initially receive justification is baptism. But since the canon teaches that we can be justified with the desire of the sacraments rather than the sacraments themselves, we can be justified with the desire for baptism rather than baptism itself.

Having seen what Jesus accomplished upon the cross, I bet they wouldd desire baptism into Christ. Whether or not they have been physically baptized in heaven is unknown, of course.

No one has yet been able to answer the question: “Why bother converting when the Church itself states salvation can exist outside of it?”

Is that what the Church says? I may have missed it; please provide a specific reference.

Akin wrote:

Understanding this distinction between perfect and imperfect communion with the Church is essential to understanding the necessity of being a Catholic. It is an absolute necessity – no exceptions at all – to be joined to the Church in some manner, at least through the virtues of faith, hope, and charity. However, it is only normatively necessary to be fully incorporated into or in perfect communion with the Catholic Church. There are exceptions to that requirement, as the Council of Trent taught (see below), though it is still a normative necessary.

And

When it comes to the question of being a Catholic, that is both a necessity of precept and a necessity of means. It is a necessity of precept because God commands it, for “the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ,” Lumen Gentium 14 (CCC 846). It is a necessity of means because the Catholic Church is the sacrament of salvation for mankind, containing all the means of grace. “As sacrament, the Church is Christ’s instrument. ‘She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all,’ ‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ by which Christ is ‘at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God’s love for men’” (CCC 776, citing Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium 9:2, 48:2, and Gaudiam et Spes 45:1).

+++

Necessity of means is the key to your question. Through the sacraments, God has provided a means of receiving saving Grace.

Sure, you can remain outside the walls and face the enemy alone, or you can come in and have a good meal by the fire.

Can you make it on your own? Maybe. But why would anyone take the chance when a safer alternative has been provided?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Church doesn’t state this, its state’s there is no salvation outside the Church. This has been discussed already.

catholicism.about.com/b/2013/04/23/pope-francis-it-is-not-possible-to-find-jesus-outside-the-church.htm

“it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The great Paul VI said: “Wanting to live with Jesus without the Church, following Jesus outside of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church is an absurd dichotomy.” And the Mother Church that gives us Jesus gives us our identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging. Identity means belonging. This belonging to the Church is beautiful.”

“If one is a Christian at all, one is in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that ‘outside the Church, there is no salvation.’ … To talk about salvation “outside the Church” is like talking about swimming outside the water.” – Mark Shea

 

[PRmerger]

No one has yet been able to answer the question: “Why bother converting when the Church itself states salvation can exist outside of it?”

Because it’s true. The CC is the Church that Christ established, and any other church is not.

We believe something because it’s true. Not because it makes us happy or good, or because we can be possibly saved without an actual membership in a parish.

 

[MJCamp]

If only Catholics go to heaven how comes that Moses and Eliah appeared and spoke to Jesus as stated in Matthew, chapter 17?

Let’s face it, the purpose of Jesus taking flesh was to bring Christianity which superceeds the old law and open the gates of heaven for mankind. Was Elijah and Moses in heaven? Or a state of Heaven? Were they there to communicate for the Abode and inform Jesus of the Father’s plan or vice versa? It could be that Jesus was communicating to Moses and Elijah that the time is near and he would soon be coming for them. No ordinary man can duplicate God’s chosen prophets that were used to ready the coming of His Son. If they were in Heaven, God could certainly make an exception for His chosen prophets. But after the transfiguration Jesus prophesied his death when his Apostles couldn’t make sense of what He was alluding to. Jesus had make amends for Adam & Eve’s disobedience by offering himself in turn opening the Gates of all mankind who had perished since the fall of man up to the Ascension. To actually use this instance in Matthew, chapt. 17 actually reinforces the idea of praying to the deceased which Jesus does here.

 

[PRmerger]

But after all of that, Akin himself states that to be a Catholic one must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as Boniface VII taught, but Pius XII and Vatican II denied.

No, Alizarin. Popes PXII and VII did not deny what Pope Boniface taught.

Every single person is subject to the Roman pontiff. Just like every single person is subject to Christ.

People may not accept this “subjection”, or deny it, or even be in rebellion of it, but they remain subject to the Roman pontiff, in whose chair sits the vicar of Christ, whether they acknowledge it or not.

 

[cerad2]

Since Jesus is not a follower of Himself, he wouldn’t be called a “Christian” or a “Catholic”.

So not only do you not need to be a Catholic or even a Christian, you don’t even need to be a follower of Jesus. The scope seems to be getting wider and wider. Looks like even Gandhi might qualify.

 

[PRmerger]

So not only do you not need to be a Catholic or even a Christian, you don’t even need to be a follower of Jesus. The scope seems to be getting wider and wider. Looks like even Gandhi might qualify.

Please do not twist words here and come to ridiculous conclusions, or you will be reported, cerad.

What you are doing is like a child being told, “You are not allowed to eat sweets before dinner” and the child saying, “So you do not care if I go into your purse and steal all your money. Great!”

 

[Alizarin]

Church doesn’t state this, its state’s there is no salvation outside the Church. This has been discussed already.

Yes, in this thread, on page 7 And the Church has stated:

Vatican II – “…the Church which men enter through baptism *(baptism is enough, in other words) *as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” (Invincible ignorance means non-Christians have a good chance)

Pope Pius XII, "who admitted the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics, [and] lamented that some Catholic theologians had ‘an exclusivist view of salvation’…

Both quotes were taken from the Jimmy Akin article linked to by Randy.

So to sum it up: Church teaching states you can find salvation outside of the Church. So why join the Catholic Church?

 

[Alizarin]

Please do not twist words here and come to ridiculous conclusions, or you will be reported, cerad.

Nothing encourages honest conversation like threats of being reported…