To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

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Yes, in this thread, on page 7 🙂 And the Church has stated:

Vatican II – “…the Church which men enter through baptism *(baptism is enough, in other words) *as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” (Invincible ignorance means non-Christians have a good chance)

Pope Pius XII, "who admitted the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics, [and] lamented that some Catholic theologians had ‘an exclusivist view of salvation’…

Both quotes were taken from the Jimmy Akin article linked to by Randy.

So to sum it up: Church teaching states you can find salvation outside of the Church. So why join the Catholic Church?
Answered in post #110.
 
Please do not twist words here and come to ridiculous conclusions, or you will be reported, cerad.

What you are doing is like a child being told, “You are not allowed to eat sweets before dinner” and the child saying, “So you do not care if I go into your purse and steal all your money. Great!”
What exactly do you think I am twisting? Feel free to report me. I have reached the conclusion that it’s impossible to have a discussion on any religious topic without offending someone.
 
Nothing encourages honest conversation like threats of being reported…
I think PR’s point is that there was no “honest conversation” taking place.

Frankly, I’m not sure your posts are from a genuine desire to learn or discuss as much as they are simply meant to be argumentative.
 
No, Alizarin. Popes PXII and VII did not deny what Pope Boniface taught.

Every single person is subject to the Roman pontiff. Just like every single person is subject to Christ.

People may not accept this “subjection”, or deny it, or even be in rebellion of it, but they remain subject to the Roman pontiff, in whose chair sits the vicar of Christ, whether they acknowledge it or not.
First of all that makes no sense except in the context of a dictator, and I think the Pope would take issue with that comparison. Second of all, if that was true, then there is absolutely no point in formal conversion, is there?
 
What exactly do you think I am twisting? Feel free to report me. I have reached the conclusion that it’s impossible to have a discussion on any religious topic without offending someone.
Jesus Christ has followers who were first called “Christians” at Antioch where they also began to refer to themselves as members of the “Catholic Church” before the end of the first century.

Now, Jesus is not a follower; He is the head. He is not a “Christian”; He is the Christ.
 
First of all that makes no sense except in the context of a dictator, and I think the Pope would take issue with that comparison.
Of course, he would take issue with it. He would correct your error. We are subject to many leaders. Why do you feel that only the negative connotation of a dictatorship is the only one relevant to the head of the Church who serves Jesus and all of us?
Second of all, if that was true, then there is absolutely no point in formal conversion, is there?
Answered in post #110.
 
I think PR’s point is that there was no “honest conversation” taking place.
And my point is that threats of reporting for perceived misconduct just discourages us non-Catholics who hang out in the non-Catholic section from contributing, lest someone takes something the wrong way.
Frankly, I’m not sure your posts are from a genuine desire to learn or discuss as much as they are simply meant to be argumentative.
Maybe I think the same thing about yours? Why come to the non-Catholic section when you know you’re going to get an opposing view? 🤷
 
First of all that makes no sense except in the context of a dictator, and I think the Pope would take issue with that comparison
The binding force is love, give/receive relationship in correct understanding, he is servant in the strictest sense of the word.
 
Maybe I think the same thing about yours? Why come to the non-Catholic section when you know you’re going to get an opposing view? 🤷
Oh, I dunno…maybe to make the case for Catholicism just as Paul went to the synagogues to present the gospel of Jesus Christ?

😛
 
Oh, I dunno…maybe to make the case for Catholicism just as Paul went to the synagogues to present the gospel of Jesus Christ?

😛
Did Paul threaten to report the Jews to the authorities for being “argumentative”? I don’t think that’s how he won converts…Jesus didn’t do that either, did He?
 
Wow… talk about twisting my words…
Hardly.

In response to a post on being subject to the Roman Pontiff, you wrote:
that makes no sense except in the context of a dictator
If you meant something other than, “only dictators expect people to be subject to them”, then I am interested to learn exactly what you did mean.
 
Did Paul threaten to report the Jews to the authorities for being “argumentative”? I don’t think that’s how he won converts…Jesus didn’t do that either, did He?
I suspect that Paul wished the forums he spoke in were better moderated on more than one occasion. 😛
 
How do you know what they embraced once Jesus entered heaven following the Ascension?
Protestants and Orthodox embrace Jesus, too, right? Formal membership is what we were talking about though.
Is that what the Church says? I may have missed it; please provide a specific reference.
From the article you posted yourself: Pope Pius XII, "who admitted the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics, [and] lamented that some Catholic theologians had ‘an exclusivist view of salvation’…
 
Hardly.

In response to a post on being subject to the Roman Pontiff, you wrote:

If you meant something other than, “only dictators expect people to be subject to them”, then I am interested to learn exactly what you did mean.
I did NOT write that as you quoted. Go look at the original again, and remember what I was replying to.

I wrote, “First of all that makes no sense except in the context of a dictator, and I think the Pope would take issue with that comparison.” If anything, I defended the Pope, who I happen to like and respect.

What you did just there was quote me out of context in a way that made me look hateful. I don’t appreciate that.
 
Jesus Christ has followers who were first called “Christians” at Antioch where they also began to refer to themselves as members of the “Catholic Church” before the end of the first century.

Now, Jesus is not a follower; He is the head. He is not a “Christian”; He is the Christ.
Premise: Jesus was a person
Premise: Jesus is in heaven
Premise: Jesus was not a christian
Premise: Jesus was not a catholic
Premise: Jesus was not a follower of Jesus

The premises are not mine. Three of them are direct quotes from what you posted. The conclusion is inevitable. Remove any of the premises or add loopholes to them and I’ll revise the conclusion.

Just a reminder, the original question was: To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic
 
Premise: Jesus was a person
Premise: Jesus is in heaven
Premise: Jesus was not a christian
Premise: Jesus was not a catholic
Premise: Jesus was not a follower of Jesus

The premises are not mine. Three of them are direct quotes from what you posted. The conclusion is inevitable. Remove any of the premises or add loopholes to them and I’ll revise the conclusion.

Just a reminder, the original question was: To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic
You have to add two more to that list; again, lifted from earlier convo:

Premise: All are subject to the Roman Pontiff whether they consciously choose to be or not.
Premise: All baptized persons are technically Catholic, regardless of the denomination in which they currently reside.
 
What exactly do you think I am twisting? Feel free to report me. I have reached the conclusion that it’s impossible to have a discussion on any religious topic without offending someone.
You are confusing a lot of things right now.

Back in the days of the OT, before Christ came, people weren’t saved yet. They went to the “Bosom of Abraham” which was a special place in hell where those who died in God’s favor were protected from the pit of the damned. However, the Jewish Church was the true Church of God. Then when Christ came, he fulfilled the Old Covenant rendering it’s laws moot, meaning that anyone who followed Christ were freed from the Old Laws. Christ established new Laws and established a new Church that became the new one true Church of God (the Church of Christ), which is the Catholic Church. After Christ’s death, he freed the souls in “Abraham’s Bosom” who were resurrected with him and walked among the people. Then Christ took them to heaven with him. They were saved by Christ, like all those who are saved are.

Now, for those left alive after Christ’s resurrection, it was through the Church that people are led to Christ to be saved. So, salvation only comes through Christ’s Church, whose visible body is that of the Catholic Church. But there are those who are not part of the visible Church, but still a part of the invisible Body of Christ (the invisible Church). The invisible Church consists of those who sincerely try to follow God and Christ by way of his visible Church, but may also consist of those who sincerely try to follow God and Christ, but are outside the visible Church.

Now, this means that it is possible to be saved while outside the visible Catholic Church, yes. However, the farther from the visible body of the Catholic Church you get, the less likely it is. So, possible, yes, but not as likely. So, to become a part of the Catholic Church and follow Her teachings is to be more assured of your salvation.

The analogy I like to use is people on top of a mountain that are to trek down the side of the mountain where the goal is to get down as safely as possible. There is an experienced guide at the top of the mountain. If you do all that he says, you will make it down without harm. If you only half listen to what he says, while you may make it down alive, it would not have been a pleasant journey as you would likely sustain some injuries on the way down. If you are following the group down, but not listening to the guide, there is an even less likely chance that you will make it down without injury, and you could possibly misstep and not make it down alive. And if you completely ignore the guide and go off on your own, making your own path down the mountain side, it is least likely that you’ll survive the trip. You may even decide the best way to get down is to just jump off the side of the mountain. Even though there is a slim chance you could make it down alive, it wouldn’t be without injury, and it wouldn’t be something that I would place my bets on. I’d rather stick with the experienced guide and do my best to follow what he says, so that I am most assured that I’ll make it down alive. I’ll likely fail to listen sometimes, and maybe scratch my knees, but as long as I keep at it and do my best, I’ll make it down.
 
The invisible Church consists of those who sincerely try to follow God and Christ by way of his visible Church, but may also consist of those who sincerely try to follow God and Christ, but are outside the visible Church.

Now, this means that it is possible to be saved while outside the visible Catholic Church, yes.
Case closed.
 
Premise: Jesus was a person
Premise: Jesus is in heaven
Premise: Jesus was not a christian
Premise: Jesus was not a catholic
Premise: Jesus was not a follower of Jesus

The premises are not mine. Three of them are direct quotes from what you posted. The conclusion is inevitable. Remove any of the premises or add loopholes to them and I’ll revise the conclusion.

Just a reminder, the original question was: To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic
Jesus is God. We are not God, therefore we must be obedient to his teachings. The Catbolic Church is obedient to Christ teachings and will not waiver. The truth cannot be changed or it would not be the truth. Jesus handed us the truth through the establishment of the Church since 37AD. He gave Peter authority over this Church. Yes, the Church says salvation is possible outside of joining the official Catholic Church. It is possible, not guaranteed according to what we know or have been handed down through the centuries. On the other hand, it is guaranteed that by living faithfully by the Catholic Church’s teachings, you will no doubt inherit The Kingdom of Heaven
 
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